Northern Ireland bears, how did you drive the change in the National teams songbook?

[MagneticFields]

So those 2 things have played no part in Rangers history or where we've drawn our support to become the size of club we are?Ok then.Tell you what let's just drop everything we are because people that hate us don't like it.

The people who hate us are delighted every time we sing this stuff.

 

[55 and counting]

The people who hate us are delighted every time we sing this stuff.

They're delighted everytime people sing the BB or FTP.I really don't think I'm saying anything controversial here.If people want to drop all the traditional songs even the ones that have been proven in the Scottish courts to be non sectarian then I think it's a massive mistake.

 

[Southpaws]

Again people really want to read what I'm saying.I do none of these things at the games that you are saying that I'm trying to support.

Sorry mate, I guess what I am suggesting is a zero tolerance approach to the religious/political/paramilitary baggage. That way we have a chance of fully eradicating it, no half measures!!

 

[Luis Fernandez]

Aye no bother will hand my season ticket in today.As I've already stated numerous times on this thread I haven't shouted FTP or 19th Century Terrorist B's at the games since the club told us to stop in the 00s.

As a grown adult, why did it require the club to tell you to stop shouting those things at a football match?

 

[Il Ciocco]

There was a slow shift at Windsor park. Some fans groups started off with small changes. For example if you heard a chant starting that was going to get fans into trouble groups of guys would start another chant straight away and try to sing over the offending chant. It took a while to be fair the guys over at ourweecountry.com had a fair bit to do with it. Getting the likes of Colin Murray on board was a good help as he promoted the fans and team on national radio every chance he got. There was a fair bit of resistance at the start but it got there in the end. Northern Ireland’s fans are now held in high esteem across Europe and the world and the republican element hate it as there’s now %^*& all they can complain about. Songs wise at least.

At last someone gives the OP a reply on how it was actually achieved.

 

[55 and counting]

4201056, member: 7271"]Sorry mate, I guess what I am suggesting is a zero tolerance approach to the religious/political/paramilitary baggage. That way we have a chance of fully eradicating it, no half measures!![/QUOTE]
I don't really see why we should cut out things that are allowed.Fully onboard with and have been for years as I've said with the stuff that's got us into trouble again.I remember thinking at the St.Josephs game we'd get done for it.I think to ask a group of fans to do away with songs that have been sung for generations and many that have been proven in a court of law to be not against the law is going way way to far.

 

[Il Ciocco]

From my recollection, at the beginning the singing at NI games was choreographed. Someone with a megaphone started the songs and the crowd joined in. If someone started a sectarian song, the guy with the megaphone would drown them out and start another song. After a while it became ingrained in the support that you just didn't sing certain songs. The megaphone is no longer required. To be fair it was a lot smaller crowd that we have at Ibrox so it was easier to implement. However it could work well at away games. I know someone from the Union Bears does this so the club need to work closely with them to come up with a plan.

The interesting thing is that it spread to most teams in the Irish League. For anyone who watched Linfield playing on Thursday you wouldn't have heard one sectarian song and their supporters are some of the hardest line loyalists around.

Having lived in NI all my life and like many others suffered directly from the troubles, it depresses me to hear songs about the IRA, Bobby Sands, the pope etc. Football is an escape and I love to hear songs about our team. There is also no problem with celebrating our culture.

Fantastic mate, Thanks. There’s the template everyone.

 

[55 and counting]

As a grown adult, why did it require the club to tell you to stop shouting those things at a football match?

I was a lot younger then, you never sing them or shout them when you were young daft and full of drink?More or less full support has but guess I'm right bad bastard that club could do without because I done what 99% of us have.This place really isn't representative of the match going Rangers fan if most on here haven't.I bow to your moral superiority.

 

[Rockdefender]

From my recollection, at the beginning the singing at NI games was choreographed. Someone with a megaphone started the songs and the crowd joined in. If someone started a sectarian song, the guy with the megaphone would drown them out and start another song. After a while it became ingrained in the support that you just didn't sing certain songs. The megaphone is no longer required. To be fair it was a lot smaller crowd that we have at Ibrox so it was easier to implement. However it could work well at away games. I know someone from the Union Bears does this so the club need to work closely with them to come up with a plan.

The interesting thing is that it spread to most teams in the Irish League. For anyone who watched Linfield playing on Thursday you wouldn't have heard one sectarian song and their supporters are some of the hardest line loyalists around.

Having lived in NI all my life and like many others suffered directly from the troubles, it depresses me to hear songs about the IRA, Bobby Sands, the pope etc. Football is an escape and I love to hear songs about our team. There is also no problem with celebrating our culture.

Yes that is pretty much what happened. The IFA had a Football For All campaign going for a number of years but it wasn't until the fans led the way themselves that anything changed.

The Amalgamation (and maybe in agreement with the IFA) set up two singing sections, one in the Kop (about 800 fans) and one in the North stand (about 200 fans).

The Kop had a drum and a megaphone and the North stand just a drum. A few new songs were sorted for the start of the campaign We’re not brazil and Sweet Norn Iron etc. If any song started that wasn’t a Northern Ireland song both sections started another song to drown it out.

Away matches helped as well to start the new songs being more popular. After a while TBB, sash etc were never heard. You would still hear the odd one in a few bars on an away match but not as common now as it used to be.

The attendance at Northern Ireland matches was a lot less in them days so it was probably easier to change things but still took time.

 

[Southpaws]

4201056, member: 7271"]Sorry mate, I guess what I am suggesting is a zero tolerance approach to the religious/political/paramilitary baggage. That way we have a chance of fully eradicating it, no half measures!!

I don't really see why we should cut out things that are allowed.Fully onboard with and have been for years as I've said with the stuff that's got us into trouble again.I remember thinking at the St.Josephs game we'd get done for it.I think to ask a group of fans to do away with songs that have been sung for generations and many that have been proven in a court of law to be not against the law is going way way to far.[/QUOTE]

But why must we bring our political and religious baggage to a football match? We weren’t founded on the basis of religion, were we? Isn’t it safer to stick to supporting Rangers and allowing our Scottish and Britishness to speak for its self.

 

[mdingwall]

Addressed at an RST conference about ten years ago and ignored by the club then.

 

[55 and counting]

I don't really see why we should cut out things that are allowed.Fully onboard with and have been for years as I've said with the stuff that's got us into trouble again.I remember thinking at the St.Josephs game we'd get done for it.I think to ask a group of fans to do away with songs that have been sung for generations and many that have been proven in a court of law to be not against the law is going way way to far.

But why must we bring our political and religious baggage to a football match? We weren’t founded on the basis of religion, were we? Isn’t it safer to stick to supporting Rangers and allowing our Scottish and Britishness to speak for its self.[/QUOTE]
In the real world you're asking 1 clubs fans to change a large % of what the fan culture is even if what you're asking them to do isn't against the law or against rules?Come on mate I know you want what's best for the club and takeaway my personal opinion on it, that's not going to happen and 1 of the main reasons is it grossly unfair.

 

[Southpaws]

But why must we bring our political and religious baggage to a football match? We weren’t founded on the basis of religion, were we? Isn’t it safer to stick to supporting Rangers and allowing our Scottish and Britishness to speak for its self.

In the real world you're asking 1 clubs fans to change a large % of what the fan culture is even if what you're asking them to do isn't against the law or against rules?Come on mate I know you want what's best for the club and takeaway my personal opinion on it, that's not going to happen and 1 of the main reasons is it grossly unfair.[/QUOTE]


Clearly you can’t see the wood for the trees here;

British imperialism related to Ireland lost the propaganda war a long time ago, ergo their songs and banners are viewed as celebrating a subjugated culture.

The diaspora has organised itself and has by dint of cultural imperialism and diocese direction of congregational voting blocks gained a significant advantage across everything from media, law and government to the national broadcaster (sic).

Until the non denominational/Protestant/unionist block of our support and wider community fight back in the political sphere we are doomed to this...Saying ‘it’s not fair’ under those circumstances is akin to pissing into a force 10.

The battle will be lost by the promotion of loyalist paramilitary/Bobby Sands/culturally negative banners, chants and songs at Ibrox and at away grounds. If you wish to challenge the prevailing narrative become a politician and encourage similar thinking people to follow you into political battle.

 

[BillySimpson]

The NI RoI game at Windsor Park in 1993 had a particularly vile atmosphere, which a lot of people didn't like, given that half the NI team were catholic. A genuine and successful attempt, described above, was made in the years afterwards to build better relationships, and an end to sectarian songs was in sight. NI supporters clubs invited their RoI equivalent to visit, and a whole new mentality emerged, along with an electric atmosphere. Both NI and RoI fans won plaudits for their contribution to France 2016 - when a NI fan died over there, the RoI fans sang Stand Up For The Ulsterman on minute 24 in tribute, during their next game.

 

[WinkieWATP]

So those 2 things have played no part in Rangers history or where we've drawn our support to become the size of club we are?Ok then.Tell you what let's just drop everything we are because people that hate us don't like it.

History being the key word. History belongs in the past its time to look to the future of the club and these songs are doing nothing but harming the club.

 

[sirstevefleming]

From memory it was largely driven by the ourweecountry lot - who were essentially middle class prods, many London based and not interested in all the paramilitary nonsense. Combination of singing, campaigns etc. took quite a while to get everyone on board

 

[The Huguenot]

Given the constitutional threat, we should stick to being British and defend the union. That is our new culture.

 

[55 and counting]

In the real world you're asking 1 clubs fans to change a large % of what the fan culture is even if what you're asking them to do isn't against the law or against rules?Come on mate I know you want what's best for the club and takeaway my personal opinion on it, that's not going to happen and 1 of the main reasons is it grossly unfair.

Clearly you can’t see the wood for the trees here;

British imperialism related to Ireland lost the propaganda war a long time ago, ergo their songs and banners are viewed as celebrating a subjugated culture.

The diaspora has organised itself and has by dint of cultural imperialism and diocese direction of congregational voting blocks gained a significant advantage across everything from media, law and government to the national broadcaster (sic).

Until the non denominational/Protestant/unionist block of our support and wider community fight back in the political sphere we are doomed to this...Saying ‘it’s not fair’ under those circumstances is akin to pissing into a force 10.

The battle will be lost by the promotion of loyalist paramilitary/Bobby Sands/culturally negative banners, chants and songs at Ibrox and at away grounds. If you wish to challenge the prevailing narrative become a politician and encourage similar thinking people to follow you into political battle.[/QUOTE]
You and others can cry and bitch on here but the match going Rangers fans especially away aren't going to drop orange and loyalist songs that's just fact.And of if it's not against the law I really don't see why they should.

History being the key word. History belongs in the past its time to look to the future of the club and these songs are doing nothing but harming the club.

So just do away with it even if it's nothing to do with this UEFA charge?I'm sorry that's absolute ridiculous.

 

[spirit_of_93]

Thanks bud.

Someone on Twitter mentioned Gary McAllister (not our assitant manager) as a guy that played a big part in doing this, are you aware of him? Is he a Rangers fan and if so would he be someone the club should maybe speak to for advice?

He probably would be. Don’t know if he supports Rangers but I doubt he’d be in any way hostile.

Others who would know much more about it would be Jim Rainey who got an MBE for his efforts and Michael Boyd who worked at the IFA around the time.

 

[Lurgan Loyal]

Good idea OP.
NI and Irish League games have totally stopped any sectarian singing.
Is this maybe a result of our ‘peace process’ where we all are trying to get on?
Is the issue with Rangers and of course Celtic the result of the famed 90 minute bigots who can’t move on?
The club should def be looking into how NI fans transformed and do all they can for us as a fan base.
Two way street though as we the fans also need to play smarter.
No quick fix here but something has to give.

 

[Robert Marshall]

Thats the thing, there is no need to drop everything. Derrys Walls, for example, doesn't get us into bother and it allows folk that want to, to identify with their (and the clubs) roots.

 

[JimmyGQ]

It does make sense.What you wanting us to do drop everything associated with Protestant/Loyalist culture even if it doesn't have FTP or mention 19th Century Terrorists?If so we're another club in blue.

Are Rangers a football club for everyone or a loyalist club? All that crap is irrelevant when going for a day out to watch a football game.

 

[55 and counting]

Are Rangers a football club for everyone or a loyalist club? All that crap is irrelevant when going for a day out to watch a football game.

They're a club for anyone that wants to support them.But they do traditionally draw the vast majority of support that come from that background.The people from different backgrounds know that so obviously don't have a problem with it.

 

[roscof]

There was a slow shift at Windsor park. Some fans groups started off with small changes. For example if you heard a chant starting that was going to get fans into trouble groups of guys would start another chant straight away and try to sing over the offending chant. It took a while to be fair the guys over at ourweecountry.com had a fair bit to do with it. Getting the likes of Colin Murray on board was a good help as he promoted the fans and team on national radio every chance he got. There was a fair bit of resistance at the start but it got there in the end. Northern Ireland’s fans are now held in high esteem across Europe and the world and the republican element hate it as there’s now %^*& all they can complain about. Songs wise at least.

Thank god. A reply to the original question.
A good answer by the way. I can understand what Craig mcColl is getting at. And the important part of his argument actually ties in with crackersbears post.
We need to stop the add ons first. Small steps at a time.
Can you imagine the thousands of Gers fans stopping singing culture songs overnight.
Let’s get them off our backs first, and try to move on slowly.

 

[55 and counting]

There seem to be many on this thread that want to do away with all of that "crap" as they call it.

 

[Tito]

This may come across as an unbelievably naive question, so forgive my ignorance, but what's it like at club level? I'm aware that Linfield has quite an obvious loyalist hue to their support, and the less said about Cliftonville, the better. But what about crusaders, glentoran etc? Do those supports engage in loyalist songs?

 

[Robert Marshall]

They're a club for anyone that wants to support them.But they do traditionally draw the vast majority of support that come from that background.The people from different backgrounds know that so obviously don't have a problem with it.

Rangers did not have Loyalist support until 1969 ( in general) when events in Ulster came to a head.
When we were formed it was for 'The Love Of Football', it was only when the Shipyard workers from Belfast came over that we gained the General support of Orangemen from Ulster, as they could not support the other team in Glasgow as they were formed for Sectarian reason's.
Things in Life move on and it's time the small minority of our fanbase respected the Club's wishes and move on with it.
The only alternative the Club would have is to take their ST off them and surely no one wants to go down that road.

 

[Lurgan Loyal]

This may come across as an unbelievably naive question, so forgive my ignorance, but what's it like at club level? I'm aware that Linfield has quite an obvious loyalist hue to their support, and the less said about Cliftonville, the better. But what about crusaders, glentoran etc? Do those supports engage in loyalist songs?

No, all ditched.

 

[Tito]

No, all ditched.

Cheers mate. When did that happen? Along with the shift in the nation team support, before, after? And how? Apologies for all the questions but as I said, very ignorant of NI club football.

 

[Robert Marshall]

No, all ditched.

I have no knowledge of NI football, but surely if people who have lived through the tragic period in their History,, then we as football fans can drop these very same songs?

 

[55 and counting]

Rangers did not have Loyalist support until 1969 when events in Ulster came to a head.
When we were formed it was for 'The Love Of Football', it was only when the Shipyard workers from Belfast came over that we gained the General support of Orangemen from Ulster, as they could not support the other team in Glasgow as they were formed for Sectarian reason's.
Things in Life move on and it's time the small minority of our fanbase respected the Club's wishes and move on with it.
The only alternative the Club would have is to take their ST off them and surely no one wants to go down that road.

Not arguing with you but there must've been quite a big element of the club being a Protestant club as by 69 we'd not signed a catholic for many years.Albeit take your point that Ulster loyalist songs probably started to gain popularity round about then.

 

[Captain Browning]

I think we need a bit of advice from you guys on how the Northern Ireland support managed to turn a similarly battered and bruised reputation in one that is rightly praised for being one of the best in the World.

What happened for fans to completely change the songbook? Was it pushed by fan groups, was it just done by word of mouth?

An orangised approach was taked by the amalgamation of NISC. When TBB or any other sectarian chant started they were drowned out by other chants such as Green and White Army etc. There was a lot of work went on behind the scenes to get everyone on board. I also remember a number of bass drums were arranged to be at each match and used to drown out chants aswell.

Try telling anyone that follows NI that they have lost any of their identity. The GAWA has evolved and found other ways to express it.

 

[Lurgan Loyal]

Cheers mate. When did that happen? Along with the shift in the nation team support, before, after? And how? Apologies for all the questions but as I said, very ignorant of NI club football.

Prob around the same time as the NI team.
As I said earlier it reflects the change over here.

 

[Robert Marshall]

Not arguing with you but there must've been quite a big element of the club being a Protestant club as by 69 we'd not signed a catholic for many years.Albeit take your that Ulster loyalist songs were probably started to gain popularity round about then.

Up until then, I had always sung Orange sons, first real loyalist song I remember was The night they burned Ardoyne, but to me and many others we just love the songs, Fathers Advice was always my favourite

 

[Robert Marshall]

Not arguing with you but there must've been quite a big element of the club being a Protestant club as by 69 we'd not signed a catholic for many years.Albeit take your point that Ulster loyalist songs probably started to gain popularity round about then.

RC wouldn't sign for us because of their families, Mo Johnston was Souness's fourth attempt at signing
an RC

 

[EKBB]

There was a slow shift at Windsor park. Some fans groups started off with small changes. For example if you heard a chant starting that was going to get fans into trouble groups of guys would start another chant straight away and try to sing over the offending chant. It took a while to be fair the guys over at ourweecountry.com had a fair bit to do with it. Getting the likes of Colin Murray on board was a good help as he promoted the fans and team on national radio every chance he got. There was a fair bit of resistance at the start but it got there in the end. Northern Ireland’s fans are now held in high esteem across Europe and the world and the republican element hate it as there’s now %^*& all they can complain about. Songs wise at least.

This is the bit people need to understand. Our enemies would be sick if we genuinely dropped all this stuff.

 

[55 and counting]

RC wouldn't sign for us because of their families, Mo Johnston was Souness's fourth attempt at signing
an RC

I'm not that young unfortunately that I don't know all about that.If the club was a successful as your pub for getting people to stop singing songs with FTP etc in it we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Lurgan Loyal]

I have no knowledge of NI football, but surely if people who have lived through the tragic period in their History,, then we as football fans can drop these very same songs?

This is the crux of the issue as I said earlier.

 

[roaring meg]

I think we need a bit of advice from you guys on how the Northern Ireland support managed to turn a similarly battered and bruised reputation in one that is rightly praised for being one of the best in the World.

What happened for fans to completely change the songbook? Was it pushed by fan groups, was it just done by word of mouth?

Just drop mention of popes and 19th Century Terrorists. That simple really

 

[BrooklynBlue]

You and others can cry and bitch on here but the match going Rangers fans especially away aren't going to drop orange and loyalist songs that's just fact.And of if it's not against the law I really don't see why they should.
So just do away with it even if it's nothing to do with this UEFA charge?I'm sorry that's absolute ridiculous.

Fair enough. But soon there won't be games to sing at and the Club will stop taking away tickets.

It may not be against the law but the footballing authorities won't particularly care. UEFA's action will have emboldened the domestic game.

After all the trouble of this decade and nearly losing the Club, it's unbelievable our support will deliberately hurt the Club with their actions/songs.

 

[Captain Browning]

This is the crux of the issue as I said earlier.

Completely agree and why I find the support singing songs such as UDR4 cringeworthy. That song has long past its sell by date and I would suspect that it is the last thing any of them would want reminded of by thousands singing about it at Ibrox.

Can any Scottish bears answer this out of curiosity. Do Scottish loyalists that don't follow Rangers have less of a loyalist identity than those that do ?

I'm a proud Ulsterman and member of the loyal orders and grew up in East Belfast during the Troubles. I am confident in my own beliefs and would happily attend Ibrox and not sing about the Pope or any paramilitary loyalist or Republican.

 

[55 and counting]

Fair enough. But soon there won't be games to sing at and the Club will stop taking away tickets.

It may not be against the law but the footballing authorities won't particularly care. UEFA's action will have emboldened the domestic game.

After all the trouble of this decade and nearly losing the Club, it's unbelievable our support will deliberately hurt the Club with their actions/songs.

How are we going to be given sanctions for orange/loyalist songs that aren't sectarian?People ar doing mental gymnastics today we've been done for the super rangers song and a quick burst of BB and people are wanting to do away with the full songbook even though we're not getting our baws booted for them.

 

[songsofglory]

In the same way though the GAWA are getting called Orange Bastards and listening to IRA songs sung at them m.

 

[Minkia]

The perception of Rangers identity as a British/Unionist/Loyalist club is well cemented in popular culture and is not going to be eradicated anytime soon. I certainly don't believe is it dependent on the singing of certain songs, going forward.

The Sash My Father Wore may have had resonance at a time when the Orange Order had significantly more political influence and a larger membership (in the bygone days of yore). Is there really a case for it continuing to be heard at a Rangers game in 2019?

Derry's Walls? We can't even get the words right, so I'm not convinced it is quite as totemic as some on here would have you believe.

There is a time and place for all things and, for the singing of the above songs, I'm not convinced it's at a football match.

 

[EndOfDays]

What a load of utter tosh.

Last time we did a "what religion are you" poll in the lounge less than 25% voted prod.

 

[Arkanoid]

Addressed at an RST conference about ten years ago and ignored by the club then.

Time for it to be readdressed then, there should be an appetite on both sides 10 years later

 

[BrooklynBlue]

How are we going to be given sanctions for orange/loyalist songs that aren't sectarian?People ar doing mental gymnastics today we've been done for the super rangers song and a quick burst of BB and people are wanting to do away with the full songbook even though we're not getting our baws booted for them.

No one is doing mental gymnastics - we don't need to. 3000 people missing from Thursday inform us of the consequences.

Do you trust elements of the support to stop with the add-ons and quick bursts of tunes? Tomorrow will be very interesting.

 

[Boldvale]

As an ulster bear I don't think we need to stop our ulster culture . We just need to stop the add ons.after all Tbb with an alternative to the word 19th Century Terrorist blood (celtic scum maybe )would still be a great rousing song and the scum would still hear it without us saying it .win win

Not saying I agree with it, but UEFA have decreed TBB in all its forms (words , melody) is gone as far as we are concerned.

 

[EndOfDays]

Well that's fine.Others myself included don't want to just bend over and drop everything that's made the club and support for decades.I'm not advocating FTPing or shouting about 19th Century Terrorist b's.Just traditional songs that celebrate loyalist/orange culture that are intertwined with Rangers and the support whether people like yourself like it or not.Coyld you imagine the huddleboard even discussing dropping Irish Republican songs?

If their club was heading toward being banned from Europe because of it them you probably would.

 

[minder]

I'm assuming you'll write to the SFA about the Scots national team anthem.I don't see the problem with it as long as the song doesn't mention another group of people in a derogatory fashion.This is what I and others talk about.24 hours on almost and already people in our own support are trying to move the goalposts on to songs that weren't the problem as far as getting reported.

Do you have a problem with our own national anthem?