Opposition Youth Players Part One

iaatpies said:
Clearly what Scottish football is doing right now isnt really working. ElFideldo will know far more about the players who are currently within club systems and whether or not there is potential there, but it's interesting to note his views on what were considered the brighter prospects over the past few years. What stops a young prospect from realising their potential? Is it something that we're doing wrong? Is it down to the player? Is it some kind of inherent flaw in our kids? What I do know is that of all the kids I've seen on loan in the lower leagues, the ones who have impressed most weren't from either Rangers or Celtic. Thats a massive concern.
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Hope elfideldo doesn't mind me sticking in my tuppence worth but imho there are a number of issues with the cultivation of young players in Scotland.

The dimunition of schools football being one of the big problems. When I was young schools football was arguably the most important and thriving sphere of the game. The 'S' form system was in place but the vast majority of football was played at schoolboy and boys club level. Boys club and schools football allowed boys to play within an environment where height, build, athleticism, game management, positional awareness and teamwok was allowed to develop over a decent timeframe in teams with mostly the same players during the period.

Being prevented from playing for the school or boys club (in the early 20's tbf) also contributed to boys becoming 'over focused' on pro youth, fearing being discarded.

Altough competitive it was also a learning ground without the pressures that modern academy players face. Clubs would have the public believe, because Pro Youth 'isn't competitive until u/20 (or whatever the current format is, I've lost track)', that there is a less pressured environment for the boys to grow and flourish in.

The problem is there is incredible pressure as boys are, rightly, constantly assessed and then told if they are being kept or released at the end of each season. This becomes an extremely anxious time for teenage boys and it becomes worse the longer they stay with a club as more and more of their teammates fall by the wayside.

The horrible term 'jersey filler' starts coming into play, when the club coaches identify potential pro players but need other boys who are maybe not at the same standard or height or power, to enable the team to keep running.

I know that one club did have an agreement with a local boys club to farm out players who were potentially good but hadn't developed as much physically as the 'top boys'. I don't know of any who progressed as a result of this but I have been away from watching Pro Youth for some time.

The national side of things, as has been mentioned, was fairly political and heavily reliant on celtc primarily, then ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen. I really believe who the head of youth development was at any given club could sway the selection process for squads.

The turnover in academy football football was remarkable, with 'provincial clubs' circling like hawks to hoover up released players from ourselves and celtc, sometimes to the detriment of existing players already on their books.

I know a lot was made of Jimmy Sinclair wanting big strong boys but this wasn't restricted to Rangers, I know for a fact that one highly respected head of youth took a good look at the parents of a boy to guage what kind of height and build he could achieve, genetics being kind.

Sorry to go on a bit, but this is a subject close to my heart having endured the trials and tribulations of the system for about 10 years due to a family connection.

WATP
 
muz73 said:
Hope elfideldo doesn't mind me sticking in my tuppence worth but imho there are a number of issues with the cultivation of young players in Scotland.

The dimunition of schools football being one of the big problems. When I was young schools football was arguably the most important and thriving sphere of the game. The 'S' form sytsem was in place but the vast majority of football was played at schoolboy and boys club level. Boys club and schools football allowed boys to play within an environment where height, build, athleticism, game management, positional awareness and teamwok was allowed to develop over a decent timeframe in teams with mostly the same players during the period.

Altough competitive it was also a learning ground without the pressures that modern academy players face. Clubs would have the public believe, because Pro Youth 'isn't competitive until u/20 (or whatever the current format is, I've lost track)', that there is a less pressured environment for the boys to grow and flourish in.

The problem is there is incredible pressure as boys are, rightly, constantly assessed and then told if they are being kept or released at the end of each season. This becomes an extremely anxious time for teenage boys and it becomes worse the longer they stay with a club as more and more of their teammates fall by the wayside.

The horrible term 'jersey filler' starts coming into play, when the club coaches identify potential pro players but need other boys who are maybe not at the same standard or height or power, to enable the team to keep running.

I know that one club did have an agreement with a local boys club to fam out players who were potentially good but hadn't developed as much physically as the 'top boys'. I don't know of any who progressed as a result of this but I have been away from watching Pro Youth for some time.

The national side of things, as has been mentioned, was fairly political and heavily reliant on celtc primarily, then ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen. I really believe who the head of youth development was at any given club could sway the selection process for squads.

The turnover in academy football football was remarkable, with 'provincial clubs' circling like hawks to hoover up released players from ourselves and celtc, sometimes to the detriment of existing players already on their books.

I know a lot was made of Jimmy Sinclair wanting big strong boys but this wasn't restricted to Rangers, I know for a fact that one highly respected head of youth took a good look at the parents of a boy to guage what kind of height and build he could achieve, genetics being kind.

Sorry to go on a bit, but this is a subject close to my heart having endured the trials and tribulations of the system for about 10 years due to a family connection.

WATP
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Great post mate... I do find this stuff fascinating. As a country and as a football club I still feel we have a lot to learn and improve on, in terms of youth development. No doubt some of our methods and attitudes are dated....
 
IanDurrant said:
Great post mate... I do find this stuff fascinating. As a country and as a football club I still feel we have a lot to learn and improve on, in terms of youth development. No doubt some of our methods and attitudes are dated....
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Tbh I'm not sure there is an easy answer, but having seen what goes on 1st hand, albeit a few years back, it is nowhere near being a modern progressive environment for youngsters learning the trade.

I would make it clear I don't blame the coaches, more the hierarchy who seem to have blinkers on re boys developing at different ages and under less pressure.

WATP
 
Interesting to see you mention schools football Muz. I think fewer kids are playing football and thats a massive issue. Part of it will be schools football. Part will be the concentration of funding at a few pro youth clubs. I know a lot of lower league sides are struggling to fund youth systems or are abandoning them completely, relying on local boys clubs to develop kids.,
 
muz73 said:
Hope elfideldo doesn't mind me sticking in my tuppence worth but imho there are a number of issues with the cultivation of young players in Scotland.

The dimunition of schools football being one of the big problems. When I was young schools football was arguably the most important and thriving sphere of the game. The 'S' form system was in place but the vast majority of football was played at schoolboy and boys club level. Boys club and schools football allowed boys to play within an environment where height, build, athleticism, game management, positional awareness and teamwok was allowed to develop over a decent timeframe in teams with mostly the same players during the period.

Being prevented from playing for the school or boys club (in the early 20's tbf) also contributed to boys becoming 'over focused' on pro youth, fearing being discarded.

Altough competitive it was also a learning ground without the pressures that modern academy players face. Clubs would have the public believe, because Pro Youth 'isn't competitive until u/20 (or whatever the current format is, I've lost track)', that there is a less pressured environment for the boys to grow and flourish in.

The problem is there is incredible pressure as boys are, rightly, constantly assessed and then told if they are being kept or released at the end of each season. This becomes an extremely anxious time for teenage boys and it becomes worse the longer they stay with a club as more and more of their teammates fall by the wayside.

The horrible term 'jersey filler' starts coming into play, when the club coaches identify potential pro players but need other boys who are maybe not at the same standard or height or power, to enable the team to keep running.

I know that one club did have an agreement with a local boys club to farm out players who were potentially good but hadn't developed as much physically as the 'top boys'. I don't know of any who progressed as a result of this but I have been away from watching Pro Youth for some time.

The national side of things, as has been mentioned, was fairly political and heavily reliant on celtc primarily, then ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen. I really believe who the head of youth development was at any given club could sway the selection process for squads.

The turnover in academy football football was remarkable, with 'provincial clubs' circling like hawks to hoover up released players from ourselves and celtc, sometimes to the detriment of existing players already on their books.

I know a lot was made of Jimmy Sinclair wanting big strong boys but this wasn't restricted to Rangers, I know for a fact that one highly respected head of youth took a good look at the parents of a boy to guage what kind of height and build he could achieve, genetics being kind.

Sorry to go on a bit, but this is a subject close to my heart having endured the trials and tribulations of the system for about 10 years due to a family connection.

WATP
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Pro youth football in Scotland has not only ruined schools football grassroots football
boys club football and BB football since it was introduced but worryingly more it’s completely stopped the high standard of players that graced our game including the tanner baw players

60s to early 90s you could walk the dug anywhere in Glasgow and pitches were full with games going on and loads of spectators watching 7 days a week
Matches were great with the standard exceptional
While this was happening there was a conveyor belt of talent coming through at every club in Scotland

what you have now is all those avenues of football ruined and on its knees due to the implementation of pro youth football in Scotland

time for a shake up of the system or we will never bring through the next Greig Durrant Baxter Jinky Johnstone Dalglish or Super Coop of days gone by

Likes of Willie Henderson Davie Wilson Derek Johnstone Andy Gray and Alan Hansen couldn’t get a regular game with Scotland or even picked for squad that’s how good the talent pool was back in the day let that sink in
 
Forgot to add Matthew Shiels. Looked physically up to the standard of adult football but positional sense was poor. I know he started out as a striker and has now moved to playing wide midfield/wingback and that he has had injury problems, but his basic skill and positional play wasn't even at League One level.
 
elfideldo said:
Scotland youth squads have always been a bit political. These days I feel the authorities have to promote the Development Schools, therefore if they are two players close the will go for the SFA Development school player. I also think they sometimes pick players to balance the squad over a number of clubs. Just my opinion of course.
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What is your opinion on the development schools?

IMO - from what I have seen, I do believe it’s obvious that Scotland are starting to produce more promising players with better skills and traits.

We must be doing something right somewhere, whether that’s at a club level or at the development schools.
 
iaatpies said:
Forgot to add Matthew Shiels. Looked physically up to the standard of adult football but positional sense was poor. I know he started out as a striker and has now moved to playing wide midfield/wingback and that he has had injury problems, but his basic skill and positional play wasn't even at League One level.
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Maybe it would have been better to forget than come on a slaughter a young player who you obviously don’t like
 
Yankeeger said:
Maybe it would have been better to forget than come on a slaughter a young player who you obviously don’t like
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Pretending that he's going to make it does nobody any favours. He isn't good enough for Rangers and right now he doesnt look good enough for tier 1 or 2 in Scotland. It's not personal. Its reality.
 
iaatpies said:
Pretending that he's going to make it does nobody any favours. He isn't good enough for Rangers and right now he doesnt look good enough for tier 1 or 2 in Scotland. It's not personal. Its reality.
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You are touching on one of the problems right here.

The clubs are trying to develop players who they can sell on, not neccesarily become one club legends and the amount of pressure on these boys to perform is, to say the least, intense.

Football is a horrible 'industry' and the most cut-throat I know, I think that's why I now hardly ever berate a player for perceived lack of ability, because to get to the pro- ranks is an achievement itself nowadays.

WATP
 
Arran Honey Pear said:
Jeezo - how backward.
Good coaches will say to one of their assistants in every game - you watch the opposition.
Much harder to look past your own team and recognise the strengths/weaknesses of other team. But important to identify future talent.
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And this happens at every level, right through to first team.
There are times that you get that first tip.
You’ll get the idea and make a point of watching again and again, compiling your “dossier” adding in personality, character, how he plays against lower level than us.
Possibly what happened with Cuellar.
 
Yankeeger said:
Pro youth football in Scotland has not only ruined schools football grassroots football
boys club football and BB football since it was introduced but worryingly more it’s completely stopped the high standard of players that graced our game including the tanner baw players

60s to early 90s you could walk the dug anywhere in Glasgow and pitches were full with games going on and loads of spectators watching 7 days a week
Matches were great with the standard exceptional
While this was happening there was a conveyor belt of talent coming through at every club in Scotland

what you have now is all those avenues of football ruined and on its knees due to the implementation of pro youth football in Scotland

time for a shake up of the system or we will never bring through the next Greig Durrant Baxter Jinky Johnstone Dalglish or Super Coop of days gone by

Likes of Willie Henderson Davie Wilson Derek Johnstone Andy Gray and Alan Hansen couldn’t get a regular game with Scotland or even picked for squad that’s how good the talent pool was back in the day let that sink in
Click to expand...
No bother Granda
 
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