My club paid the price, I as a fan paid the price. EBT v Child Abuse/Equality in scottish football.

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
First and foremost we all recognise the victims and their plight in their fight for justice quite rightly so. That is a fight that is right at the front of this sordid affair. But it doesn't stop there and there are many knock on effects that must and should be taking in to account. There are many threads and thoughts on the victims and the horrible crimes they faced, which their families still have to suffer with. A full investigation is being swerved unjustly.

There are many threads and thoughts on this matter. I want to talk about some of the knock on effects that doesn't concern justice for the awful crimes committed, but concerns justice from the football authorities and eqaulity without fear or favour. Also without pointscoring and whataboutery which many use to deflect and deny what has gone on.

I apologise for some content which some may find abhorrent, vile and disgusting. ADMIN, If you feel this thread deserves to be deleted, then please delete. I also may be wrong here and there and if any one want's to correct me, then please free. I want to now talk about a football aspect, concerning my club and retribution that was took on my club, not for a criminal act, but for an act of naivety concerning a tax scheme which was initially thought to be legal and above board.

EBT'S= Tax scheme operated by the murry group (seperate entity). Which was deemed legal and thought to be legal, but turned out not to be. Side letter's to players was the vile disgusting evidence that saw my club and me as a fan, suffer like no other club in Scotland has suffered before.

Kicked from pillar to post, vilified in the media to shouts of hang the traitors, hang them, cut and quarter them. My club took on the responsibility, thousands upon thousands of Rangers took the responsibility. We stood tall, we took it on the chin, we went to the bottom tier of scottish football amid secret meetings and low level paper gatherer's calling the shots. We took our punishment, we stood tall, we "accepted" it.

CHILD ABUSE= Taking place within celtic football club and in the stadium. High ranking celtic officials and management knowing about it. The open secret. Abusers being thrown out then being allowed back in. In other words known child abuser's being openly welcome back in to the club. Their crimes being known but yet allowed back in to work along with children again.

What is child abuse ?. What is sexual child abuse ?. This is where i apologise for giving this information from Police/Poileas Scotland website. This is is absolutely sickening. The media and justice minister and other politician's seem to be absolutely ignoring what is happening right in front of them.

Sexual Abuse

A child is sexually abused when they are forced, enticed or persuaded to take part in sexual activities. This doesn't have to be physical contact and it can happen online. Sometimes the child won't understand that what's happening to them is abuse. They may not even understand that it's wrong.

There are 2 different types of child sexual abuse. These are called contact abuse and non-contact abuse: -

Contact abuse involves touching activities where an abuser makes physical contact with a child. Examples of contact abuse can include:

  • sexual touching of any part of the body whether the child's wearing clothes or not
  • rape or penetration by putting an object or other body part inside a child's mouth, vagina or anus
  • forcing or encouraging a child to take part in sexual activity
  • making a child take their clothes off, touch someone else's genitals or masturbate.

Non-contact abuse involves non-touching activities. Examples of non-contact abuse can include:

  • encouraging a child to watch or hear sexual acts
  • communicating indecent messages to a child
  • not taking proper measures to prevent a child being exposed to sexual activities by others
  • online abuse including making, viewing or distributing child abuse images
  • allowing someone else to make, view or distribute child abuse image
  • showing pornography to a child.

This is all freely available on the Police/poileas Scotland website.

Like i say, I am looking from a knock on effect and equality within Scottish Football and the Scottish Football authorities.

EBT'S, A tax scheme originally thought as above board and legal and bona fide. Then through many court battles, it was deemed not so.

CHILD SEX ABUSE= Make your own mind up v the above.

Again, i say, there are many fights. The victims and justice are at the forefront. But i am wanting to speak on the football side of things which is secondary to what these people have gone through, and are still going through.

This is not about "pointscoring", this is not about "whataboutery". This is about "EQUALITY" in the football world.

TAX MISINTERPRETATIONS V CRIMINAL CHILD SEX ABUSE.

Over to "YOU" Scottish football authorities.
 

Gibraltar Loyal

Well-Known Member
EBTs were not illegal at the time and only became so when government closed loophole and retrospectively looked to punish those that employed the scheme. Much like driving at 30 2 years ago in a now 20 zone and police trawl cameras and backdate the speeding offence.
Child abuse has always been illegal
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
EBTs were not illegal at the time and only became so when government closed loophole and retrospectively looked to punish those that employed the scheme. Much like driving at 30 2 years ago in a now 20 zone and police trawl cameras and backdate the speeding offence.
Child abuse has always been illegal
Thanks GL, As i said correct me as you see fit, but we are all singing off the same hym sheet here and know the route i am going down.

Death on the rock ;)
 

Stoorie

Active Member
i do expect the Scottish football authority's to punish them and I expect the punishment to be much bigger then what we got anything less is fucking disgusting
The SFA?
Mr Liewell will tell peter that peter was a naughty boy and peter should not have done that. Peter will say sorry and it was someone else and then they ran away and it had nothing to do with him anyway.
Mr Liewell will tell peter that it’s ok, as long as it’s in the past then it can go away now.

Meeting ends......
 

nasalsinatra

Well-Known Member
Why are all these journalists so afraid to discuss the Celtic paedophile ring? They were all over Rangers Football Club when the EBT tax case was on the go as soon as HMRC had indicated their intention to pursue the matter in order to 'change the tax laws' on the subject. By implication (and fact) EBTs were not illegal at that time. But sexual abuse of children has never been in doubt as a major criminal offence. The perpetrators have been convicted. So why the reluctance to discuss it? Sub-judicial is no longer an issue. Where is Graham Spiers? Where is Alex Thomson of Channel 4 News? Tom English? The Irish ((actually Scottish) bigot? Anyone? Crewe Alexandra, a minor English league club, was front page news for weeks and months in all the English heavyweight newspapers when the scandal at that club became public. What has happened to the 'publish and be damned' ethos of the Scottish Press? To say this is 'not football related' is reprehensible and cowardly.
 

dh1963

Well-Known Member
EBTs were not illegal at the time and only became so when government closed loophole and retrospectively looked to punish those that employed the scheme. Much like driving at 30 2 years ago in a now 20 zone and police trawl cameras and backdate the speeding offence.
Child abuse has always been illegal
EBTs have never been illegal, not even after the appeal court judgement.
They have been judged to be tax liable, and therefore not effective in minimising tax due.
If they were illegal, individuals could face criminal charges of tax evasion.
As they aren't illegal, individuals instead find they owe back taxes as the scheme was not within the rules of tax avoidance.

And all this years after the Murray group, and many others all over the UK, got advice they were within those rules.
 

Gibraltar Loyal

Well-Known Member
EBTs have never been illegal, not even after the appeal court judgement.
They have been judged to be tax liable, and therefore not effective in minimising tax due.
If they were illegal, individuals could face criminal charges of tax evasion.
As they aren't illegal, individuals instead find they owe back taxes as the scheme was not within the rules of tax avoidance.

And all this years after the Murray group, and many others all over the UK, got advice they were within those rules.
Thanks for clarifying dh wasnt fully aware of that.
Just makes what happened to us all the more galling
 

tastic76

Member
The thing that is doing my head in is. I listened day in day out on radio shows from football pundits and the like becoming experts on everything regarding tax. Not once have I heard anything from them regarding the wellbeing of young footballers in the clubs care. No one wants to call them out and tell the truth. It's not a nice subject to talk about but still needs addressed.
 

carlosapicella

Well-Known Member
First and foremost we all recognise the victims and their plight in their fight for justice quite rightly so. That is a fight that is right at the front of this sordid affair. But it doesn't stop there and there are many knock on effects that must and should be taking in to account. There are many threads and thoughts on the victims and the horrible crimes they faced, which their families still have to suffer with. A full investigation is being swerved unjustly.

There are many threads and thoughts on this matter. I want to talk about some of the knock on effects that doesn't concern justice for the awful crimes committed, but concerns justice from the football authorities and eqaulity without fear or favour. Also without pointscoring and whataboutery which many use to deflect and deny what has gone on.

I apologise for some content which some may find abhorrent, vile and disgusting. ADMIN, If you feel this thread deserves to be deleted, then please delete. I also may be wrong here and there and if any one want's to correct me, then please free. I want to now talk about a football aspect, concerning my club and retribution that was took on my club, not for a criminal act, but for an act of naivety concerning a tax scheme which was initially thought to be legal and above board.

EBT'S= Tax scheme operated by the murry group (seperate entity). Which was deemed legal and thought to be legal, but turned out not to be. Side letter's to players was the vile disgusting evidence that saw my club and me as a fan, suffer like no other club in Scotland has suffered before.

Kicked from pillar to post, vilified in the media to shouts of hang the traitors, hang them, cut and quarter them. My club took on the responsibility, thousands upon thousands of Rangers took the responsibility. We stood tall, we took it on the chin, we went to the bottom tier of scottish football amid secret meetings and low level paper gatherer's calling the shots. We took our punishment, we stood tall, we "accepted" it.

CHILD ABUSE= Taking place within celtic football club and in the stadium. High ranking celtic officials and management knowing about it. The open secret. Abusers being thrown out then being allowed back in. In other words known child abuser's being openly welcome back in to the club. Their crimes being known but yet allowed back in to work along with children again.

What is child abuse ?. What is sexual child abuse ?. This is where i apologise for giving this information from Police/Poileas Scotland website. This is is absolutely sickening. The media and justice minister and other politician's seem to be absolutely ignoring what is happening right in front of them.

Sexual Abuse

A child is sexually abused when they are forced, enticed or persuaded to take part in sexual activities. This doesn't have to be physical contact and it can happen online. Sometimes the child won't understand that what's happening to them is abuse. They may not even understand that it's wrong.

There are 2 different types of child sexual abuse. These are called contact abuse and non-contact abuse: -

Contact abuse involves touching activities where an abuser makes physical contact with a child. Examples of contact abuse can include:

  • sexual touching of any part of the body whether the child's wearing clothes or not
  • rape or penetration by putting an object or other body part inside a child's mouth, vagina or anus
  • forcing or encouraging a child to take part in sexual activity
  • making a child take their clothes off, touch someone else's genitals or masturbate.

Non-contact abuse involves non-touching activities. Examples of non-contact abuse can include:

  • encouraging a child to watch or hear sexual acts
  • communicating indecent messages to a child
  • not taking proper measures to prevent a child being exposed to sexual activities by others
  • online abuse including making, viewing or distributing child abuse images
  • allowing someone else to make, view or distribute child abuse image
  • showing pornography to a child.

This is all freely available on the Police/poileas Scotland website.

Like i say, I am looking from a knock on effect and equality within Scottish Football and the Scottish Football authorities.

EBT'S, A tax scheme originally thought as above board and legal and bona fide. Then through many court battles, it was deemed not so.

CHILD SEX ABUSE= Make your own mind up v the above.

Again, i say, there are many fights. The victims and justice are at the forefront. But i am wanting to speak on the football side of things which is secondary to what these people have gone through, and are still going through.

This is not about "pointscoring", this is not about "whataboutery". This is about "EQUALITY" in the football world.

TAX MISINTERPRETATIONS V CRIMINAL CHILD SEX ABUSE.

Over to "YOU" Scottish football authorities.
WOW!
 

Rangersmandownunder

Well-Known Member
I think a main sticking point for the SFA is that they are implicated due to Jack McGinn being a past president, I also think he was the treasurer as well, there will be various other Celtic men involved at the SFA during the abuse years, which would indicate the SFA were also aware of what was going on and chose not to report it either.

For whatever reason the Scottish government doesn't want to peel this particular onion, which is utterly appalling.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
Again speaking from a football perspective, We as a club due to our punishment, which we took head on. Probably lost millions upon millions of pounds from being denied european football. Lost the chance of adding domestic silverware to our already massive haul, along with the chance of adding to our record haul of domestic titles.

Hopefully the club lawyers are watching proceeding's with great interest. I wouldn't like to think Celtic if admitting guilt, or found to be guilty in a court of law get favourable treatment from scottish football authorities. If that was the case, then i believe a compensation claim, monetary and trophy wise could be sought from the scottish football authorities. This could possibly run in to millions and millions of pounds. Scottish football could have indeed hated itself to death.
 

barrheadbear

Well-Known Member
i do expect the Scottish football authority's to punish them and I expect the punishment to be much bigger then what we got anything less is fucking disgusting
Sorry to say I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the football authorities will punish the Scum for the depraved and reprehensible goings on at club - ffs even the Scottish govt are scared to give it a seconds notice.
 

Carson's Cat

Well-Known Member
Well I am astonished that anyone would even dare to compare and contrast our situation to that of the taigs and even to attempt this makes us part of the problem.

We overreached ourselves, spent beyond our means and were made bankrupt. We all knew we were not a viable concern even before The Mint sold us to Whyte. Aye, that we had a series of fiscal rapists is beyond doubt but we do have to take responsibility for our own demise. We all bought in to Murray's hubris.

To try and draw parallels between us being fiscal fuckwits and Celtic enabling the rape of young boys is invidious and is the way of madness.

Our case has been examined in detail and we've been found guilty and fined on various charges. Let's park that as it's now history.

The situation with Celtic is entirely unrelated despite the media noise. Oh and 'what about them' is less than helpful.

What we must not do is say, "They wanted us banned so we now want them banned" as that makes us look like fannies in a tit-for-tat race to the bottom.

Four people associated with Celtic have, in the past year, been jailed for sexually abusing young boys. The lawyer for a group of victims reckons they acted in concert, We all know, too, that Celtic were, at least, negligent in allowing Torbett back to abuse children and that's the smoking gun.

Stop trying to draw parallels as that makes us look like fannies. Instead, let's ask the questions that the MSM seem not inclinded to ask.
 

ccy55

New Member
At the end of the day our crimes weren't crimes when they where legal loopholes. But then let us do our best to destroy and tarnish the Famous Glasgow Rangers the institution that was build on Integrity. The negativity wee received was nothing short of appaling from all the Media sources who should be hanging the heads in shame when there has been real crimes happening for the past 40 years which weren't a well kept secret.. Ps Remember the Victims that haven't be supported by there club that doesn't have a boys club
 

Walters80

Well-Known Member
Wrote it on another thread earlier they should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute straight away no if’s buts or need to to hold an independent investigation into what happened it’s been proved in a court of law a multiple times now what went on that club and they are guilty. How can an insolvency event be charged under that particular rule but not multiple child abuse cases?

After that further investigations should take place with heavy sporting sanctions placed on them.

That club has faced absolutely zero consequences for its actions with even ex-players going so far as admitting in books that child abuse was an open secret that everyone at the club knew about.

It’s beyond ridiculous that so far they faced absolutely zero repercussions for any of the crimes they have committed.
 

bulldozer

Active Member
Sorry to say I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the football authorities will punish the Scum for the depraved and reprehensible goings on at club - ffs even the Scottish govt are scared to give it a seconds notice.
this isn't just some wee shite scandal this is the worst scandal to hit not just Scottish football but the worst in football history so aye a expect them to be fucking punished and any decent people out there should be demanding it
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
Well I am astonished that anyone would even dare to compare and contrast our situation to that of the taigs and even to attempt this makes us part of the problem.

We overreached ourselves, spent beyond our means and were made bankrupt. We all knew we were not a viable concern even before The Mint sold us to Whyte. Aye, that we had a series of fiscal rapists is beyond doubt but we do have to take responsibility for our own demise. We all bought in to Murray's hubris.

To try and draw parallels between us being fiscal fuckwits and Celtic enabling the rape of young boys is invidious and is the way of madness.

Our case has been examined in detail and we've been found guilty and fined on various charges. Let's park that as it's now history.

The situation with Celtic is entirely unrelated despite the media noise. Oh and 'what about them' is less than helpful.

What we must not do is say, "They wanted us banned so we now want them banned" as that makes us look like fannies in a tit-for-tat race to the bottom.

Four people associated with Celtic have, in the past year, been jailed for sexually abusing young boys. The lawyer for a group of victims reckons they acted in concert, We all know, too, that Celtic were, at least, negligent in allowing Torbett back to abuse children and that's the smoking gun.

Stop trying to draw parallels as that makes us look like fannies. Instead, let's ask the questions that the MSM seem not inclinded to ask.
I try to give you the benefit of the doubt. I need to stop re-reading your post. It gets worse everytime i read it.
 

Bob Belcher

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Well I am astonished that anyone would even dare to compare and contrast our situation to that of the taigs and even to attempt this makes us part of the problem.

We overreached ourselves, spent beyond our means and were made bankrupt. We all knew we were not a viable concern even before The Mint sold us to Whyte. Aye, that we had a series of fiscal rapists is beyond doubt but we do have to take responsibility for our own demise. We all bought in to Murray's hubris.

To try and draw parallels between us being fiscal fuckwits and Celtic enabling the rape of young boys is invidious and is the way of madness.

Our case has been examined in detail and we've been found guilty and fined on various charges. Let's park that as it's now history.

The situation with Celtic is entirely unrelated despite the media noise. Oh and 'what about them' is less than helpful.

What we must not do is say, "They wanted us banned so we now want them banned" as that makes us look like fannies in a tit-for-tat race to the bottom.

Four people associated with Celtic have, in the past year, been jailed for sexually abusing young boys. The lawyer for a group of victims reckons they acted in concert, We all know, too, that Celtic were, at least, negligent in allowing Torbett back to abuse children and that's the smoking gun.

Stop trying to draw parallels as that makes us look like fannies. Instead, let's ask the questions that the MSM seem not inclinded to ask.
As I read it, it's not drawing parallels; it's pointing out that we were vilified and retrospectively punished for something that wasn't even illegal at the time it happened, but Celtic aren't, and for being complicit in much more serious crimes.
 

LD5

Well-Known Member
The punishment we got absolutely fucking reeks to high heavens.
A mere financial hiccup in comparison to most money issues these days and we get chucked down to the bottom floor like a weans shitey nappy, resulting in the loss of an international filled squad, various incomes and setting the club back years. Now ask anyone across the world which is worse out of a minor tax issue (which wasn't even illegal) and covering up a pedophile ring for the best part of 3/4 decades, the only people that will say the first one are the rancid rotten cunts in this country.

I honestly won't be surprised if they end up doing an out of court settlement with the victims and then the SFA come out and say they don't want to punish a "premier club" as it will tarnish the Scottish game too much. If they do that I would hope we go quadruple barrel on the cunts and take them to court.
 

Carson's Cat

Well-Known Member
Carson's cat.

Please point out any untruths in my OP. ?

The floor is all yours ?
My point was about as clear as it can possibly be: If we try and draw parallels between the two situations then we come across as utter fandans. What we have to be doing is asking:

How come 4 people associated with Celtic have been jailed in the past year?
How did Torbett get back to abuse boys after being 'kicked down the stairs' the first time?
What was the relationship between Celtic and The Trophy Centre?​
Why did said relationship continue even after Torbett was jailed first time round?
What was the involvement of some Celtic directors with Torbett's business?​
What was the relationship between Mccafferty and Bennell - it seems sinister as %^*&.​

So just stop with trying to draw parallels between the two. They are in no way comparable.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
My point was about as clear as it can possibly be: If we try and draw parallels between the two situations then we come across as utter fandans. What we have to be doing is asking:

How come 4 people associated with Celtic have been jailed in the past year?​
How did Torbett get back to abuse boys after being 'kicked down the stairs' the first time?​
What was the relationship between Celtic and The Trophy Centre?​
Why did said relationship continue even after Torbett was jailed first time round?​
What was the involvement of some Celtic directors with Torbett's business?​
What was the relationship between Mccafferty and Bennell - it seems sinister as %^*&.​

So just stop with trying to draw parallels between the two. They are in no way comparable.
I'm trying to find "EQUALITY" on a football basis, not parallels. "Equality" from the high heid yins in retrospective punishment.

Do you feel celtic if admittedly or found guilty in a court of law of knowingly and covered up what went on should escape unpunished ?
 

Carson's Cat

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to find "EQUALITY" on a football basis, not parallels. "Equality" from the high heid yins in retrospective punishment.

Do you feel celtic if admittedly or found guilty in a court of law of knowingly and covered up what went on should escape unpunished ?
So you made a heartfelt post and I sympathise with that. What you're doing, though, is comparing apples and pears.

Any case against The Scum stands or fall on its own merits and, as I said, is well worth investigating. There is absolutely no point in bleating endlessly about how we've been treated. This just makes us look silly.
 

Subway Bear

Well-Known Member
Personally think bringing EBT into the argument looks like revenge and belittles the seriousness of the issue.

That club allowed a peado gang to operate within its walls, had NDA's signed, covered it up, re-hired the same people years later who continued to abuse innocent children and paid untold sums of cash to the same people after being convicted. Stick to the facts, dont make it us and them.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
Nobody is making any Par
Personally think bringing EBT into the argument looks like revenge and belittles the seriousness of the issue.

That club allowed a peado gang to operate within its walls, had NDA's signed, covered it up, re-hired the same people years later who continued to abuse innocent children and paid untold sums of cash to the same people after being convicted. Stick to the facts, dont make it us and them.
"EQUALITY" again i have to point out. Not us or them, pointscoring or whataboutery. Please read thread from the start.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
Personally think bringing EBT into the argument looks like revenge and belittles the seriousness of the issue.

That club allowed a peado gang to operate within its walls, had NDA's signed, covered it up, re-hired the same people years later who continued to abuse innocent children and paid untold sums of cash to the same people after being convicted. Stick to the facts, dont make it us and them.
No doubt you will be first in line to demand punishment beyond what Rangers went through for a tax misdemeanour ?
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
So you made a heartfelt post and I sympathise with that. What you're doing, though, is comparing apples and pears.

Any case against The Scum stands or fall on its own merits and, as I said, is well worth investigating. There is absolutely no point in bleating endlessly about how we've been treated. This just makes us look silly.
Honestly ?. "bleating endlessly". Again, it's nothing to do with how we've been treated. Can you just please check out the word equality. Or how about this, "We only want a level playing field". Or is that outwith your train of thought as well ?
 

Carson's Cat

Well-Known Member
Honestly ?. "bleating endlessly". Again, it's nothing to do with how we've been treated. Can you just please check out the word equality. Or how about this, "We only want a level playing field". Or is that outwith your train of thought as well ?
You are clearly not getting this.

I would like Celtic to be investigated for what, on the face of it, is a paedo ring.

It has %^*& all to do with our demise and nothing to do with our treatment in the MSM. If you bleat endlessly about 'equality' then you become part of the problem.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
You are clearly not getting this.

I would like Celtic to be investigated for what, on the face of it, is a paedo ring.

It has %^*& all to do with our demise and nothing to do with our treatment in the MSM. If you bleat endlessly about 'equality' then you become part of the problem.
Oh dear, listen to yourself. You would like celtic to be investigated. What for ? A paedo ring ?. What punishment do you recommend ?. Compared to a tax misinterpretation ?. Your own words mate. you want them investigated for a paedo ring. Yet you want to have a go at me for what you think im still hurting over ebt's. Gie's peace.

Oh please god, let us divide and begin here. You even say "on the face of it". I think the result is in, there is no middle ground now. "on the face of it". Aye right.
 

Carson's Cat

Well-Known Member
Oh dear, listen to yourself. You would like celtic to be investigated. What for ? A paedo ring ?. What punishment do you recommend ?. Compared to a tax misinterpretation ?.
You're doing this comparison thing again. It makes not one jot of sense.

They have a case to answer. What happened to us is immaterial.
 
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