Murty’s Substitutions

Its the Kilmarnock game that sticks out the most for me. We were backs to the wall from about the 50th minute, he just stood and watched when everyone could see we needed another body in midfield to tighten up. He waited until we were 2-1 down and then brought on a striker around the 83rd minute!
 
The most persistent criticism on here about Graham Murray is that he leaves substitutions too late.

To be fair it’s always a criticism any manager has to live with because he can never disprove the premise that if so and so had come on 20 minutes earlier for so and so we’d have won at a canter.

However, where many managers make subs religiously on the hour mark, Murty’s norm is to wait til 70 or 75 mins. So, is he really a complete imbecile as the experts on here would have it or is there a reason for this? I don’t think this is coincidence and I don’t think Murty is the sort of guy to go against common football “wisdom” just for the sake of it. He comes across as much smarter than that.

I wondered if he’s done some analysis that suggests later subs have more of an impact. The only thing I can think of is it maximises the impact of fresh legs because the opposition is slightly more tired and because the player coming on can expend energy at an even higher sustained rate. Leaving it later probably has an even more defined advantage but not having it long enough weakens the overall chance of a goal.

Or are we going with the “He’s just a youth coach who doesn’t know what he’s doing” argument?

Any thoughts?

He more or less explained his thought process re subs in his post match interview yesterday.
I'm not tech savvy enough to be able to post a link to the Rangers website but it's easy enough to find.
The gist was that he puts his trust in the guys he selected to start that they will find a way to win the game.
 
I, personally, don’t think he uses his subs well at all, however yesterday we won relatively comfortably so not a big deal. Modern game allows 3 subs and waiting til 15 mins to go must be frustrating for players on what was a strong bench yesterday.
 
I get the Doc one simply because he had earned that ovation going off the park but you'll never convince that Morelos going off instead of Windass yesterday was the right call.

Windass was having one of those games where nothing went right for him Murty should have noticed that and subbed him earlier. Was surprised at the Morelos sub as he was working their defence and causing problems and creating space for others.
Great result yesterday all the same and we limited them to very few chances.
 
And only after JC had warmed up for five minutes.
Really believe the subs should be keeping themselves ready to go on and make a difference for most of the second half. It's asking for trouble if you put a sub on who hasn't stretched and warmed up beforehand, Murty puzzles me.
For me, that's the job of the assistant and coaches.

And, god forbid, players take a bit of responsibility.
 
Murty’s inability to substitute Windass when he has off days like yesterday does himself, nor Windass, any favours.

His substitutions in general do seem a bit strange. They always seem badly timed or it feels like he takes the wrong player off. Hopefully it’s something he can learn as we move forward.

Nope, Windass can't be subbed in case it hurts his feelings or he goes in the huff or similar shite. There's an element of 'The King's New Clothes' around the Windass appreciation society. He makes terrific runs at times, he scores regularly if he gets enough chances served up. But yesterday he just wasn't having a good day and like every other player he should've been subbed - for the good of the team.
Also, has anyone ever seen him make a decent tackle? He just cannot position his body to win the ball. And before anyone starts fabricating straw-men, I don't want him "flying into 50/50s' or similar.
 
Even if Murty is only an under 21 coach and out his depth he's still more knowledgeable than 99.9% on here and also has support network working with him on decisions. We might not agree with his decisions but he does generally know better than us
 
Every manager seems to have their favourite players and windass seems to be murty's.

I believe if your having a bad day then your having a bad day, we all get them. I would hook a player a lot earlier if a player just at the races that day just like Advocat did with Ricksen, against the filth after about 20 mins.
 
Even if Murty is only an under 21 coach and out his depth he's still more knowledgeable than 99.9% on here and also has support network working with him on decisions. We might not agree with his decisions but he does generally know better than us


He's clearly not out his depth and I'd possibly increase the 99.9% to 100%.

With each game that passes Murty has got the team playing more and more as he wants them too.

Don't really see any great controversy with his substitutions.
 
Every manager seems to have their favourite players and windass seems to be murty's.

I believe if your having a bad day then your having a bad day, we all get them. I would hook a player a lot earlier if a player just at the races that day just like Advocat did with Ricksen, against the filth after about 20 mins.

The problem is Windass isn't just a favourite, Murty's built the entire gameplan around him.

Windass HAS improved but he's still nowhere near good enough to build your team around or be undroppable. Yesterday was yet another game at Ibrox where he's failed to deliver. Fine banging in hat tricks at Fraserburgh and Hamilton but he's got to do it in the big games at home as well.
 
Every manager seems to have their favourite players and windass seems to be murty's.

I believe if your having a bad day then your having a bad day, we all get them. I would hook a player a lot earlier if a player just at the races that day just like Advocat did with Ricksen, against the filth after about 20 mins.

Not so long ago we were being told it was Holt. Oh, then it was Miller.:rolleyes:

The truth is he's picking what he considers the best team to get the job done. Nothing more. No favourites, no cliques - just an honest assessment of who should be selected by the man who gets sacked if it goes wrong.
 
Windass has been a first choice player for every manager since he arrived
And with his form recently you can see why

That said yesterday wasn’t his day and he should have come off instead of Morelos. Assume Murty wanted to keep the same shape of the team though and having Morelos and Cummings on would’ve changed that
 
I felt he got it wrong yesterday, as daft as that sounds.

We were lucky Hearts weren’t able to exploit it but better teams will be able to, like Hibs already have.

How he’s taking Morelos and Docherty off before Windass was incredible. Holt should have been on for Windass, put Goss slightly in front of the middle two and see the game out.

I find that one bad pass and the opposition are breaking on us far too often.
 
Windass should've been hooked off no later than 60mins. Had a shocker of a game. There's no point being sentimental, just get him off & chalk it up to an off day.

I prefer a manager who changes things in anticipation of situations, not as a final resort.
 
Not so long ago we were being told it was Holt. Oh, then it was Miller.:rolleyes:

The truth is he's picking what he considers the best team to get the job done. Nothing more. No favourites, no cliques - just an honest assessment of who should be selected by the man who gets sacked if it goes wrong.

Think we're discussing substitutions here and identifying who could have been subbed.
And I'll trump your "not so long ago we were being told" with posters on this thread saying we can't sub Windass even when he's ineffective because it may dent his confidence.
It's really, really simple - if a player is not contributing enough then replace him, irrespective of his feelings.
 
The changes yesterday were pretty unpopular amongst the support and i was hoping it didn't backfire on the manager. If Hearts had equalised he would have got slaughtered but happily we added to the score and got the points, deservedly so.
We just have to let Murty do things as he sees fit, he seems to be doing ok just now. If it goes wrong then he can't complain.
 
He more or less explained his thought process re subs in his post match interview yesterday.
I'm not tech savvy enough to be able to post a link to the Rangers website but it's easy enough to find.
The gist was that he puts his trust in the guys he selected to start that they will find a way to win the game.
In all fairness that's a very poor reason. So, if it's not working he'll just hope it will?
 
The most persistent criticism on here about Graham Murray is that he leaves substitutions too late.

To be fair it’s always a criticism any manager has to live with because he can never disprove the premise that if so and so had come on 20 minutes earlier for so and so we’d have won at a canter.

However, where many managers make subs religiously on the hour mark, Murty’s norm is to wait til 70 or 75 mins. So, is he really a complete imbecile as the experts on here would have it or is there a reason for this? I don’t think this is coincidence and I don’t think Murty is the sort of guy to go against common football “wisdom” just for the sake of it. He comes across as much smarter than that.

I wondered if he’s done some analysis that suggests later subs have more of an impact. The only thing I can think of is it maximises the impact of fresh legs because the opposition is slightly more tired and because the player coming on can expend energy at an even higher sustained rate. Leaving it later probably has an even more defined advantage but not having it long enough weakens the overall chance of a goal.

Or are we going with the “He’s just a youth coach who doesn’t know what he’s doing” argument?

Any thoughts?

We would have won at parkheed had he taken off kranjcar sooner I reckon.
 
In all fairness that's a very poor reason. So, if it's not working he'll just hope it will?

Remember, he is primarily a development coach
I reckon he's has the right idea about Windass, i.e. subbing him dents his confidence.
However, Murty is currently not the development coach, he's managing the first team and valid concerns over Josh's confidence should not take precedence over what's best for the team.
If Murty really wants to be the manager he has to be able to sit down with a player and, in the words of Walter Smith, say to him "son, OK is not fuckin' good enough here."
 
In all fairness that's a very poor reason. So, if it's not working he'll just hope it will?

I haven't really did his quote justice.
If you read the full interview he goes into a bit more detail than the small description I've given, and it makes a bit more sense.

Also, I think he's more of an 'arm round the shoulder' modern type of coach as opposed to a firebrand
 
I think Windass was having one of those days when he couldn't do anything right.It was up to Murty to see that and judge whether to replace him. He didn't, in my opinion the wrong choice. If he didn't want to change the shape of the team, a straight swap would have been Miller for Windass and I'm not a fan of Miller but to me that was a no-brainer (probably why I was watching with the Tyneside True Blues in The Black Bull& not in the dug-out:))
 
Yesterday a goal always looked like it was coming and we were playing well so there wasn't such a need to just change it for changes sake. I think he felt it might have upset our rhythm.

Docherty was knackered so fair enough to sub him off and at that time in the game wee Holt is a great option to come on with his energy on the middle of the park.

I would have taken off windass and went with 2 up top but I don't get paid thousands to make these decisions!
I agree Windass was rank in everything he tried except one free kick but I think only an injury would have him subbed,He seems to be Murtys blue eyed boy no matter how poor against so called bigger teams.
 
Remember, he is primarily a development coach
I reckon he's has the right idea about Windass, i.e. subbing him dents his confidence.
However, Murty is currently not the development coach, he's managing the first team and valid concerns over Josh's confidence should not take precedence over what's best for the team.
If Murty really wants to be the manager he has to be able to sit down with a player and, in the words of Walter Smith, say to him "son, OK is not fuckin' good enough here."
I don't suppose it would have done his confidence any good to be completely wasting his chances either. Even Windass himself acknowledged that after the game in a Tweet about wanting his shooting boots. Windass would have known the entire crowd wanted him off but he was kept on regardless. Not confidence inspiring and despite his chirpy tones I think Windass is the kind to dwell on negative feeling. I don't think Murty did Windass any favours and I don't think he did the performance any favours - it could have been a much more comfortable game overall. Thankfully it didn't do us much damage either and we came away with a good result.
 
He's clearly not out his depth and I'd possibly increase the 99.9% to 100%.

With each game that passes Murty has got the team playing more and more as he wants them too.


Don't really see any great controversy with his substitutions.

I agree mate. I don't think he is but people do and that's their opinion. Yeah you are also correct about percentages but I was being generous just in case Walter Smith was lurking on the site
 
Cummings for Morelos definitely weakened us as he simply couldn't hold the ball up against Berra and Soutar the way Morelos did.

Having said that, I know he's trying to give him game time so I do get it.

It does show you though how vital Morelos is to the way we play.
He could have brought Cummings on for Windass much earlier and it would probably have benefited the team as Windass did not have the best of games.
 
Murtys subs could of cost us the 3 points.

Morelos & Docherty should have played 90 mins.

Holt for Windass was the sub to make.
 
Suppose we will just have to accept that managers can make decisions that will never attract total approval. Same applies to those of us who post our opinions on this forum. There were quite a few who thought Pardew would have been a suitable manager for Rangers.
 
I get the Doc one simply because he had earned that ovation going off the park but you'll never convince that Morelos going off instead of Windass yesterday was the right call.
I agree, despite missing chances, he was playing well and giving them problems, the Hertz defenders must have been delighted to see him getting hooked.
 
Think we're discussing substitutions here and identifying who could have been subbed.
And I'll trump your "not so long ago we were being told" with posters on this thread saying we can't sub Windass even when he's ineffective because it may dent his confidence.
It's really, really simple - if a player is not contributing enough then replace him, irrespective of his feelings.

As you well know, my response was a reaction to a statement about Manager's having 'favourites' - and the intimation that was why Windass stayed on - so spare me your nonsense. Quite honestly I don't give a damn who the Manager takes off - if anyone - it's his call and his job on the line.

Windass had a poor game in front of goal yesterday and my expectation was he would be subbed. The Manager decided otherwise. Quite honestly Morelos wasn't doing very well either and it would have been no great surprise to see both Miller and Cummings on for the pair of them. No doubt some would them have had a go about 'shoehorning Miller into the team'!

Fact of the matter is some of our fans can't take to Windass and that drives much of their comment - or lack of it - on his performances, good or bad.

You subscribe to RangersTV mate - have a look at the 15 minute highlights from yesterday. Despite an awful day in front of goal Windass was involved in a lot of the good things we did.
 
He said after the game that he can hear when the fans want change, but he feels as if he’s got to let his players prove themselves.

That worries me a little. He’s a manager, not a social worker.

If he’s not willing to sub certain players, then at least adapt the system.
 
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The problem is Windass isn't just a favourite, Murty's built the entire gameplan around him.

Windass HAS improved but he's still nowhere near good enough to build your team around or be undroppable. Yesterday was yet another game at Ibrox where he's failed to deliver. Fine banging in hat tricks at Fraserburgh and Hamilton but he's got to do it in the big games at home as well.
He's done very well in certain games,no doubt about it.But in the bigger games against better opposition he's a passenger too often for my liking.

I'll get pelters for saying this,but if we really want to challenge next season we need to upgrade in that position.I suggested someone like Lewis Holtby,as an example.That's the level of quality we'll need imo.
 
What an absolute nonsense, Morelos went nine games without scoring and missed several chances again yesterday and we’re still in the hunt! While I think he’s a fantastic player Cummings coming in for him wouldn’t weaken us that much, he’s a fantastic goal scorer too!
You seem to have completley missed the point
 
I felt he got it wrong yesterday, as daft as that sounds.

We were lucky Hearts weren’t able to exploit it but better teams will be able to, like Hibs already have.

How he’s taking Morelos and Docherty off before Windass was incredible. Holt should have been on for Windass, put Goss slightly in front of the middle two and see the game out.

I find that one bad pass and the opposition are breaking on us far too often.

This, because we got the win people will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm sorry, that could have cost us.
A blind man could see that nothing was happening for Windass yesterday.
As far as Docherty is concerned, I really hope he was knackered, if not it's another very strange substitution.
 
The only substituion I would have like to have seen was Windass being taken off with either Holt to sit in the middle with Goss or Murphy to take his position or Cummings to take his place and play just behind Alfie.
 
I can understand the late subs at times, but games where we are up by a couple get players on early to give them gametime. Guys like Cummings coming on for 10-15mins when the game is done or we are sitting back is no use.
 
You seem to have completley missed the point
What point did I miss??
Someone says if Morelos leaves we’ll struggle to make second spot in the league and I vehemently disagree with that statement! What point have I missed completely??
 
What point did I miss??
Someone says if Morelos leaves we’ll struggle to make second spot in the league and I vehemently disagree with that statement! What point have I missed completely??

You're post was all about goals whereas the original point was about what his all round game brings to the team and how not having his hold up play would effect our shape.

I like Cummings a lot not having Morelos will mean a major adjustment which we don't know how well it will work.
 
You're post was all about goals whereas the original point was about what his all round game brings to the team and how not having his hold up play would effect our shape.

I like Cummings a lot not having Morelos will mean a major adjustment which we don't know how well it will work.

Haha, mate honestly you’ve missed this post :

“Spot on! If Morelos was sold this month we would struggle to tie down second place never mind chase them down.”

I was commenting this was nonsense and I don’t believe we’d struggle to get second spot. I appreciate that him not scoring in nine games didn’t detract from the shape and that he was still contributing, but I also don’t think he’s the lynchpin of the whole team and if he was sold we’d still be in decent shape for attacking options.
 
All the statistical data - apparently - indicates 60 minutes is the optimum time to make substitutions. Hence, if you watch the EPL for example, it’s the most common time for subs. Warburton did it every week - we slated him for it. Murty does it later - we slate him for it.:rolleyes:

Go figure.

As for yesterday’s subs. Windass was poor but Morelos was hardly having a stormer either. Docherty was tiring. Just let the Manager get on with it I say.
Stats are all good in theory, the problem is a good manager should be able to change things either to win a game or to see one out when you are winning.
Time won’t come into that, as for Murty he is there till the seasons end so it’s up to him to change things as he sees fit, sometimes we won’t like the change but that’s life.
 
I think leaving windass on is inspired by murty windass is a confidence player bringing him off at Ibrox would have been a blow to him. Ok he missed a few chances but he was there to miss them I.e he didn' go hiding his movement was excellent creating space for others
 
I think leaving windass on is inspired by murty windass is a confidence player bringing him off at Ibrox would have been a blow to him. Ok he missed a few chances but he was there to miss them I.e he didn' go hiding his movement was excellent creating space for others

Windass is employed as a professional footballer, the manager should treat him like the other professional footballers at his disposal not a bird he's scared to dump.
 
He takes far far too long to make a sub. It’s the same every week. We get the first sub around 75 mins.

He’ll tben usually put one on with minutes to go even when he games effectively finished, what’s the point?!?
 
He takes far far too long to make a sub. It’s the same every week. We get the first sub around 75 mins.

He’ll tben usually put one on with minutes to go even when he games effectively finished, what’s the point?!?

Man City made their subs today on 52 minutes (injury), 77 minutes and 89 minutes. That Guardiola fella knows nothing clearly.;)
 
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He certainly gets alot of stick for the later timing of his subs. I do think there has been times he should of changed it earlier especially against Hibs. You could quite clearly see we where getting overrun in the midfield.

But yesterday i think he was spot on. Can see why people wanted Windass hooked but he was getting himself into good positions and on another day he could of scored 3 or 4. Docherty was struggling with cramp before he got subbed seen him stretching on the half way line he had run himself into the ground.

Murty will be judged on the timing of his subs when we are getting beat or struggling to break teams down in the later halves of a game. But just now games have generally been going our way and the timing of the subs really aint an issue.

Said that at the game, did right bringing Docherty off. Could see he was pulling up and the last thing we need is another injury.
 
Yesterday summer I played to me why Murty isn’t the long term answer. Windass was a passenger the entire game and all could see this fact, the lad seems to freeze at Ibrox. However Murty refused to take him off for some strange reason. Imho Morelos should have stayed on and Cummings should have replaced Windass. It baffled most around me and could easily have cost us points on another day!
 
I never mentioned competing for 2nd place, I said if we want to progress then Cummings will not be our striker.

Would be very suprised if we will actually try to sign him.
I've been of this opinion too, but at 22 who does know where the net is he, does deserve a chance. He just hasn't really done that great with his chances(I know he hasn't had a lot of time to take it). He just looks so different in style from Morelos who I think pushed so much harder to create his chances.
 
Windass had a bad game in front of goal but to be fair Morelos was equally honking, probably worse. Windass was involved in a lot of our positive play, and he plays a role no one else on the bench can. We would have completely lost our shape had the change been Cummings for Windass.

We seen Cummings attempt at trying tracking back to try win the ball.

Has anyone maybe thought Windass not being taken off is to do with the fact he is one of the fittest at the club and he can complete 90 mins week in week out no problem. Some players just can't.

Yesterday at one nil we were one mistake or the complete fluke from dropping points. Changes were needed to freshen things up, fresh legs from Holt was a positive, Cummings can't play the Morelos role so yes fresh legs but we were effectively weaker.

Points dropped previously were down to changes not happening at the right time and spotting the bloody obvious when things aren't working and getting over run in midfield yesterday wasn't one of these days it was 2 nil going on five.
 
Yesterday summer I played to me why Murty isn’t the long term answer. Windass was a passenger the entire game and all could see this fact, the lad seems to freeze at Ibrox. However Murty refused to take him off for some strange reason. Imho Morelos should have stayed on and Cummings should have replaced Windass. It baffled most around me and could easily have cost us points on another day!

I have read that first sentence 8 times, and I like it.
 
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