Murty Gets Central Defence Selection Right

Jury still very much out on both of them for me.

I felt the main reason Hearts hardly laid a glove on us yesterday was that for the most part our midfield and forward line were tearing them a new one.

Martin is fairly steady, but seems prone to the odd brainfart.
Bates can tackle and block, but his positional awareness at times is a worrying, and he looks like a rabbit in the headlights when players close him down quickly. However, he can be worked on.

Moving forwards though I currently feel we need better than those two for our first choices.
 
Hemdani said:
Fair enough mate, don't think I'll ever be quite satisfied with Bates & Martin playing but can't argue with much of your post.

Felt they were much stronger at set pieces, Hughes & Berra winning against Martin.

Did think Bates avoided any usual dodgy moments yesterday mind you, but still need 2 new starters for CB.
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Going forward if we want to progress we will need better, that's not up for debate.

They did their job yesterday though.
 
Hemdani said:
Fair enough mate, don't think I'll ever be quite satisfied with Bates & Martin playing but can't argue with much of your post.

Felt they were much stronger at set pieces, Hughes & Berra winning against Martin.

Did think Bates avoided any usual dodgy moments yesterday mind you, but still need 2 new starters for CB.
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Totally agree with above.
We need a no nonsense CH who is commanding in the air and takes no prisoners with a partner who is quick enough to match any runners.

Alves was brought in to be the commanding CH but it just hasn't worked out for him. He is probably shocked how physical and quick the game is in Scotland.
 
Personally I thought Bates was less than impressive first half yesterday,pretty dodgy tbh at times.
Your point about Martin reading second balls however is an excellent one,showed his experience although I also agree with other posters saying he's not suited to the left side as he's very one footed.

As much as they'd lack pace,I'd like to see Alves and Martin together who should have enough experience and guile to compensate for lack of youth-particularly when young McCrorie comes back to have legs in front of them.Alves is a beast in the air as well,he'd have dealt with Lafferty better imo in respect of the first balls.

Although that's kind of a hypocritical comment from me about McCrorie,as both Goss and Docherty played very well together yesterday I thought-really pleased for them.
 
Nope.

For me I’d rather have Alves in there

First half Bates was caught under the ball twice with a ball through for Lafferty. Another pass split both centre halves and Lafferty was flagged offside (wrongly IMO)

Several goal mouth balls bobbling about as well.

I’ll never be satisfied with those as our centre half partnership.

IMO we should play our best 11 players. Alves is miles ahead of both Bates and Martin and should play
 
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MearnsUnionist said:
Plenty on here wanted Bruno back at the expense of Martu or Bates .

Plenty on here, myself included, were undecided whether or not to recall him.

The Hamilton game aside, we've conceded 3 goals in the last 9 games and yesterday Bates and Martin shiwed Murty why he was right to keep faith with them.

Both of them played well yesterday , but Martin in particular was excellent.

They both know how to mark tight and defend a set piece.

Can you hear that Rob Kiernan and Danny Wilson?
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3 times in the first half the ball was bobbing about around the 6 yard line after a corner (once after a long throw) that's not proper defending of set pieces. Lucky for us no Hearts player reacted quickly enough
 
I think games like these are good for youngsters like Bates, he was visibly made uncomfortable by Lafferty for the first 30 mins, but grew into the game. I remember Lafferty getting two shots off (saved by Wes), but he dealt with him for the rest of the game.

I seem to remember Rash Bingham of Hamilton taking Ross McCrorie for a ride aswell.

The good thing about youths is that they can use these lessons to benefit the team and them in the long run.
 
Jake said:
3 times in the first half the ball was bobbing about around the 6 yard line after a corner (once after a long throw) that's not proper defending of set pieces. Lucky for us no Hearts player reacted quickly enough
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It's not necessarily the central defender's fault if the ball is bouncing around the box.

As long as we are tight to our men then things usually work out ok.

Thankfully these days our man marking is way better.
 
Seriously don't see it with Bates .
No argument about his commitment , but lacks mobility .
No on the same planet as Alves in terms of ability .
 
MearnsUnionist said:
That's the most agressive I've seen Goss mate.

He really does know how to control a central midfield.
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It's a shame that he isn't likely part of the revolution. I really hope he realises what is happening at Ibrox and some kind of agreement to sign him can happen.

We should enjoy him whilst he is here. And he should relish every moment because he will develop a soft spot for us and realise the size of our club.
 
MarkD87 said:
It's a shame that he isn't likely part of the revolution. I really hope he realises what is happening at Ibrox and some kind of agreement to sign him can happen.

We should enjoy him whilst he is here. And he should relish every moment because he will develop a soft spot for us and realise the size of our club.
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I'm sure Allen will already be trying to sort out a permanent deal if possible, if not a further loan.

Fits perfectly into the style of football Murty wants to play.
 
2 Good players (at least on paper) don't always bring out the best in each other
At centre back it often needs to be about how the 'partnership' works
If it doesn't work they'll cancel each other out
I was beginning to have reservations about Bates - but to be fair - I have less worries than before
Considering Martin was new to our team and had recently had stop/start 1st team opportunities before coming to us - I Can't fault him at all & think he gets better all the time
Alves - on paper - should be better than most- but he Can't be fully match fit yet - I hope he isn't shoehorned into the scum game without some match time first & I'm unsure how well he'll work alongside Bates either
Seems to me Alves could spend time covering for Bates but less time if he were trying to cover for Martin
 
nybear said:
was glad to see alves was on the bench and not starting.stick with what is working and also when you look at midfield we owned hearts if we get the front men hitting the net and McCrorie back i feel we have a team that will get 55
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I can't argue with that mate.:)

W.A.T.P.
 
gersandproud said:
2 Good players (at least on paper) don't always bring out the best in each other
At centre back it often needs to be about how the 'partnership' works
If it doesn't work they'll cancel each other out
I was beginning to have reservations about Bates - but to be fair - I have less worries than before
Considering Martin was new to our team and had recently had stop/start 1st team opportunities before coming to us - I Can't fault him at all & think he gets better all the time
Alves - on paper - should be better than most- but he Can't be fully match fit yet - I hope he isn't shoehorned into the scum game without some match time first & I'm unsure how well he'll work alongside Bates either
Seems to me Alves could spend time covering for Bates but less time if he were trying to cover for Martin
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I think that Alves will get more play time as he is fit now and with McCrorie out for now we will need cover in that area. If Alves is to be leaving then if we are to get a half decent fee then he has to be playing but I'd rather we lost out on a fee than upset the balance of the team.

W.A.T.P.
 
I understand people having doubts or questions about certain aspects of the team, in this case our defensive capabilities and Hearts having a couple of chances yesterday, but opposing team are allowed to have chances.
People are moaning about Lafferty getting a shot away or Hearts causing a bit of panic at a corner but teams made chances when big Gough, McLaren, Weir, Butcher etc were in the team that's the way it goes.
As i have said before whether the likes of Bates is good enough long term remains to be seen but he isn't as bad as some make out.
 
The team as a whole seem to have gone up a level of late. As a result we've been dominating games and playing in the opposition half. That's taken the pressure off the back 4. The problem is whenever they do come under pressure we look vulnerable. Bates - I just don't see it. He's had some decent games yes but I'd have Alves in ahead of him. But so long as we keep winning the op is correct murty is getting it right. Big test midweek now
 
Find much of this to be puzzling. A few posters want Cardoso recalled. Can’t figure out their basis for this. His appearances have been so fleeting that an assessment was him is just not possible. Again, while Alves has earned a high reputation his performances for Rangers have been, at best, average. Our defence and goals conceded is superior than what we have had to put up for several seasons and why some are hellbent on making immediate changes escapes me.
 
MearnsUnionist said:
Plenty on here wanted Bruno back at the expense of Martin or Bates .

Plenty on here, myself included, were undecided whether or not to recall him.

The Hamilton game aside, we've conceded 3 goals in the last 9 games and yesterday Bates and Martin showed Murty why he was right to keep faith with them.

Both of them played well yesterday , but Martin in particular was excellent.

They both know how to mark tight and defend a set piece.

Can you hear that Rob Kiernan and Danny Wilson?
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I don’t think that’s right mate. Bates did a couple of good things but overall he was very poor. Hearts had very little of the play but they were clearly targeting him. He’s also by far the worst of our centre halves in terms of building the play.

He’s played a few good games but I just don’t even see it as a serious position that he can play ahead of a fit Bruno.
 
I think we need to see the real Alves as he certainly hasn't turned up yet. However, I don't think Bates has done anything to deserve being dropped and he is the only option to drop out for Alves. Would be very harsh and very much the wrong message.
 
Bates strangely had his poorest game for us yesterday. Lafferty gave him all sorts of bother & Tav ended up playing inside most of the 2nd half to cover for Bates.

I won’t be surprised to see Alves in on Tuesday & Sunday in preparation for the tims.
 
nybear said:
was glad to see alves was on the bench and not starting.stick with what is working and also when you look at midfield we owned hearts if we get the front men hitting the net and McCrorie back i feel we have a team that will get 55
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If we have to sell Morelos but re-invest the money wisely i.e. Starting with Goss and a decent striker, the title is ours next year. Not ruling this year out yet, but very confident for next year.
 
Unpopular opinion i’m gona say but Martin has yet to convince me, good day at the office yesterday granted.
 
Martin has been fine so far, a good steady pro and a good organizer in there. Better than anything we have had this season definitely. Yes he had a poor game at Hamilton but im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt given it was such a poor surface.

Our clean sheet ratio has certainly improved since his signing.

I have been extremely criticial of Alves as all on here know but I would be interested to see how he would look alongside the experienced Martin.

Bates is a good defender but hes still learning his trade. If the manager wants to stick with him then so be it, hes had more good than bad games.
 
Neilstonger said:
If we have to sell Morelos but re-invest the money wisely i.e. Starting with Goss and a decent striker, the title is ours next year. Not ruling this year out yet, but very confident for next year.
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Mothersday is a must and this year is on, next season they will have to have a fire sale of the invisables and will be there for the taking.55 is coming .
 
BL11 said:
I just don’t feel comfortable with Martin.

Bates gets a bad press for his distribution but Martin is just as bad, if not worse.

Alves is the best CB at the Club just now and should be in ahead of Martin.
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Yes, on paper but can you really say that Alves has shown over the course of the season that he is the best CB? He's been injured, alot, and when he's been in, he's had as many bad games as he has good. Gotta be in on merit not just reputation, the game is not played on paper
 
davmcc said:
We've conceded 7 goals since the break.

3 have been penalties.

1 was a howler from Foderingham against Ayr.

1 goal against Hamilton was mainly down to a mistake by Docherty.

1 goal was Candeias/centre of midfields fault for letting McGinn run 30 yards and shoot.

Only 1 goal from open play can really be blamed on our centre backs.
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How many times has Foderingham pulled off a great save or the opposition player made a lady's front bottom of their chance?

Stats only tell half the story
 
AirthBear said:
Totally agree with above.
We need a no nonsense CH who is commanding in the air and takes no prisoners with a partner who is quick enough to match any runners.

Alves was brought in to be the commanding CH but it just hasn't worked out for him. He is probably shocked how physical and quick the game is in Scotland.
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Alves has been nothing short of totally dominant in the air every game he has played. I really don't know what people expect from him?

Up against a player with decent movement he struggles but as a big, lumbering CB that's par for the course
 
MearnsUnionist said:
Mate Hearts had only one effort on goal each half, so where do you get that they were all over the place?
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You at the toilet when Hearts were all over us in the first half for 15 minutes? At least 4 great chances, 2 brilliant save by Wes,pin ball all over the 6 yard box with Declan and Tav clearing up.... As the guy said. The two centre backs, Bates in particular were rotten in the first half.
 
Aldo007 said:
You at the toilet when Hearts were all over us in the first half for 15 minutes? At least 4 great chances, 2 brilliant save by Wes,pin ball all over the 6 yard box with Declan and Tav clearing up.... As the guy said. The two centre backs, Bates in particular were rotten in the first half.
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Think I must been at the toilet when Hearts were all over us for 15 minutes.
 
Aldo007 said:
You at the toilet when Hearts were all over us in the first half for 15 minutes? At least 4 great chances, 2 brilliant save by Wes,pin ball all over the 6 yard box with Declan and Tav clearing up.... As the guy said. The two centre backs, Bates in particular were rotten in the first half.
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All over us for 15 seconds I think you mean mate, although I do stand corrected that the 2 saves Wes had were in the first half.

Other than that, he'd nothing to do.
 
Brian_Fantana said:
Alves has been nothing short of totally dominant in the air every game he has played. I really don't know what people expect from him?

Up against a player with decent movement he struggles but as a big, lumbering CB that's par for the course
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You obviously never watched the Celtic game where he lost 3 headers in a row before being injured.
We looked like we were on a drubbing with him in the team. Bates improved us when he replaced Alves.
 
Docherty and Murphy are settling in very nicely and are making a real difference.


And a well done to Graeme Murty and his background team too.....
 
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nybear said:
Mothersday is a must and this year is on, next season they will have to have a fire sale of the invisables and will be there for the taking.55 is coming .
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I predict a troubled summer for the Tims. They're an aging team and won't spend money wisely. Brenda won't want to be the manager who lost the league to a resurgent Rangers so he'll do what he always does and %^*& off. If it's not this year, it'll be next.
 
SDF said:
Bates improved no question in the 2nd half and Martin easily has his best game since he's been here but the defence is still our weak spot.
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Despite the elation of out-classing Hearts, that's my view too. We didn't deal well with high balls in the 1st half, it bounced in our penalty box & ran along the 6yd box once. By far RM's best game, though.
 
I think we still need an upgrade at the heart of that central defence. A commanding captain type who is very good in the air. Bates, Martin, and Cardoso, all look like players who should be playing beside this mystery player that we have not signed yet. Alves is not up to the pace of Scottish football sadly. He might have been the man for that role a few years back.

The answer to our CB problems is not to be found within the squad of players we have. They are all ‘second’ CB type players in my eyes.
 
BL11 said:
I just don’t feel comfortable with Martin.

Bates gets a bad press for his distribution but Martin is just as bad, if not worse.

Alves is the best CB at the Club just now and should be in ahead of Martin.
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I kind of agree with you and I kind of don’t.I think Alves is probably our best CH but l think Martin and Bates may well be the best parternship if that makes sense.
 
Again, I wasn't convinced by Martin. I feel he offers us no aerial protection. Unlike Bates who wins almost every header.

I think Martin is too easily bullied at set pieces.
A few corners and throw ins today caused us problems because Martin is not winning his aerial battles. You never seen st johnstone try long throw ins from the left hand side (Bate's side).

I also get the impression that he doesn't feel comfortable at the left hand side of central defence. He tries a lot of long balls and clearances cutting in on his right foot, but they are not very successful.
I'd prefer to see Alves playing in that position.
 
MarkD87 said:
Again, I wasn't convinced by Martin. I feel he offers us no aerial protection. Unlike Bates who wins almost every header.

I think Martin is too easily bullied at set pieces.
A few corners and throw ins today caused us problems because Martin is not winning his aerial battles. You never seen st johnstone try long throw ins from the left hand side (Bate's side).

I also get the impression that he doesn't feel comfortable at the left hand side of central defence. He tries a lot of long balls and clearances cutting in on his right foot, but they are not very successful.
I'd prefer to see Alves playing in that position.
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I’m going to get shot down here but for me the two of them are piss poor , McCrorie and Aidan Wilson would be my first choice although admittedly they may need a bit more experience playing with them but they look far and away the cb’s at the club just now . Ps I know Wilson is out on loan .
 
Still think we need a couple of commanding centre backs added in the summer.

Alves will probably be gone and we need to concentrate on finding a dominant pairing in there.

It still looks a bit weak to be honest
 
Don’t think Bates has had a particularly good game for 4 or 5 matches now (maybe difficult for a kid who’s future is uncertain and has other things to deal with) and Martin really hasn’t impressed yet. Would have Alves back in as soon as possible.
 
We have to play Alves plus one.

It’s really that simple.
 
Growler said:
Don’t think Bates has had a particularly good game for 4 or 5 matches now (maybe difficult for a kid who’s future is uncertain and has other things to deal with) and Martin really hasn’t impressed yet. Would have Alves back in as soon as possible.
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What other things to deal with?
 
tiGERS said:
I’m going to get shot down here but for me the two of them are piss poor , McCrorie and Aidan Wilson would be my first choice although admittedly they may need a bit more experience playing with them but they look far and away the cb’s at the club just now . Ps I know Wilson is out on loan .
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McRorie has looked class at defensive mid. I don't think we've seen enough of him at centre half, but the boy looks class so could be our best.
I actually think Bates has looked a quality defender. I just don't think he looks easy on the eye, so therefore gets a harder time. He is not the best on the ball but some of his distribution to the forwards is excellent. It's the 5-20 yard passes he needs to improve, and I think it's just about making them quicker and taking one less touch. This allows those players more space when receiving the pass. He is an excellent one v one defender. He is also now winning the majority of his aerial battles. With time he will improve his decision making and with the right coaching will likely become a better player.
Martin just doesn't fill me with confidence. And I'd definitely have Alves alongside Bates. Alves is dominant, great organiser and our only naturally left sided centre half.
 
tiGERS said:
I’m going to get shot down here but for me the two of them are piss poor , McCrorie and Aidan Wilson would be my first choice although admittedly they may need a bit more experience playing with them but they look far and away the cb’s at the club just now . Ps I know Wilson is out on loan .
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Wilson who isnt even getting a game on loan at Dumbarton?
 
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