Pele claims he was a better player than ‘one skill’ Lionel Messi

[Drumchapel-Bear]

I seen a stat online regarding Pele (for the folk saying he only scored so many goals in Brazil because the football was dire etc).

Santos toured Europe to play all the European teams

Games played: 131
Goals scored: 146

Not too shabby at all.

 

[bilkobear]

Is the general consensus in Argentina not that Maradona is the GOAT? They rate him above Messi do they not?

Messi is always going to have the accusation leveled against him that he didn't leave his comfort blanket and Barca and his lack of success with the Argies.

Pele is also on shaky ground because to older Brazilians of his era, he wasn't even the best Brazilian!

 

[giogaddi]

Is the general consensus in Argentina not that Maradona is the GOAT? They rate him above Messi do they not?

Messi is always going to have the accusation leveled against him that he didn't leave his comfort blanket and Barca and his lack of success with the Argies.

I'm not sure how comfortable it is being the main man for what has largely been the best team in the world his entire career. The pressure is enormous.

 

[richmond23]

Let's not forget the fact that Messi is a drugs cheat.

HGH is a banned substance but he was "allowed" to take it due to being a midget.

 

[bilkobear]

I seen a stat online regarding Pele (for the folk saying he only scored so many goals in Brazil because the football was dire etc).

Santos toured Europe to play all the European teams

Games played: 131
Goals scored: 146

Not too shabby at all.

Yes, but I am sure it was a money generating exercise.
I have a programme upstairs when they played Plymouth Argyle.
I don't know all the other teams they played in Europe, but if this was a comparison then maybe it wasn't always top drawer clubs.

 

[Jacrispy]

The same token you said Maradona wouldn't last in today's game. That is utter claptrap. He'd more than likely excel even more so.

And still nothing to back that up and zero logic. Go on, tell me in detail why a mental junkie would excel in the modern game where being a proper athlete in peak physical condition is necessary, tell me how a mad junkie maintains the discpline to do that.......

 

[WestrayGer]

Oh dear where do we even begin with this??

There's a foul in Maradona's day ie a REAL hatchet man foul and tapping someone's leg today and them going down like a virgin on a hoor.

Players go down now easier because they gain an advantage from it due to a change in refereeing and rules. Give modern players rules from 40 years ago and they wouldn't go down as easily. It's called adapting.

 

[govwalker]

And still nothing to back that up and zero logic. Go on, tell me in detail why a mental junkie would excel in the modern game where being a a proper athlete in peak physical condition is necessary, tell me how a mad junkie maintains the discpline to do that.......

Tell me how Messi would of got on without a banned drug to help growth then eh smart arse.

 

[Jacrispy]

Let's not forget the fact that Messi is a drugs cheat.

HGH is a banned substance but he was "allowed" to take it due to being a midget.

Only people who run with that are those with too much empty space between the ears. If he’d done anything illegal he’d have been pulled up and banned long before he hit their first team.

He was given it as a medical treatment to bring his hormone levels to that of a “normal” person. It’s no different that diabetics taking insulin so their body can absorb a substance that it can’t secrete for itself due to an illness or abnormality.

 

[Jacrispy]

Tell me how Messi would of got on without a banned drug to help growth then eh smart arse.

He wouldn’t, but he wasn’t taking any banned substance illegally or for performance enhancing reasons.

You need to go and have a wurthers original and either answer me or sit down and stop making an arse of yourself.

 

[govwalker]

Players go down now easier because they gain an advantage from it due to a change in refereeing and rules. Give modern players rules from 40 years ago and they wouldn't go down as easily. It's called adapting.

I'm pretty sure these spice boys today had been tackled like what was allowed 30/40 years ago they wouldn't be getting back up.

 

[govwalker]

He wouldn’t, but he wasn’t taking any banned substance illegally or for performance enhancing reasons.

You need to go and have a wurthers original and either answer me or sit down and stop making an arse of yourself.

Oh here he goes again with the ageist crap.

Seriously you've got issues against people of certain ages.

A very bitter wee man.

Oh it's werther's btw

 

[Jacrispy]

I'm pretty sure these spice boys today had been tackled like what was allowed 30/40 years ago they wouldn't be getting back up.

You’re embarrassing yourself

Spice boys bwahaha. The players of the modern game are bigger and stronger than the stick figures that allegedly stood up to all out assaults back when you were watching Maradona 7 games every 4 years. And the defenders are also bigger, stronger, faster and more agile.

 

[GR6Ger]

You can say what you want when there’s no way to prove you wrong.

Pele had the privilege of playing for the best national team in the world and the best team in the country.

Maradona didn’t have that honour and neither has Messi.

 

[Jacrispy]

Oh here he goes again with the agest crap.

Seriously you've got issues against people of certain ages.

A very bitter wee man.

Oh it's werther's btw

It’s “ageist” btw

 

[RangersLoyal1990]

The standard in every single position is far superior today, Messi and Ronaldo are the greatest ever players and I don't care what you old farts say

 

[govwalker]

You’re embarrassing yourself

Spice boys bwahaha. The players of the modern game are bigger and stronger than the stick figures that allegedly stood up to all out assaults back when you were watching Maradona 7 games every 4 years. And the defenders are also bigger, stronger, faster and more agile.

Embarrassing myself?

Come back when you can spell.

 

[giogaddi]

Let's not forget the fact that Messi is a drugs cheat.

HGH is a banned substance but he was "allowed" to take it due to being a midget.

This is absolutely moronic.

 

[TPB90]

When talking about the GOAT we are talking about footballing ability etc not just trophies.

It's pretty easy to win trophies in the comfort of that Barca team for years surrounded by Superstars.

Maradona won the WC practically dragging his nation too it.

He's proved himself in the best league in the world with a middle of the road team winning the championship. Those are the cold hard facts. Messi couldn't lace his boots.

Coming away with pish statements like that totally discredits your argument.

 

[gersandproud]

I've always found player comparisons difficult at the best of times & I've never been fond of anyone blowing their own trumpet
But I've got to side with Pele here

Much as you have to admire Messi - Pele was an all round player capable of playing any out field position -

I know it was late in his career & I'm sure the opposition would be poor - but when he was at NY Cosmos - he even played in central defence for a few games
I can't see Messi ever playing in defence at any time

Pele probably did take on this supernatural, magical figure mantel in everyone's (myself included) jaded memory - & maybe there was better in Brazil or Argentina before & after Pele's time - but he still had more in his repertoire than Messi has ever had IMO

 

[giogaddi]

'It's pretty to easy to win trophies with Barca'.

This is a very, very silly argument. He broke into their side as a teenager and pushed aside some of the best players in the world in doing so. Does anyone really think it is easy to break into a team like Barcelona?

Pele played in what is widely regarded as the best international team ever, I've yet to see anyone say they should have won the world cup 'easily'.

 

[-ZED-]

For older generations Pele was and still is the greatest, my generation (including me) think it’s Maradona, and most younger folk think it’s Messi.

They were/are all geniuses on the park.

 

[Jacrispy]

Embarrassing myself?

Come back when you can spell.

Spell what exactly? Ageist?

For an old duffer you love playground insults

 

[Ryzogrumpybear]

Modern players would struggle to control a ball from the 1960's/70s most have never suffered the pain of a mitre mold master skelping your leg in the middle of winter.

 

[WestrayGer]

For older generations Pele was and still is the greatest, my generation (including me) think it’s Maradona, and most younger folk think it’s Messi.

They were/are all geniuses on the park.

And they'd all adapt to be geniuses in each era.

 

[a_weir]

That video is laughable tbf.

That’s a World Cup semi final. Pelé played in the final. Football was a joke then. Standard was horrific.

 

[a_weir]

Looks like a junior match.

World Cup semi final mate. Truly laughable.

 

[Drumchapel-Bear]

That’s a World Cup semi final. Pelé played in the final. Football was a joke then. Standard was horrific.

It was almost like a different sport back then when you factor in all the variables. When discussing a GOAT in any Sport, you need to factor this in. Athletes are bigger, faster and stronger nowadays due to advances in science that their peers from decades and generations previously didn't have, but it doesn't mean all the GOAT's are active now.

Unless folk are trying to say that people these days are born with more natural talent than people were in generations gone past?

It's difficult to say anyone is the GOAT. The best of a generation is a far more reasoned argument to have.

That video you uploaded, everyone of those players would be faster and stronger if you had a time machine and put them into modern football with all the advances in training, diet and science.

When you watch old Scotland games, the standard looks sh*te as well but you don't hear people arguing that Callum McGregor is a better player than Archie Gemmell do you?

 

[a_weir]

It was almost like a different sport back then when you factor in all the variables. When discussing a GOAT in any Sport, you need to factor this in. Athletes are bigger, faster and stronger nowadays due to advances in science than their peers from decades and generations previously, but it doesn't mean all the GOAT's are active now.

Unless folk are trying to say that people these days are born with more natural talent than people were in generations gone past?

It's difficult to say anyone is the GOAT. The best of a generation is a far more reasoned argument to have.

That video you uploaded, everyone of those players would be faster and stronger if you had a time machine and put them into modern football with all the advances in training, diet and science.

When you watch old Scotland games, the standard looks sh*te as well but you don't hear people arguing that Callum McGregor was a better player than Archie Gemmell do you?

We’re not discussing the greatest mate. We’re discussing the best. Two very distinct things.

Who is better at football, Messi or Pelé? Answers simple.

 

[Drumchapel-Bear]

We’re not discussing the greatest mate. We’re discussing the best. Two very distinct things.

Who is better at football, Messi or Pelé? Answers simple.

It's not that simple though. Because you're comparing apples and oranges as I have explained in my post.

Is Joe Cole better than Johan Cruyff? He looks better in Youtube clips so he must be going by your logic.

 

[a_weir]

It's not that simple though. Because you're comparing apples and oranges as I have explained in my post.

Is Joe Cole better than Johan Cruyff? He looks better in Youtube clips so he must be going by your logic.

Just discussing what Pelé said, really.

 

[thechosenone]

I hate all these whos the best footballer ever debates.

When asked I seriously say Manuel Francisco dos Santos "the little bird" Garrincha

Not only am I being 100% sincere but he was technically disabled.

He defo would have got a orange badge for his motor defo.

Seriously read up on the guy and watch the few clips on him on youtube the things he could do with what you would call a medicine ball compared to these floaters now a day was unbelievable.

He did lose his virginity to a goat though so probably would have been happy with last nights result.

I was given his autobiography as a gift, will need to get reading it.

 

[Laudo.]

One too many Viagra.

Pele was wonderful however.

 

[Rudiger]

Some amount of madness in this thread.

Pelé was utterly streets ahead of everyone at the time. Notably, at the time.

In terms of footballing talent, I’d suggest Morelos is close to what Pelé was. Like, if you got a time machine and sent Morelos back or Pelé forward, there wouldn’t be a huge gulf in it.

Thus, Messi is the most technically gifted and best footballer to ever walk this earth. Undeniable.

I’d walk in to an international team from 1958 ffs. Just do a Cruyff turn and blow everyone’s minds.

The problem is is half of people just greatness on achievements and half of them judge it on ability.

I'm sure guys like Eric Caldow and Dave MacKay would have been in awe of you. Obviously neither would get close to you in training, with you being far fitter with the benefits of modern sports science

 

[bilkobear]

Some of the posts dismissing the level of football back in the day as poor is possibly the most revealing aspect on here about how shallow many posters understanding of the game is.
Perhaps it is an age thing.

As for those who think that if they were transported back to the fifties that they would instantly shine, it is obvious they don't have a clue about the pitches, the balls, the levels of footwear etc etc.
When participants come to a discussion like this so ill-equipped of the most basic elements then it is a worthless debate.

 

[Alex Venters]

They’ll tell us we’re taking shite and we can’t comment because we don’t have a grey pube, yet folks like Lineker and Souness who not only saw Maradona but performed on the same pitch as him, will tell you Messi is better

And that’s the same Gary Lineker that was on the pitch when Maradona scored his most famous goal (the one where yellow carded England players are scared to put a tackle in so Shilton ends up being just about the first one to make a serious attempt at getting the ball). Somewhat ironic given that was supposed to be the era of ruthless hard tackling

Recency bias at play.

Souness thought Dalglish was better than Maradona ffs!

A little respect for those who saw Pele and Maradona as well as Messi wouldn't go amiss either.

Fwiw I believe Messi to be the third best behind Maradona then Pele.

The other "golden boy" CR7 wouldn't be in my top ten of greatest players.

 

[Alex Venters]

Players go down now easier because they gain an advantage from it due to a change in refereeing and rules. Give modern players rules from 40 years ago and they wouldn't go down as easily. It's called adapting.

That of course works both ways.

 

[instructor]

Messi is one player I would put up along with Maradonna and Pele in the greatest ever player debate. Disappointing remarks from Pele.

 

[govwalker]

Spell what exactly? Ageist?

For an old duffer you love playground insults

Werther's ya fcking rocket.

 

[Jacrispy]

 

[dh1963]

It's impossible to compare players across generations as the game is very different in terms of tactics, defensive awareness and fitness
The games Messi plays in are far more intense than those of the 59s and 60s
However those dismissing Pele as bitter, senile and floppy cock embarass themselves
I only really caught the tail end of his career with the 70 World Cup being the first time I saw him play on the telly. I was quite young and there really wasn't much football and certainly not much foreign football seen by a wee boy in a council scheme in darkest Ayrshire in those days
It was, and remains, the greatest festival of football I have ever seen and Pele was at the pinnacle of it.
The colour of the strips, the colour of the players (there were very few black players in the UK game at the time - let alone all the shades in between - and that was just Brazil), even the fact that this was coming live from Mexico (on a fairly dodgy signal which only added to the glamou) made this a serious life highlight
I would imagine it is difficult for anyone under 50 to even begin to understand the impact this could have
Pele changed perceptions. He rose above the game. He made everyone I knew support Brazil. He did things you never saw in the British game - he bent the ball, he lobbed the keeper from halfway, he dummies the keeper in the most outrageous fashion - he made all of us realise the game could be beautiful. Not alone of course but he was the biggest part of it.
He did it all whilst being fouled in a fashion unimaginable to the likes of Ronaldo. Apart from a very few notable incidents he did not retaliate.
He made me love football
For that reason he'll always be the best to me.
I am not senile or floppy cocked enough to realise that this is in large part due to the time I happened to be born
I would be hugely surprised if a football game or tournament ever made me feel that way again. I usually don't even bother watching very much of the World Cup these days

What a fantastic post.

 

[dh1963]

It's all irrelevant anyway, as none of them could lace Alan Morton's boots.

 

[a_weir]

Pissed myself at this hahaha

 

[Gary]

Top trolling from Pele.

 

[BSPECIAL]

I don't think anyone who seen Pele play would argue with that.
Pele simply the best

 

[robandmundt]

Messi is the greatest. No question about it. Misty eyed sentimentality clouds the judgement of those who are desperate to cling to the idea that their era is the defining era, their player the defining player. There is no defining era. Even twenty years ago too footballers would still be regularly out on the piss eating shite. Go back a further ten years and it's turning up to training still pissed. Further back, and it's 40 fags a day and six Stella for supper. The idea that 'these wee primadonnas' from today wouldn't last two minutes back in the day is pathetically hilarious, as even mid and low level players are fitter, stronger, faster and smarter than those that came before. They wouldn't be folding under a 'proper challenge', cause defenders wouldn't get anywhere near them.

Put Messi in a team from the 70s & 80s and he'd score 100 a season every season and there'd be multiple world cups to his name.

 

[robandmundt]

He wouldn’t have survived in those days, pele was the best

Love this argument.

Not a single defender would've got anywhere near Messi FFS. They barely can today, he'd have scored ten every game in the 50s and 60s.

Honestly it's hilarious how people can argue that it's disrespectful to the older generation and older players. It's just simple fact, it is much, much, much harder to be a successful footballer these days, and to not only be a success but to be better than everyone else on the planet for a decade or more like Messi has done, clearly shows he has talent and skill the likes of which this world has never seen

 

[Sam English]

I seen a stat online regarding Pele (for the folk saying he only scored so many goals in Brazil because the football was dire etc).

Santos toured Europe to play all the European teams

Games played: 131
Goals scored: 146

Not too shabby at all.

Very impressive record.

 

[whitbybear45]

I saw Pele in his pomp as I have also seen Messi, Cruyff,Maradona and Baxter.

Pele was head and shoulders above them all and this was in a time when other players were allowed to kick lumps out of everyone. I remember Bremner at Hampden kicking Pele off the pitch and the same thing happened at Wembley. Messi is a wee boy compared to Pele.

 

[Wacaktb]

Old fanny, mess is the goat!!