Murdo Fraser writes to Humza re 'hanging effigies'

Disco Deejay

Well-Known Member
These things are signed in and out as they meander their merry way through the legal system.There will no doubt be an audit trail as to where it went and when.
Correct, in a perfect world.

However, cctv images are likely to be contained on a memory stick, kept in a Productions (Evidence) Store. It wouldn't be too difficult for someone who knows what they are looking for to remove it, without it being recorded anywhere.
 
Correct, in a perfect world.

However, cctv images are likely to be contained on a memory stick, kept in a Productions (Evidence) Store. It wouldn't be too difficult for someone who knows what they are looking for to remove it, without it being recorded anywhere.
Would then be suspicion on everyone who had access to it. Surely everyone who had access to evidence would be known, and that would be a starting point for investigation?
 

Fingers1872

Well-Known Member
I’m really pissed off with this missing/ lost evidence shit. IF these files have gone from a server that is backed up by the COFPS back up system then then if it is ONLY those files it is corruption rather than a mistake.

It takes real dedicated effort to go onto a server and delete files, not just these particular files but their copies on the archive system. If they don’t have a system like this I will buy us Ryan Kent. I’m sure there is much more to this story than we are being told. IT experts on here please (no pun intended) back me up on this.
If it transpires evidence has been deleted then surely someone would have had to log on to do so? That being the case they should easily be found, that is if the relevant authorities want to find them. This has happened on Humza' s watch, he should bare the ultimate responsibility but given he's part of the cult I very much doubt that would happen.
 

ghoulishworm

Well-Known Member
If it transpires evidence has been deleted then surely someone would have had to log on to do so? That being the case they should easily be found, that is if the relevant authorities want to find them. This has happened on Humza' s watch, he should bare the ultimate responsibility but given he's part of the cult I very much doubt that would happen.
As I stated earlier in the thread Fingers,this cultist is hidden and protected within the p.f.s' offices so therefore there is no chance of it being named and charged.
 

Disco Deejay

Well-Known Member
Would then be suspicion on everyone who had access to it. Surely everyone who had access to evidence would be known, and that would be a starting point for investigation?
Correct.

It should be easy to trace who lodged the production, where it was lodged, any time it was removed and by whom (if recorded).

The problem arises if it has been removed but not recorded. In that case, the investigation has to begin when it was last recorded as having been seen. Unfortunately if that was months ago, there are likely to have been a large number of people who have had access to the Productions Store (lodging/removing for examination/removing for Court etc of other productions).

Whilst it is possible that someone removed it and misplaced it, I would consider it more likely that someone has deliberately removed it and destroyed it. It's hard to believe that someone would risk both their job and a prison sentence to do this, but realistically the chances of getting caught are minimal.

It would be interesting to find out if it was lost by the Police or the PF, which shouldn't be too difficult for them to establish.

I don't live in Scotland, but someone familiar with FOI Requests may wish to ask Police Scotland if they lost it.
 
Correct, in a perfect world.

However, cctv images are likely to be contained on a memory stick, kept in a Productions (Evidence) Store. It wouldn't be too difficult for someone who knows what they are looking for to remove it, without it being recorded anywhere.
Surely the evidence on the memory stick is just a certified copy of the original.The original could be revisited(presumably TV coverage) There are any number of versions available Youtube etc.My understanding is that the original effigies have gone missing.Not quite sure, but clarification would be appreciated.In any event, where there's a will there's a way.
 

Disco Deejay

Well-Known Member
Surely the evidence on the memory stick is just a certified copy of the original.The original could be revisited(presumably TV coverage) There are any number of versions available Youtube etc.My understanding is that the original effigies have gone missing.Not quite sure, but clarification would be appreciated.In any event, where there's a will there's a way.
Unless I have missed anything, they have been very coy about exactly what has went missing, the circumstances and why it lead to the prosecution being dropped.

The whole thing stinks.
 
If there’s any good to come out of this it’s that it may just open peoples eyes to the grip these papist bastards have on our wee country.
My memory may be shit here but I thought the club actually came out and condemned these effigies after the match making a fairly strong public statement. Makes me wonder if they are making representations in the background
 

rossgers

Well-Known Member
My memory may be shit here but I thought the club actually came out and condemned these effigies after the match making a fairly strong public statement. Makes me wonder if they are making representations in the background
The club did condemn it but doubt they are doing anything. I also remember lawell said they were 'investigating'. We know how that works.
 

Jan Žižka

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling GG, got the reply in a doc on the desktop, i've tried to copy the link into a post but it won't go blue and open. See below.
file:///C:/Users/Colin/Desktop/Lord%20Advocate%20Reply%20(2).pdf
I'm not being wide mate, are you copying the link at the top of the page?

Copy from where it says "Dear...

Scroll down with your copy until they sign off with their name, then paste in here. Delete your real name from it after pasting in here and before you submit the post.

Hope this helps and if not, just ignore this.
 

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
Correct, in a perfect world.

However, cctv images are likely to be contained on a memory stick, kept in a Productions (Evidence) Store. It wouldn't be too difficult for someone who knows what they are looking for to remove it, without it being recorded anywhere.
Sorry but that is nonsense.

The proper conduct for exhibits such as this, is that they are booked into a secure store that is controlled by staff, then placed in a designated area that relates to their book entry, and after that, no one can access them, other than through the staff at a point of control and only with the correct authorisation and again then only after properly signing them out, stating named authorisation proof of identity and clearly submitting the reason for removal, such as court or for forensic examination.

At least that is what happens in a properly run justice system.

Any loss inside a system like this would require a major enquiry to discover the reason, and no doubt discipline proceedings or criminal charges might follow.
 

Disco Deejay

Well-Known Member
Sorry but that is nonsense.

The proper conduct for exhibits such as this, is that they are booked into a secure store that is controlled by staff, then placed in a designated area that relates to their book entry, and after that, no one can access them, other than through the staff at a point of control and only with the correct authorisation and again then only after properly signing them out, stating named authorisation proof of identity and clearly submitting the reason for removal, such as court or for forensic examination.

At least that is what happens in a properly run justice system.

Any loss inside a system like this would require a major enquiry to discover the reason, and no doubt discipline proceedings or criminal charges might follow.
You state that my post is nonsense, apparently with nothing to back it up, as you then mention what happens in a properly run justice system.

I can assure you that the Scottish Criminal Justice System is not properly run and stand my post, which I know is correct.

In a properly run system, the Productions would not have gone missing causing the trial to be abandoned.

With 22 years involvement in the Scottish Criminal Justice System and 9 in the English System, I could tell you some horror stories involving Productions that would make front page headlines.
 

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
You state that my post is nonsense, apparently with nothing to back it up, as you then mention what happens in a properly run justice system.

I can assure you that the Scottish Criminal Justice System is not properly run and stand my post, which I know is correct.

In a properly run system, the Productions would not have gone missing causing the trial to be abandoned.

With 22 years involvement in the Scottish Criminal Justice System and 9 in the English System, I could tell you some horror stories involving Productions that would make front page headlines.
You said that it wouldn't be too difficult for an item like this to be removed.
My contention is that it would.
Or it should be, for exactly the reasons I have stated.

I can confirm that this doesn't happen in London without there following an enquiry that would lead to either discipline or criminal charges.
There has to someone who would have to answer for such a disappearance.

I don't know what experience you have in England, but if it was London, you must know this.
 

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
@Disco Deejay and @bilkobear I think if you both take a step back you will see you are both on similar pages re the 'loss'.

I remain convinced there is a Person Of Interest on that list of preparators that couldn't afford to go on trial for the bad pr that would result - a famous father or mother of the taigothy cult.
I know we are, it was rather just a matter of semantics.
 

George Goudie

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
I'm struggling GG, got the reply in a doc on the desktop, i've tried to copy the link into a post but it won't go blue and open. See below.
file:///C:/Users/Colin/Desktop/Lord%20Advocate%20Reply%20(2).pdf
If you upload the file to a free image hosting site it will give you a link to put it on message boards.

Tinypic etc.
 

BSPECIAL

Well-Known Member
@Disco Deejay and @bilkobear I think if you both take a step back you will see you are both on similar pages re the 'loss'.

I remain convinced there is a Person Of Interest on that list of preparators that couldn't afford to go on trial for the bad pr that would result - a famous father or mother of the taigothy cult.
Agreed 100%. Someone or a family member of somebody with a bit of clout is involved hence the cover up/dropped case. This whole charade humsa shite.There is no way evidence gets lost with todays technology. The powers that be are treating law abiding folk with contempt. If only we had a justice minister who was interested in justice for all societies and not the ones that interest him.As I say this case humsa shite.
 

Fingers1872

Well-Known Member
Agreed 100%. Someone or a family member of somebody with a bit of clout is involved hence the cover up/dropped case. This whole charade humsa shite.There is no way evidence gets lost with todays technology. The powers that be are treating law abiding folk with contempt. If only we had a justice minister who was interested in justice for all societies and not the ones that interest him.As I say this case humsa shite.
You only have to look back 7 or 8 years for similar, a tarrier with an influencial relative got 4 years for glassing a barman in Barcelona. His name was never revealed, the whole thing stank, Dr Death's influence was mentioned several times. His identity was even covered by the foreign office who refused to disclose who it was via an FOI letter.
 

GourockBlue50

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
How can they claim to lose evidence when the pictures including pictures of folk close to the scene were plastered all over the media & social media, they use photographic evidence from just about anywhere to gain convictions, so why ignore what is already out there.
Same if there were any witness statements lost. Just get t done again.

The whole scenario stinks.
 

BlueNose94

Well-Known Member
@Disco Deejay and @bilkobear I think if you both take a step back you will see you are both on similar pages re the 'loss'.

I remain convinced there is a Person Of Interest on that list of preparators that couldn't afford to go on trial for the bad pr that would result - a famous father or mother of the taigothy cult.
I think that your right. It did actually cross my mind that it’s definitely a person of interest. I’ll never believe the evidence was lost.
 
I think in all of this the crux of the matter is that while the prosecution has been shelved, there has not been an adequate explanation by the Crown Office as to why.I appreciate that the CO is god's country and they can do pretty much what they like.In a case such as this, where there was clear anti Protestant bias it would be in the public interest not only to show why it did not proceed, but also the reasons.It would not be so if it were the other way round or god forbid involved some multicultural organisation.
 
@Disco Deejay and @bilkobear I think if you both take a step back you will see you are both on similar pages re the 'loss'.

I remain convinced there is a Person Of Interest on that list of preparators that couldn't afford to go on trial for the bad pr that would result - a famous father or mother of the taigothy cult.
GG , you are thinking this person is related to the loss of evidence or one of the original people involved in the original incidents at Celtic Park ?
 

George Goudie

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
GG , you are thinking this person is related to the loss of evidence or one of the original people involved in the original incidents at Celtic Park ?
Not sure what I was thinking. It just seems a hell of risk to take. Dismissal and a criminal record a distinct possibility to those that assisted in making the evidence disappear. High risk - something made it worth that risk. I just think it was to protect a 'person' of significant standing that could be ruined by the bad PR it could bring them.
 
I may have missed it, but has it been made public what the failure to proceed has been.In law the Crown Office have two options.One is to desert the case Simpliciter(final and never to be brought up again)or Pro loco et tempore(deserted for the meantime, but the Crown reserves the right to proceed at a later date). In any event, the public have the right to know.If it's the latter, it would show a desire to make amends and to try to get the case back on it's feet again.If it's the former, then it probably fills in a number of blanks and justifies our suspicions.
 

Britvic55

Well-Known Member
Maybe its simpler GG , maybe its that the evidence of events that day at CP shows they were facilitated by the host club .
Would that detail become publicly available at the conclusion of the legal case ?
This for me. CFC would have been embarrassed by the trial and the evidence produced at the trial.

It's CFC that have benefitted here, maybe more so than the actual accused.
 

ghoulishworm

Well-Known Member
bumpety bump back to page 1.
So this case is just being allowed to wither and die,something stinks about this,surely our esteemed justice minister can use his influence and assure justice for all (he said in his nievety)
 

Purplestar

Well-Known Member
This thread was started on 22nd March and we are now nearing the middle of July without Mr Humza Useless being taken to task.

We need to keep this on page 1 but it is probably difficult due to the lack of information that is available on the current proceedings.

Is Murdo Fraser the only high profile name that is chasing this matter(?) and how can we all help to put more pressure on Humza as he does not reply to emails because the guy is nothing short of a bigot that is being protected by a gang of anti Protestant/Unionist bigots.

The pressure is seriously on this whole SNP/SF gang and we really need to ramp it up properly.

We can't let this disappear without trace like the taigs would like in all the matters that they get called out on.

Keep the fight up.
 

ghoulishworm

Well-Known Member
This thread was started on 22nd March and we are now nearing the middle of July without Mr Humza Useless being taken to task.

We need to keep this on page 1 but it is probably difficult due to the lack of information that is available on the current proceedings.

Is Murdo Fraser the only high profile name that is chasing this matter(?) and how can we all help to put more pressure on Humza as he does not reply to emails because the guy is nothing short of a bigot that is being protected by a gang of anti Protestant/Unionist bigots.

The pressure is seriously on this whole SNP/SF gang and we really need to ramp it up properly.

We can't let this disappear without trace like the taigs would like in all the matters that they get called out on.

Keep the fight up.
That is exactly the attitude Purplestar,how do we get a reply from a ahem justice minister who repeatedly ignores our emails,and don't be kidded here,he sees and reads them or he has a login for this site,humza right enough,humza what though.
 
I think the answer as far as The Scottish Parliament goes lies in the opposition.That's what they're there for, to oppose, pick and find fault with the ruling party of the day.Ruth Davidson and Prof Tomkins have made a start, but they too should be pressured into doing what is essentially their job.There is bags of evidence/material for them to get their teeth into and there should be no real excuse.I fully support them, but let's be honest, they have barely scratched the surface of what is really well and truly an open goal.
 

ghoulishworm

Well-Known Member
I think the answer as far as The Scottish Parliament goes lies in the opposition.That's what they're there for, to oppose, pick and find fault with the ruling party of the day.Ruth Davidson and Prof Tomkins have made a start, but they too should be pressured into doing what is essentially their job.There is bags of evidence/material for them to get their teeth into and there should be no real excuse.I fully support them, but let's be honest, they have barely scratched the surface of what is really well and truly an open goal.
Like you Double A I think there is a wealth of information if you know where to look.
 

BlueNose94

Well-Known Member
I think the answer as far as The Scottish Parliament goes lies in the opposition.That's what they're there for, to oppose, pick and find fault with the ruling party of the day.Ruth Davidson and Prof Tomkins have made a start, but they too should be pressured into doing what is essentially their job.There is bags of evidence/material for them to get their teeth into and there should be no real excuse.I fully support them, but let's be honest, they have barely scratched the surface of what is really well and truly an open goal.
I agree double A. Let’s just hope the reason they are taking their time is due to the fact they are getting it right behind the scenes.
And you would expect a professor of law to do his homework properly.
As frustrating as it is their day will come.
 
Can't imagine for a minute that a guy so qualified as the Prof would have got involved at all unless he saw an eventual result in all of this.I forgot to include in my entry above that the primary purpose of the opposition is to hold the government to account.Accountablity should be their watchword and they should be called out on it in open debate.
 

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