My club paid the price, I as a fan paid the price. EBT v Child Abuse/Equality in scottish football.

Bear of Burnside

Well-Known Member
I honestly think some of our fans are looking for some sort of equalizier here because of what happens to us.

This is all about justice and closure for the victims and nothing to do with football punishments.

Some posters like yourself and George Goudie need to get a grip.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
I honestly think some of our fans are looking for some sort of equalizier here because of what happens to us.

This is all about justice and closure for the victims and nothing to do with football punishments.

Some posters like yourself and George Goudie need to get a grip.
Pish, you just need to read the op again, then think about what you said. You spoke of justice and closure. Please mate, i really did point that out straightaway in my op , there are many threads speaking about that. There are many knock on effects. As hard as some try, this aint going away.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
You're doing this comparison thing again. It makes not one jot of sense.

They have a case to answer. What happened to us is immaterial.
Carson, have you really read my initial post, or has your adrenalin just ran away. Does the police scotland official info regarding child sex abuse strike fear in to you ?
 

Brother Crockett

Well-Known Member
I honestly think some of our fans are looking for some sort of equalizier here because of what happens to us.

This is all about justice and closure for the victims and nothing to do with football punishments.

Some posters like yourself and George Goudie need to get a grip.
I agree. There is no comparison to the two situations.

What happens to Celtic football club should be based on the seriousness of the offenses in relation to the law of the land.

Since only Penn State can compare, and even that is small in comparison, then the punishment which the law and eventually the football authorities administer will be totally unprecedented.
 

AndythephotoDr

Well-Known Member
The question I keep returning to with this is this. Is the current Celtic club punishable or is it the men who did the crimes punishable? The crimes for me are the actual abusers and anyone who purposely covered it up to protect celtics name and individuals at the club. The board members like the Kelly Family who Alan Brazil cited as knowing full well what went on should be investigated.

Where the current club looks guilty if something for me is the contrived story that Celtic and the boys club were not linked and were separate entities. That to me looks like something they came up with to deny the victims compensation and also any negativity to fall on the club.

There has to now be a full and transparent investigation not by football authorities but by police/justice system to see who knew and why it wasn’t disclosed, there should also be more people facing court and compensations made. After they concluded that’s when the football authorities need to investigate.

I don’t think our EBT case is any way comparable as we broke rules not laws IMHO. Our situation was based round money owing to the tax man and Lloyds shafting us putting us in the hands of crooks who then made things worse. Owing money with a tax liability is in no way comparable to ruining tens of young lives.

Where there can be comparisons drawn and where folks can get upset is the way our case was reported and investigated. The notion that we somehow cheated everyone because we tried to offset our tax liabilities with the EBT scheme and had a huge debt living out with our means. It’s no different as it was deemed manageable as any business with overdrafts, mortgages, outstanding loans etc. Most clubs in Scotland all had those.

The aftermath of that was all the opposing fans started questioning Rangers fans morality for supporting a club who couldn’t pay small businesses and put some of these businesses out of business. We were asked how could we live with ourselves knowing we screwed the public purse. All we did as fas was turn up to watch our team play football, none of us business experts or any of us have influence over what SDM was doing or how he managed the money. I can understand why now some fans are angry and want to give some of that flack back to the Celtic fans who were gloating of our demise but given what has went on over at parkhead for me that wouldn’t be acceptable, it goes in the face of the standards that as Gers fans we should have.

Celtic fans certainly had no control over the perverts, Celtic fans don’t endorse Paedophilies. Celtic fans I know are disgusted at what has went on but some are falling for what their club is spouting about separate entity and it’s almost a defence wall that has went up not wanting to see their club punished. That’s where I go back to the initial question are the club currently responsible or is the the figures if the past who are to blame and should get punished?

One thing for sure listening to the stuff from the Gray family is heart wrenching, as a Rangers fan my only interest is seeing them get the outcome they want. I don’t see it as a way to goad Celtic fans it’s just the reaction decent people have to hearing about these perverts abusing their trust and power over innocent people that disgusts me
 

Shengus Malengus

Well-Known Member
What is all this “can’t compare” shit you’re arguing about?

Of course you can, we do it on a regular basis in all walks of life.

We’ve all seen the rapist getting 12 month sentences(no justice for the victim).
We’ve all seen minor crimes get longer sentences.
What do we do in here? Yes we compare them, we lament the injustices. We feel for the victims of the more serious crimes who’ve been let down.
So because it’s football and because it’s our team, we have to cease with this type of thinking. Fucking bollocks we will.

How’s about this novel idea.
We can feel deeply for the victims and compare relative punishments.

We do it all the time in every day life.

Carson son, you’re talking utter bollocks for an intelligent man.
 
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deedle

Well-Known Member
My point was about as clear as it can possibly be: If we try and draw parallels between the two situations then we come across as utter fandans. What we have to be doing is asking:

How come 4 people associated with Celtic have been jailed in the past year?
How did Torbett get back to abuse boys after being 'kicked down the stairs' the first time?
What was the relationship between Celtic and The Trophy Centre?​
Why did said relationship continue even after Torbett was jailed first time round?
What was the involvement of some Celtic directors with Torbett's business?​
What was the relationship between Mccafferty and Bennell - it seems sinister as %^*&.​

So just stop with trying to draw parallels between the two. They are in no way comparable.
There is an issue with the £1 million paid to the Trophy Centre after Torbett had been convicted. Two directors of this company were also directors of Celtic. Celtic directors testified on behalf of Torbett at his first trial.

The decision to pay the Trophy Centre was made when Fergus McCann was in charge. Jack McGinn also became SFA President.


These facts take us away from the emotional aspect of child sex abuse and directly into corporate governance issues. Bearing in mind that the SFA still won't clear Alastair Johnston as a 'fit and proper person' - despite warning about the Whyte takeover in 2011 - we have every right to highlight these glaring double standards.
 
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bob1873

Well-Known Member
i do expect the Scottish football authority's to punish them and I expect the punishment to be much bigger then what we got anything less is fucking disgusting
No a snowball In hells chance mate absolutely nothing will happen.
 

LD5

Well-Known Member
I'm baffled as to why people are saying they don't care if they get punished or not and the ones who do are only wanting revenge. Of course I fucking want revenge, my club was nearly finished off for next to no reason yet there is a club that employed a pedophile ring across the city and yous want them to go unscathed. It's not very hard to draw comparisons, one of us done something cheeky and legal, the other done something abhorrent, inhumane, disgusting and majorly illegal. Why the %^*& should we be the ones that pays the bigger price.
 

Masterblue

Well-Known Member
A very fair post Op.
You are talking about News channels and Newspapers sitting on thier hand in silence.
The Sfa are doing nothing!
When is One Scottish Football Club going to stand up and be counted here?
Who ever that is has the right to speak out against ceptic and call it as it is.
Would Rangers do this?
Never would be my guess but when the boot was on the other foot by God the whole of Scottish Football kicked us.
Scottish football is in the gutter because of the corrupt goings on at Hampden.
Its appalling whats going on and not one club has the balls to name and shame the club which has not only brought the game into disrepute but shames everyone of us for letting them get away with these heinous crimes.
 

Teddy bear

Well-Known Member
Celtic should be held accountable and the victims should see the benefit of it.
Any bear that suggests Celtic should be punished with things like stripping of trophies or points deduction are an embarrassment to us, and are doing the victims case no good.
It makes it look like we are only trying to point score rather than get justice when we bring it up, like certain so called journalists say.
 

BlueHaze

Well-Known Member
Personally I think there should be a full open transparent inquiry to the whole murky business,We all know the perverts at the bheastly end of these crimes but we have other individuals in the higher echelons of the cesspit with dirty fingers,In this day and age it might be hard to find the right people honest and neutral enough for such an inquiry but I believe it's the only way to get the justice deserved.
 

Meo-meomeomy

Active Member
You could argue that the whole EBT situation directly influenced what happened on the pitch - because it affected our financial prowess and therefore standard of player and team.
In terms of comparing ‘how bad’ the two things were it’s like looking at wee Jimmy the shoplifter versus Ian Brady.
But in terms of actual football the Celtic situation wouldn’t have affected the quality of their team or ability to win football matches in any way.
The perpetrators of the crimes against these boys are the ones deserving of just punishment. Those who knew and didn’t act should also be investigated and justly dealt with. They as well as the those who carried out the crimes owe the victims grave apologies.
 

CarlukeBear

Well-Known Member
It is all about consequences, if you do something illegal as an individual or a corporation/institution there needs to be a consequence, a deterrent to you & others.
If there are no consequences then law & order breaks down.
 

andrewmont1

Well-Known Member
You could argue that the whole EBT situation directly influenced what happened on the pitch - because it affected our financial prowess and therefore standard of player and team.
In terms of comparing ‘how bad’ the two things were it’s like looking at wee Jimmy the shoplifter versus Ian Brady.
But in terms of actual football the Celtic situation wouldn’t have affected the quality of their team or ability to win football matches in any way.
The perpetrators of the crimes against these boys are the ones deserving of just punishment. Those who knew and didn’t act should also be investigated and justly dealt with. They as well as the those who carried out the crimes owe the victims grave apologies.
Too many of the perps are probably in the grave now. This should have been investigated by the police 30 odd years ago. There was plenty of knowledge then. On your last point Celtic probably lost players because of this. But always, the victims are the important people here.
 

Mossblown_Loyal

Well-Known Member
At least some got the point of my op. Again i am talking about a football punishment, totally seperate from what some keep turning it back to. Many running the club knew it was going on. To say it didn't affect the play on the pitch is untrue. If they were investigated and punished at the time they might not have progressed as a club.

After today we should be pursuing the demise of this mob. Especially after they were forced to admit liability in the recent digby brown case.

They tried to destroy us and manipulated others to join in. They tried to BURY us.

If ever there was a time to get at them for past misdemeanours and criminality, known child abuse and known criminality being covered up. Then this is it.

Building bridges, move on, ffs. If after today some can't see the bigger picture, then i despair and fear for our future as the witch hunt, and clamour for our demise is still well and truly ongoing.
 

Begbie's Moustache

Well-Known Member
EBTs were not illegal at the time and only became so when government closed loophole and retrospectively looked to punish those that employed the scheme. Much like driving at 30 2 years ago in a now 20 zone and police trawl cameras and backdate the speeding offence.
Child abuse has always been illegal
They aren’t illegal now either, let’s get this right. Plenty of people still have them, properly set up and administered (myself included). Rangers set one up which interpreted the law differently than the taxman, who decided to test that interpretation (as with thousands of other people and companies) retrospectively, and it was a close run thing but favoured the taxman, which confirmed a tax bill under dispute plus interest. They never were, and still aren’t, illegal.
 
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