Messi

Some amount of nonsense on this thread.

Both Ronaldo and Messi are terrific players. As was Maradona, Cruyff, Pele, etc.

You can’t win matches without a team around you, simple. Ronaldo has a well drilled and organised Portugal team alongside him. Messi has some world class company up front, but back to middle they are nothing short of appalling. The 3rd goal summed it up for me, no heart, desire, etc. Mascherano and Otamendi in particular were a disgrace.

Lastly, you cannot define a players greatness or otherwise on little moments within a tournament or a game. Messi (and Ronaldo) have performed at an amazing standard for a decade now. This for me puts them both above guys like the Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona, who could only dream of that consistency and longevity.
 
Jimmy the Gent said:
It's anything but bollocks, an average side will still create chances for him and he will score.

To call him a goal poacher and say he has been for years is idiotic, only a mentally deficient would come away with such dross.
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No it’s 100% true, how many moments of individual brilliance has he had in recent years? They’re few and far between. And he’s never played in an average side either so you can’t prove that either way.
 
Sheamaker said:
In the first round of fixtures Messi covered less ground that every single outfield player that played 90 mins this tournament.

It was so low that 2 goalkeepers covered more ground off the ball than Messi.

Going by today's game I wouldn't be surprised to see similar statistics again.

Yet he too busy crying because other teams dare to defend and not let him play.
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Where do u see that stat mate? Don't doubt u, just looking to use as part of a 'debate'.
 
Ronaldo is going to “outstay” Messi to use a horse racing description. They’ve been very even for a while, I’d have chosen Messi every time up until the last couple of years. Ronaldo is eclipsing him and this tournament is a microcosm of that.

Both in slightly above average sides. One is capable of dragging his over the line, the other isn’t it seems. The difference is work rate.Theres a marked difference in both players work rate this tournament.
 
Jjbscotty said:
This “only one club” stick that he gets hit with is ridiculous, so staying at one club for his full career is a negative? Also if it wasnt for higuians woeful finishing in 2014 he would be a world cup winner, he is the best player of his generation by some distance.
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Only when Ronald O is away collecting his ballon D'or. :D:cool:
 
Jacrispy said:
If Argentina’s 86 squad handed goals away like Caballero tonight Maradona wouldn’t have won a thing with them. Misty eyed nostalgic nonsense, right up there with the “won a Scuddeto on his own” guff.
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It was a better defence, I’ll give you that, but it was still a squad of comparatively average players.

In fact, it didn’t even have a striker of the calibre of Aguero, and guys like Di Maria, Dyballa and Mascherano are arguably better than anything they had in ‘86.

The winning it single handedly thing is clearly poetic license, but name me any other player who dominated a World Cup as comprehensively as Maradona did that year.

That was his legacy. Without it, we wouldn’t be talking about him as the greatest of all time, yet he did it when the weight of expectation, not just in his own country but the entire planet was on his shoulders.

That’s true greatness in my book.
 
Mview83 said:
Ronaldo is going to “outstay” Messi to use a horse racing description. They’ve been very even for a while, I’d have chosen Messi every time up until the last couple of years. Ronaldo is eclipsing him and this tournament is a microcosm of that.

Both in slightly above average sides. One is capable of dragging his over the line, the other isn’t it seems. The difference is work rate.Theres a marked difference in both players work rate this tournament.
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Messi scored more and had more assists in the season just passed.
 
Mview83 said:
Ronaldo is going to “outstay” Messi to use a horse racing description. They’ve been very even for a while, I’d have chosen Messi every time up until the last couple of years. Ronaldo is eclipsing him and this tournament is a microcosm of that.

Both in slightly above average sides. One is capable of dragging his over the line, the other isn’t it seems. The difference is work rate.Theres a marked difference in both players work rate this tournament.
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I’d say it’s desire rather than workrate. Ronaldo probably does less graft than Messi on the pitch but his will to win and to demand more from his teammates definitely surpasses Messi’s at the moment
 
omegaman said:
The same was true of Maradona, yet he won a World Cup almost single handedly.
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Are people actually still hitting out with this shit?

http://www.averageopposition.com/2012/03/the-myth-of-maradona.html

It's hilarious that all of a sudden Ronaldo is a better player than Messi because he scored an overhead kick against Juventus and has 4 goals in the World Cup! :D

Just forget about the rest of the season eh?

If we're saying that Messi is past his peak then that may well be true...can't see anybody topping 91 goals in a calendar year...how many has 'the greatest goalscorer of all time' Ronaldo scored?
 
The Predator said:
I think this is a fair summary
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Messi has never nose dived and I don't think 2 games in a world cup quite counts as a nose dive. Ronaldo had an utterly shambolic 6 months where folk were ready to write him off but he came through it and has hit exceptional form.

I'm not sure what stage you're referring to that Ronaldo has hit that Messi hasn't, especially given Messi won the golden boot this year. Is it just because he's scored a free kick in what in the bigger picture is quite a meaningless game?
 
90minsofmadness said:
Messi has never nose dived and I don't think 2 games in a world cup quite counts as a nose dive. Ronaldo had an utterly shambolic 6 months where folk were ready to write him off but he came through it and has hit exceptional form.

I'm not sure what stage you're referring to that Ronaldo has hit that Messi hasn't, especially given Messi won the golden boot this year. Is it just because he's scored a free kick in what in the bigger picture is quite a meaningless game?
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It amazes me how polarising the Messi/Ronaldo argument is. You’ve just said Ronaldo has ‘just’ scored a free kick so far in this tournament?
 
minder said:
Ronaldo has proved himself in 3 countries and on the international stage.Can score with both feet and his head.
Messi just isn't on the same level as Ronaldo.Still a fantastic player though just not as good as Ronaldo
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What did he prove in Portugal with Lisbon?

Portugal won the Euros after finishing 3rd in their group (without a win) and they won the final when Ronaldo went off injured.

Had Higuain scored an easy chance in 2014 Messi would have a World Cup medal to add to his collection but it wouldn't really change the debate about who's better.

You're saying Ronaldo can shoot with both feet and header a ball. He can only dream of having Messi's range of passing or dribbling ability though.

Also worth remembering that Ronaldo's 3 years older than Messi so we'll see how their careers look when it's all said and done for both of them.
 
Mview83 said:
It amazes me how polarising the Messi/Ronaldo argument is. You’ve just said Messi has ‘just’ scored a free kick so far in this tournament?
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I really like Ronaldo and it was an incredible moment and performance but football ability/technique wise that was only thing he has done that was exceptional.
 
dt17 said:
Are people actually still hitting out with this shit?

http://www.averageopposition.com/2012/03/the-myth-of-maradona.html

Yup, me.

As said above, name me any other player who has dominated a World Cup finals as comprehensively as Maradona did in ‘86?

If the answer is Puskas, you might have a case; if it’s Pele or Cruyff, you don’t.

Mexico is the reason Maradona is spoken of as the greatest footballer of all time.

Take that out and he’s just another outrageous talent like Best or Laudrup or Ronaldinho.
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Argentina were shit tonight - you can only feel sorry for a talent like Messi in that team. The guy looked totally defeated and that is a sad thing to see.
 
minder said:
Ronaldo has proved himself in 3 countries and on the international stage.Can score with both feet and his head.
Messi just isn't on the same level as Ronaldo.Still a fantastic player though just not as good as Ronaldo
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That’s just silly.

Ronaldo is a striker. An exceptional one, certainly the best on the planet at the moment and quite possibly of all time, although I think his namesake would have something to say about that, but fundamentally that’s what he is - a scorer of goals.

Yet for many it seems that doing so is how they equate greatness, by which logic Kris Boyd should rightfully be thought of as one of the greatest Rangers players of all time.

No?
 
dt17 said:
What did he prove in Portugal with Lisbon?

Portugal won the Euros after finishing 3rd in their group (without a win) and they won the final when Ronaldo went off injured.

Had Higuain scored an easy chance in 2014 Messi would have a World Cup medal to add to his collection but it wouldn't really change the debate about who's better.

You're saying Ronaldo can shoot with both feet and header a ball. He can only dream of having Messi's range of passing or dribbling ability though.

Also worth remembering that Ronaldo's 3 years older than Messi so we'll see how their careers look when it's all said and done for both of them.
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Obviously enough for sir Alex to want to bring him to United.

And if yer aunty had baws she’d be your uncle, he didn’t so tough shot , Ronaldo has accomplished more than Messi and done more at all levels which means he surpasses Messi in my book.
 
Wishbone said:
He is a brilliant player playing in an average International team as is Ronaldo. These guys drag their countries through to major finals on their own.
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Aye Argentina have average players messi aguero di Maria among others.

I'm not really into the debate but to say Argentina are average? Not so sure. They should be performing way better. Are the players of Argentina always expecting more from messi
 
omegaman said:
That’s just silly.

Ronaldo is a striker. An exceptional one, certainly the best on the planet at the moment and quite possibly of all time, although I think his namesake would have something to say about that, but fundamentally that’s what he is - a scorer of goals.

Yet for many it seems that doing so is how they equate greatness, by which logic Kris Boyd should rightfully be thought of as one of the greatest Rangers players of all time.

No?
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What I would say is that had Boyd stayed with us instead of heading south he wouldn't have been a million miles away from Derek Johnstones total.McCoists would maybe have been too much.
So in theory I'm tired now and not making much sense
 
Jdb2005 said:
Aye Argentina have average players messi aguero di Maria among others.

I'm not really into the debate but to say Argentina are average? Not so sure. They should be performing way better. Are the players of Argentina always expecting more from messi
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Who are the “others”?

Aside from Higuain there are no other stand out players in that squad. And by the way Di Maria’s been poor for Argentina for years and apparently wasn’t tearing it up in France this season either.

Buglia, Acuña, Tagliafico, Meza, Perez, mercado, Cabellero? 90 year old Mascherano?

I’m willing to be the vast majority of this forum hadn’t seen any of the above (Caballero and Masch aside) perform before this tournament begun. They don’t have a divine right to be winning games just because they’ve got a few world class attackers. Their midfield was comprehensively dominated tonight by two players far beyond what they have in there in Rakitic and Modric.
 
Why does it bother some people on here so much?:D it reminds me of how serious I used to take people trying to compare lemon to Ferguson when I was a kid haha. Ferguson was in a different class to be fair:D
 
thomsonstackle said:
Why does it bother some people on here so much?:D it reminds me of how serious I used to take people trying to compare lemon to Ferguson when I was a kid haha. Ferguson was in a different class to be fair:D
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I don’t remember anyone making those comparisons, did you go to a tim school? :D
 
Jacrispy said:
Who are the “others”?

Aside from Higuain there are no other stand out players in that squad. And by the way Di Maria’s been poor for Argentina for years and apparently wasn’t tearing it up in France this season either.

Buglia, Acuña, Tagliafico, Meza, Perez, mercado, Cabellero? 90 year old Mascherano?

I’m willing to be the vast majority of this forum hadn’t seen any of the above (Caballero and Masch aside) perform before this tournament begun. They don’t have a divine right to be winning games just because they’ve got a few world class attackers. Their midfield was comprehensively dominated tonight by two players far beyond what they have in there in Rakitic and Modric.
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The performances are not a surprise. It's been discussed for some time in the Argentina Football thread - though I have to say that was even worse than anticipated.

It's sad to see how it's ending for a number of players. Ultimately, though, they shouldn't have been picked.

https://www.followfollow.com/forum/threads/argentine-superliga.41/
 
As daft as it sound sometimes Ronaldo and Messi's physical difference comes into it . Ronaldos height allows him to be played as the lone front man/target man which helps his versatility and it's been proved as he's played in various positions for different clubs.

Messi is unique and I think he needs other people to be on the same wavelength as him to fully utilise him. He has done alot on his own for both club and country it's just when he's poor he looks second best to Ronaldo, but when you compare the stats they're really not that different.

You can pump balls into the box and Ronaldo will probably get a head on it eventually as it's proved with Madrid over the past few years. He's always there to score and its no coincidence that Ronaldos recent form has been whilst Madrid have a brilliant team...As was Messi when Barca were ruling Europe!

If anything Messi being the smaller, less physical/athletic type should be admired more because he's achieved everything he has done whilst being so small. That doesnt mean he's better, but just because they're leagues above everyone else doesn't mean they should be compared as like for like..they're completely different!
 
BrooklynBlue said:
The performances are not a surprise. It's been discussed for some time in the Argentina Football thread - though I have to say that was even worse than anticipated.

It's sad to see how it's ending for a number of players. Ultimately, though, they shouldn't have been picked.

https://www.followfollow.com/forum/threads/argentine-superliga.41/
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Too right.

They got scudded 6-1 off Spain not so long ago. Now even if you put Messi in that game, he’s not defending to stop 6 goals flying in up the other end is he. I think anyone who watched the qualifiers and watched that game saw this coming. Hence why I thought they’d bomb.

The rest of them (especially Caballero and Sampoili) are lucky they get to hide behind Messi as he takes all the flak and all the jibes.
 
I enjoy both watching both, and many others who aren’t quite on same level.

Best around just now? Ronaldo by a distance.

Best ever? Probably Ronaldo but I never watched Pele and the greats of the 60’s and 70’s. Would be astounded if any of then come close across all attributes.
 
Chester Loyal said:
Argentina have been in the final of 6 of the last 9 tournaments they’ve entered. If Higuian wasn’t a bottle merchant then they’d have won most of them too.
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Second is nothing.

Can’t see a top player sitting back in retirement being hugely proud of a stack of runners up medals.

Pinnacle of the club career is the champions league 4:3 to Ronaldo. ;)
 
Papa Sasac said:
I enjoy both watching both, and many others who aren’t quite on same level.

Best around just now? Ronaldo by a distance.

Best ever? Probably Ronaldo but I never watched Pele and the greats of the 60’s and 70’s. Would be astounded if any of then come close across all attributes.
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As disappointing as Messi’s been at these finals so far, I’m still always bemused that anyone can genuinely think Ronaldo, or anyone else for that matter, is a better footballer.

I’ll put it this way. Messi can pretty much do all the things that make people salivate over Ronaldo, namely: score lots and lots and lots of goals, but can Ronaldo do what Messi can?

Can he pick the ball up deep when nothing much appears on, suddenly accelerate past 3 or 4 defenders in a mazy dribble before curling one into the back of the net?

Can anyone?

And that for me is the difference.
It’s what sets Messi apart from every other player on the planet and it’s why I find the comparisons actually quite bizarre.
 
Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria and Dybala. Firepower on a par, or certainly in the same ballpark as any other team in the tournament. Hundreds of millions of pounds of talent at current market value.

You'd think Messi was playing for Panama the way some are trying to insinuate he's surrounded by muck :D

Bottom line:

GOAT is all about perception and opinion therefore there's no right or wrong answer imo. Messi and Ronaldo both have equal merit to being the GOAT if you're looking at stats, I don't have a problem with anyone who prefers either.

If Ronaldo leads Portugal to the WC in the next couple of weeks though and continues this form, I think he'll have the edge and you'll see more and more people coming out and backing him.
 
Is it just me that thinks Ronaldo absolutely loves playing for his country and right now it looks like Messi hasn't got the same desire. Messi is one of my fave players but he just looks tired and fed up
 
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