Our ball retention

steveski said:
Case in point.
We had a free-kick 10 yards in the Utd half. All Utd players behind the ball. Tav passes the ball slightly back to Barren(?) who is quickly closed down so he passes the ball back to Soutar who in turn is pressed so he passes it pack to Proper who then passes it back to Butland who then balloons the ball up the park where a Utd player wins a header and they regain possession.
It happens continuously throughout our games.
Its absolutely infuriating.
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This is one of the worst cases of ball retention we do other teams bomb it into our box
 
Danty said:
It's not just that though. Was there any point in the second half today you felt like we had control of the game and could move Dundee Utd about at will? It was like basketball at times with the amount of turnovers. We just don't control games of football well enough. Compare and contrast with Celtic who do.
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Yeah but I think that'll come with games. Look at the number of new guys we had on the pitch today. It'll take time to gel. Not sure the comparison is entirely fair when they basically just replaced O'Reilly with Engels, so they're already playing as a unit. As I say, I think we could 'control' the game by taking the easy option and playing passes along the back line, as we have done previously, but I'd much prefer to see us continue to be aggressive, frustrating as it will be at times, as we will give up possession much more often. But hopefully less and less as we progress.
 
Danty said:
It's terrible. We don't dominate possession at all in games. Butland was kicking it long the full second half. The midfield three aren't really possession based footballers.
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I don’t really mind it f we don’t dominate possession as long as when we do have the ball we have a clear plan and execute it more often than not, we watched so many games under Beale and Gio where we had the ball for ages but were so utterly boring and ponderous.
 
seeing glimpses and hearing about how clement wants to play it's high intensity , direct and decisive passing ... my worry is he wants to play at a level our players can't play at ... hence they keep losing possession
 
Gazzabear v2.0 said:
Our distribution from the back is woeful just now, but not something that can't be improved, both CBs seem scared to play ball into middle, so end up putting Butland under pressure time and again. We need to work on the little triangles that let us play out
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I hope this isn’t trying to make excuses for Butland’s distribution.
 
RH_2020 said:
I don’t really mind it f we don’t dominate possession as long as when we do have the ball we have a clear plan and execute it more often than not, we watched so many games under Beale and Gio where we had the ball for ages but were so utterly boring and ponderous.
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If we had a clear plan, would opposition coaches not nullify it?
This “clear plan” idea is not as simple as some think it should be.
 
BBBear said:
seeing glimpses and hearing about how clement wants to play it's high intensity , direct and decisive passing ... my worry is he wants to play at a level our players can't play at ... hence they keep losing possession
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That’s probably it in a nutshell.
He has the blue sky idea that you describe but, on top of your assertion, it isn’t quite as easy against ten players in front of you only forty yards from goal.
Even City can’t play through this as regularly as they’d want.
 
Bond said:
Massive drop off from when we had Jack, Davis, Kamara and Aribo.

I always thought that was key to our success in Europe was how good they were at keeping the ball.
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They were good players for us but let’s not forget they got pelters plenty of times on here too
 
tazzabear said:
If we had a clear plan, would opposition coaches not nullify it?
This “clear plan” idea is not as simple as some think it should be
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Of course they would try but it’s better to have some sort of idea of what you want to do with the ball than not and just aimlessly keep the ball waiting on the opposition to make a mistake.

Nullifying a plan is easier said than done, why haven’t we been able to take much from the OF games recently, they have a plan and way of playing, we don’t appear to.
 
It's shocking that players who practice so much with a football can't find a pass or keep the ball for more than 10 seconds before giving it away.

I couldn't believe the difference in quality in the 10 minutes I watched of the Spurs/Arsenal game.

Phil, the coaches and players need to work extra hard on improving this.
 
Decision making all over the park is poor. The number of times we manage to go from a promising attacking position to the ball being back with our centre half is unbelievable. We seem to avoid attacking. Such a frustrating watch.
 
Has anyone here ever been able to sit in at auchenhowie and watch a full first team training session or know what the coaches do. Our basics such as passing, receiving/protecting ball, headers, shooting, tackling have all been poorish under several managers now.

To me it feels there is a coaching/training style the club has adopted which only seems to keep us ticking over fitness wise and the bare minimum of practise of the basics. I despair watching those piggy in the middle clips we get shown in training vids which are generally pish poor with players showing all the poor passing and control we see in matches.

You can find dozens and dozens of clips on social media of football training routines for expansive passing/shooting etc that can all be quite intricate but show players zipping the ball at pace and constantly moving around in circles or around cones in various directions so they get to receive and return ball at different angles etc. There is also plenty where you have 2 v 2, or 3 v 3, 4 v 4 that encouraged crisp passing and defending.

Does anyone know if we practise anything like that? By the way none of the clips I looked at had 2 in the middle with 5 around playing poor passes around.

It drives me mad that our players don’t improve their basic footballing skills or worse regress the, while with us.

The emphasis to play it safe or play it back also has to change, the manager, coaches should be encouraging forward passes. 1-2’s, breaking the lines etc. the sort of thing we saw in first 30 today which then we stopped doing after that.

We can definitely improve our basics and style of play.
 
RH_2020 said:
Of course they would try but it’s better to have some sort of idea of what you want to do with the ball than not and just aimlessly keep the ball waiting on the opposition to make a mistake.

Nullifying a plan is easier said than done, why haven’t we been able to take much from the OF games recently, they have a plan and way of playing, we don’t appear to.
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I can’t understand why this would be the case.
If you’re right, wouldn’t City and Arsenal, Real Madrid and the like not be scoring a lot more?
 
I think our problem is in central midfield and the striker.

We need someone who can hold the ball. Morelos would be ideal in this team, and in the glimpses of Igamane we have someone able to play that role. Dessers just can’t do it. Some of Dessers link up can be good but you need players around him quickly to make anything happen. He can’t keep the ball waiting for players to reach him and play breaks down.

Our midfield is far too spread out. Barron is a good player but he comes too deep for the ball. There’s then too big a gap between him and Dio. Ideally Barron be taking the ball further up which brings the whole team further forward but also a keeps the midfield a bit more compact.

Maybe a midfield 3 of Barron, Dio and Raskin with Cortes, Bajrami and Igamane ahead of them could work. Dio can interchange with Bajrami, Raskin and Barron can take turns taking the ball from the defence and the other more box to box. This will bring our players closer together and should see better retention.
 
Great for 10 mins against dhims. Brilliant for 25 mins today then revert to normal. Periods when we played a high press we look really good. Do we run out of energy or lose confidence? No idea but it's so frustrating.
 
Danty said:
We just don't control games of football well enough. Compare and contrast with Celtic who do.
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Stop using those cvnts as a benchmark please.

Plenty others to choose from, for example, this...
Alfie shhh! said:
It's shocking that players who practice so much with a football can't find a pass or keep the ball for more than 10 seconds before giving it away.

I couldn't believe the difference in quality in the 10 minutes I watched of the Spurs/Arsenal game.

Phil, the coaches and players need to work extra hard on improving this.
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Thewandofpedro said:
They were good players for us but let’s not forget they got pelters plenty of times on here too
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I’ll hold my hands up and say I used to criticise the lack of goals from that midfield.

Only now do I probably appreciate the control of games they gave us.
 
I actually thought our ball retention was an improvement today compared to previous games. It was our finishing that was terrible today.
 
JC85 said:
There was a very real feeling we'd drop points today. We didn't, but the forum is full of negativity anyway.
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That would be because we have eyes!
That team was in a lower division last season yet we're supposed to think it's a hard away game!
 
Lack of movement (Barron excluded) is meaning there is a lack of options and it makes every ball look like a suicide pass.
Even when Scumdee were pushing, we couldn't find space.
I still don't think our midfield is working as a unit. The gaps between Dio and Barron is huge at times and balls that fall in centre circle are mopped up by opposition.
One thing i remember (yes blue tinted glasses) from 55 season was back tracking when we didn't have the ball. There are far too many not doing this. Dio is lazy, Cortes stops, Dessers too busy waving his hands looking for fouls, Tav jogging.... It is the basics of team work, clearly lacking in fitness..or desire.
 
It's absolutely brutal amd has been for ages.

Another aspect that Clement has not addressed or improved.

We got away with it yesterday against absolutely awful opposition. But if it doesn't improve we can kiss goodbye to anything this season.

The lack of cohesion generally is something that is terrible.

So frustrating to watch.
 
Danty said:
It's terrible. We don't dominate possession at all in games. Butland was kicking it long the full second half. The midfield three aren't really possession based footballers.
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There lies your problem,good teams dictate games we don't have those players in midfield yet.
 
It's all about decision making. Far to often we play the wrong pass or execute the pass poorly and cause our own problems.

This is where I'd expect to see vast improvement installed by a good coach.
 
steveski said:
Case in point.
We had a free-kick 10 yards in the Utd half. All Utd players behind the ball. Tav passes the ball slightly back to Barren(?) who is quickly closed down so he passes the ball back to Soutar who in turn is pressed so he passes it pack to Proper who then passes it back to Butland who then balloons the ball up the park where a Utd player wins a header and they regain possession.
It happens continuously throughout our games.
Its absolutely infuriating.
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Its just not good enough,a lot of people i know saying the same thing.What are they been taught/ told on the training ground because whatever it is its not working.You can sense total fear off the players when being pressed they just want an easy pass away,no one being brave on the ball,and a lot cant pass a straight ball 3 yds which is really concerning.
 
I think he wants us to take more chances with the ball, get it forward quicker and drive at opponents.

The 6 yard pass between tav to Goldson and back, used to drive me mental.

I think the issue for this style if people showing for the ball. The passer needs 2-3 movement options to move quickly, sometime (against them) we hide. Dessers especially. This means we turn back and take less chances. Its a new team and will come together the more they interlink.

Whilst never happy losing the ball, I much prefer us taking a risk on it, than retaining for the sake of retaining
 
Bond said:
Massive drop off from when we had Jack, Davis, Kamara and Aribo.

I always thought that was key to our success in Europe was how good they were at keeping the ball.
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In Europe, yeah. Domestically there was far, far too many games with those 4 where it was constant side to side passing with absolutely no penetration.
 
DavyBlue said:
It's kind of stating the obvious, but the sheer lack of intelligence in our play is absolutely dumbfounding.
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Lawrence's reverse pass to Cortes yesterday was pretty clever, as was Diomande's to put Dessers through 1 v1, same with Iganame to put Lawrence through 1 v 1 as well, Dessers 1st time pass to Lawrence for the goal. Cortes's link up play with Jefte wasn't too shabby either.

Are you 'absolutely dumbfounded' because you may not quite understand football?
 
FS2022 said:
Lawrence's reverse pass to Cortes yesterday was pretty clever, as was Diomande's to put Dessers through 1 v1, same with Iganame to put Lawrence through 1 v 1 as well, Dessers 1st time pass to Lawrence for the goal. Cortes's link up play with Jefte wasn't too shabby either.

Are you 'absolutely dumbfounded' because you may not quite understand football?
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And all these trophies we keep picking up. Clever, eh ?? :rolleyes:
 
I think this will always be the case with the style of football Clement likes to play (direct, ball forward into channels as quickly as possible)

Leads to a higher proportion of "risky" passes which are less likely to come off.
 
wsb&warmy said:
That one at the end where Raskin had unchallenged possession of the ball, but was looking up for so long that the ball ran out of play for a throw in, just typifies how careless we are. It happens all too often all over the park.

Folk moan about 'structure' and 'shape' but most of our problems stem from individual errors that lead to pressure being put on the whole team.
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This. There are structural issues, but there's also just a complete lack of focus and concentration. That comes from the manager to a degree but he can't hold their hands or force them to do their jobs properly.

They're inconsistent and liable to lose concentration. And those are qualities which really separate decent players from the very good ones.
 
Brentmeister General said:
I think this is the biggest issue we have and have done for a while. The amount of times we turn the ball over is criminal, from the back but also when we are in good areas, ball being hit behind the man or too far ahead.

We started the 2nd half with 5 centre midfielders but could barely put 2 passes together.

Forget systems or tactics we need to really improve in our basic passing.
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Said it before. Clement should have had EVERY player in training the full two weeks of the international break and had them work on every aspect of our play that was clearly shown up when we got horsed by the scum. Our set pieces. Our fitness. Our passing. Our shooting. Our intensity.
 
DavyBlue said:
And all these trophies we keep picking up. Clever, eh ?? :rolleyes:
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Erm, you didn't mention trophies. You said you were 'absolutely dumbfounded' due to our lack of footballing intelligence. I just gave you a few examples of that not being the case and you've brought up trophies?

You're not quite sure what you're talking about, are you?
 
Part of the issue is options

Dessers doesn't give the options for the midfield, if he does it generally doesn't stick.

Add that the midfielders seem to be playing individually rather than closer together and creating angles, it just means we cant beat a press or play fast between each other.
 
FS2022 said:
Erm, you didn't mention trophies. You said you were 'absolutely dumbfounded' due to our lack of footballing intelligence. I just gave you a few examples of that not being the case and you've brought up trophies?

You're not quite sure what you're talking about, are you?
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Our play is terrible.

Poor ball retention, lack of cohesion, poor movement, lack of control, partnerships not working.

Hence why we have endured such poor performances, results and lack of success for years. And Clement has not improved us in that respect.

Bit if you are happy with what we are producing then you are very easily pleased.
 
DavyBlue said:
Our play is terrible.

Poor ball retention, lack of cohesion, poor movement, lack of control, partnerships not working.

Hence why we have endured such poor performances, results and lack of success for years. And Clement has not improved us in that respect.

Bit if you are happy with what we are producing then you are very easily pleased.
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We're a month into the new season with a turnover of 30 players. The manager has literally had to spell it out to, lets just say, the less football aware in our support (people like you) that its not going to be instant, we wont see the best of this team until the season progresses.

Low and behold though, people are 'absolutely dumbfounded' when this new squad don't have instant partnerships or are perfectly coherent already.

'Absolutely dumbfounded' though? What a riddy even writing that.
 
We seem to spend ages playing about the back 4 with the ball almost playing ourselves into danger. I'm not sure if it's a tactic or it's just lack of movement, we don't really have anyone dropping off to pick the ball up and try and create something.
 
ScrabsterLoyal said:
It's amazing how many opposing team players can - on their own - ride tackles from 2/3 or our players and still get a pass off. It's a horrible watch sometimes. Also, the lazy flicks/passes that have not chance of getting through from us.
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I've noticed the same. It's at the point that you start to think, if one of their players went on a mazy from their own box they would probably eventually score. We very rarely manage to tackle anyone. We cut out passes and maybe in a 50/50 charge for a ball we come out on top, but when someone is running with the ball, we just can't get it off them.
 
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FS2022 said:
We're a month into the new season with a turnover of 30 players. The manager has literally had to spell it out to, lets just say, the less football aware in our support (people like you) that its not going to be instant, we wont see the best of this team until the season progresses.

Low and behold though, people are 'absolutely dumbfounded' when this new squad don't have instant partnerships or are perfectly coherent already.

'Absolutely dumbfounded' though? What a riddy even writing that.
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In fairness. The players who started, have in the main being playing together for a relatively long period of time. It isn't much to ask that they have the ability to pass a ball all of fifteen yards. We look an awful lot like the rest of the league when it comes to misplaced passes turning possession over.

Propper has barely been here but even barron and jefte have played a fair few games now. Other than that, the rest have been here since minimum January last year.
 
So, according to this thread, we can’t retain the ball, can’t pass, can’t tackle, can’t defend, can’t score, are too slow and too small, looks like a relegation battle then :))
 
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