Pele claims he was a better player than ‘one skill’ Lionel Messi

Put Messi in a team from the 70s & 80s and he'd score 100 a season every season and there'd be multiple world cups to his name.
How about the 1989 AC Milan European Cup winning team. They lined up with:
Galli
Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini
Colombo, Rijkaard, Ancelotti, Donadoni
Gullit, Van Basten

Messi would have to fight for his place in that team. He undoubtedly could score a lot of goals in it, but a 100 per season, every season, that's just ridiculous.
As for world cups, he might well win some. Argentina have Maradona too in the 80's. Messi & Maradona would be formidable. Maradona would still be better than Messi however. Messi would agree!
 
How about the 1989 AC Milan European Cup winning team. They lined up with:
Galli
Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini
Colombo, Rijkaard, Ancelotti, Donadoni
Gullit, Van Basten

Messi would have to fight for his place in that team. He undoubtedly could score a lot of goals in it, but a 100 per season, every season, that's just ridiculous.
As for world cups, he might well win some. Argentina have Maradona too in the 80's. Messi & Maradona would be formidable. Maradona would still be better than Messi however. Messi would agree!

I've read it but I simply cannot comprehend.

I'm simply out of this debate. Messi couldn't or wouldn't get into the Milan team of 89? You have got to be joking. Messi pisses over the lot.

It's like you saying the Searchers were better than the Beatles.
 
I've read it but I simply cannot comprehend.

I'm simply out of this debate. Messi couldn't or wouldn't get into the Milan team of 89? You have got to be joking. Messi pisses over the lot.

It's like you saying the Searchers were better than the Beatles.

The Searchers.

Wasn't that John Wayne :)
 
Jairzinho Gerson Tostao Pele Rivelino

If there has ever been a better forward line I wish I had seen it.
Don’t know what age you are but I have never seen a striker like Ronaldo, the burst of pace and explosive finishing, arguably had more injury problems than Maradonna to, defo for me the best Brazil player
 
I hate all these whos the best footballer ever debates.

When asked I seriously say Manuel Francisco dos Santos "the little bird" Garrincha

Not only am I being 100% sincere but he was technically disabled.

He defo would have got a orange badge for his motor defo.

Seriously read up on the guy and watch the few clips on him on youtube the things he could do with what you would call a medicine ball compared to these floaters now a day was unbelievable.

He did lose his virginity to a goat though so probably would have been happy with last nights result.
Too much performance enhancing cachaça for me. 3 bottles a day I believe. What a man
 
It is all subjective and there will never be a definite answer to the question due to the way football is played then and now,any stats used to prove the point can be easily shot down depending what side of the fence you sit and spinning them the way it suits.

Ps Maradona is the best ever and i am 100% right every day of the week :) :) :)
 
Messi is the greatest. No question about it. Misty eyed sentimentality clouds the judgement of those who are desperate to cling to the idea that their era is the defining era, their player the defining player. There is no defining era. Even twenty years ago too footballers would still be regularly out on the piss eating shite. Go back a further ten years and it's turning up to training still pissed. Further back, and it's 40 fags a day and six Stella for supper. The idea that 'these wee primadonnas' from today wouldn't last two minutes back in the day is pathetically hilarious, as even mid and low level players are fitter, stronger, faster and smarter than those that came before. They wouldn't be folding under a 'proper challenge', cause defenders wouldn't get anywhere near them.

Put Messi in a team from the 70s & 80s and he'd score 100 a season every season and there'd be multiple world cups to his name.
Love this argument.

Not a single defender would've got anywhere near Messi FFS. They barely can today, he'd have scored ten every game in the 50s and 60s. :D

Honestly it's hilarious how people can argue that it's disrespectful to the older generation and older players. It's just simple fact, it is much, much, much harder to be a successful footballer these days, and to not only be a success but to be better than everyone else on the planet for a decade or more like Messi has done, clearly shows he has talent and skill the likes of which this world has never seen

I live in Essex & have the privilege of living a couple of doors away from a very sprightly and knowledgeable 96 year old football fan -
I thought he celebrated his 86th birthday in summer - till another neighbour put me right-
He attended Arsenal matches well into his 70's but only goes to see Southend Utd. & Colchester occasionally now.

We watched the 2nd half of the WBA v AV match on the box together - but afterwards we discussed your points over a couple of rums - So I owe you some gratitude for your above posts - because I really enjoyed our discussions

He told me that his father said the best team he ever saw was the Wembley Wizards and that the best player he ever saw was Alan Morton

He said the greatest player he ever saw was Alex James - but he conceded that being impressed as a 10 year old may be partly due to childhood hero worship - But that said - he can't think of better
Maybe not bad for a couple of Englishmen to choose Scots as their heroes (his words)

He also mentioned Matthews, Finney, Blanchflower, Charlton, Di Stefano, Puskas, & Moore
He said that if Rattin hadn't been sent off - England probably wouldn't have gone on to win in 1966

The best team he saw was the Brazil world Cup winning team of 1970.

Just as you would expect he rates modern football - and agrees the overall level of fitness modern teams have is superior to older eras -
But he believes the greats of the past were individually every bit, if not more fit, than players of now

He said that Messi's close control and dribbling ability is wonderful and your point that he has been at the top for over 10 years is very valid -

But he also reckons that you too will be clinging to the idea that Messi defines the era and even if someone 10 times better comes along in years to come you'll still hold onto the idea that he was the one & only true great
 
Its an interesting but ultimately futile argument speculating on how teams or players might got on against those of any generation
For what its worth my view would be it would depend on whether younwent back or forward in time
Take a team from the 60s and put them on a modern pitch against a modern team playing current rules and they would be hammered. No question about it
However do it in reverse and I reckon your modern metrosexual footballer would be off the pitch crying to his mother in less than 5 mins. Even the modern so called hardmen would be relative pansies in a 1960's game
Scott Brown v Dave Mckay or Harold Davies
Can't stop smiling at the thought of it
 
Messi is the greatest. No question about it. Misty eyed sentimentality clouds the judgement of those who are desperate to cling to the idea that their era is the defining era, their player the defining player. There is no defining era. Even twenty years ago too footballers would still be regularly out on the piss eating shite. Go back a further ten years and it's turning up to training still pissed. Further back, and it's 40 fags a day and six Stella for supper. The idea that 'these wee primadonnas' from today wouldn't last two minutes back in the day is pathetically hilarious, as even mid and low level players are fitter, stronger, faster and smarter than those that came before. They wouldn't be folding under a 'proper challenge', cause defenders wouldn't get anywhere near them.

Put Messi in a team from the 70s & 80s and he'd score 100 a season every season and there'd be multiple world cups to his name.

You about 14 years old??
 
I think the perspective of time may see Messi at the top of the GOAT tree, but right now he’s still behind Maradona for me, and in all honesty, probably Pele too.

His inability to light up a World Cup in the manner either of those two did (you could add Cruyff into the mix on that front also) will always count against him, IMO.

To say he’s done it more consistently at club level doesn’t fully take into account the way club football has changed in the last twenty odd years.

The CL has engendered the rise of the super club, of which Barcelona are the very epitome - and in doing so has reduced competition to their preserve.

It’s been said before, but if the CL setup was around in the ‘80s we’d have seen a lot more of Maradona in Europe’s premier club event, but he was restricted by the old format and a league that was more competitive than La Liga is now.

Similarly Pele.

These greatest of all time arguments therefore always tend to favour more modern players due to the available TV footage of them in action: Pele - very little; Maradona - a good bit more; Messi - 24 hour saturation point.

And the latter is fresher in the memory, but I still think when he finally hangs up his boots, he’s going to have a lot of sleepless nights replaying that moment in the 2014 final when he had the chance to win it but stuck it just wide of the post.

Had it gone two or three inches the other way, I think the argument would be academic.

I disagree.

I actually think guys like Maradona and Pele are held in such high regard because people hardly ever seen them play. Whenever they did see them play it was always a really big/important game or a highlights package that they dominated. Messi (and even Ronaldo) have had pretty much every game they’ve ever played beemed around the world and they have been dominant in almost every single one of them.

The World Cup shouldn’t be used to judge modern day players IMO as club football dominates international football a lot more than it did in the past.

Messi, for me, is the greatest ever and I don’t even think it’s close.
 
I think it’s well nai impossible to compare players from the past to players now,mainly because of how the game has changed and refereed and indeed the speed the modern game is played at
 
How about the 1989 AC Milan European Cup winning team. They lined up with:
Galli
Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini
Colombo, Rijkaard, Ancelotti, Donadoni
Gullit, Van Basten

Messi would have to fight for his place in that team. He undoubtedly could score a lot of goals in it, but a 100 per season, every season, that's just ridiculous.
As for world cups, he might well win some. Argentina have Maradona too in the 80's. Messi & Maradona would be formidable. Maradona would still be better than Messi however. Messi would agree!

Now that really is the greatest club team line up. I concur that Messi would struggle to get into that team especially as football was still a man's game back then. A time when a well timed two footed tackle from behind wasn't considered to even be a yellow card.

For me Messi would have been injured most of his career if he played before the rule changes. He would have been singled out in every game for some very tasty tackles.

Maradona is the greatest of all time and let's be honest Cannigia would have kept Messi out of the Argentina team at that time.
 
Now that really is the greatest club team line up. I concur that Messi would struggle to get into that team especially as football was still a man's game back then. A time when a well timed two footed tackle from behind wasn't considered to even be a yellow card.

For me Messi would have been injured most of his career if he played before the rule changes. He would have been singled out in every game for some very tasty tackles.

Maradona is the greatest of all time and let's be honest Cannigia would have kept Messi out of the Argentina team at that time.

tenor.gif
 
All the posters slagging off football from years ago are undermining the talents of some real Rangers greats like Baxter,Henderson etc.
If football was that bad years ago why do we still praise the Barca Bears?
That was the way football was in those days and it's a totally different game now.
You can't compare Pele with Messi as the game has changed so much.
People of my age will probably say Maradona was the greatest of all time as that's who we saw growing up and he stuck in our minds.
Messi is definitely one of the all time greats but for me he is behind Maradona who proved his talent in different leagues and by winning a World Cup.
After 6 pages though I'm surprised no one has mentioned Platini as one of the all time greats as he more than proved his talent both domestically and on the international scene.
 
How about the 1989 AC Milan European Cup winning team. They lined up with:
Galli
Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini
Colombo, Rijkaard, Ancelotti, Donadoni
Gullit, Van Basten

Messi would have to fight for his place in that team. He undoubtedly could score a lot of goals in it, but a 100 per season, every season, that's just ridiculous.
As for world cups, he might well win some. Argentina have Maradona too in the 80's. Messi & Maradona would be formidable. Maradona would still be better than Messi however. Messi would agree!

You cannot be serious!

There is no team in the history of the game that Messi would not improve.

That said,it was a truly great team in a time when Italian football had all of the best players in their league.

Who's the greatest?

Diego Armando Maradona.
 
It's impossible to compare players across generations as the game is very different in terms of tactics, defensive awareness and fitness
The games Messi plays in are far more intense than those of the 59s and 60s
However those dismissing Pele as bitter, senile and floppy cock embarass themselves
I only really caught the tail end of his career with the 70 World Cup being the first time I saw him play on the telly. I was quite young and there really wasn't much football and certainly not much foreign football seen by a wee boy in a council scheme in darkest Ayrshire in those days
It was, and remains, the greatest festival of football I have ever seen and Pele was at the pinnacle of it.
The colour of the strips, the colour of the players (there were very few black players in the UK game at the time - let alone all the shades in between - and that was just Brazil), even the fact that this was coming live from Mexico (on a fairly dodgy signal which only added to the glamou) made this a serious life highlight
I would imagine it is difficult for anyone under 50 to even begin to understand the impact this could have
Pele changed perceptions. He rose above the game. He made everyone I knew support Brazil. He did things you never saw in the British game - he bent the ball, he lobbed the keeper from halfway, he dummies the keeper in the most outrageous fashion - he made all of us realise the game could be beautiful. Not alone of course but he was the biggest part of it.
He did it all whilst being fouled in a fashion unimaginable to the likes of Ronaldo. Apart from a very few notable incidents he did not retaliate.
He made me love football
For that reason he'll always be the best to me.
I am not senile or floppy cocked enough to realise that this is in large part due to the time I happened to be born
I would be hugely surprised if a football game or tournament ever made me feel that way again. I usually don't even bother watching very much of the World Cup these days
Great post.
I was also mesmerised by that same world cup and that same Pele and that same Brazil.
It was indeed the pinnacle of excellence for me in so many ways.
Indeed I have watched every world cup since hoping to see this total perfection recaptured.

1970 in Mexico set the standard and Pele indeed stole the show.
 

Messi would have went down after the first tackle. I rest my case.

A completely hypothetical and unjustified prediction, followed by “I rest my case”. No offence but your case is shite and has collapsed like a house of cards!

What makes you think a stronger, stockier, athlete like Messi wouldn’t be able to take as much punishment as someone like Caniggia?
 
You cannot be serious!

There is no team in the history of the game that Messi would not improve.

That said,it was a truly great team in a time when Italian football had all of the best players in their league.

Who's the greatest?

Diego Armando Maradona.
I am serious! Why wouldn't Messi have to fight for his place in that Milan side? He'd also have to fit into Sacchi's highly organised 4-4-2 system. Not suggesting for a minute that he couldn't, but maybe it wouldn't suit him as much as Barcelona's short passing tactics.
Messi is without doubt one of the best footballers there has ever been. But Pele reckons he was better than him. He may well be, but strong arguments can be made for both players. It's what makes these threads both interesting and provocative.
 
A completely hypothetical and unjustified prediction, followed by “I rest my case”. No offence but your case is shite and has collapsed like a house of cards!

What makes you think a stronger, stockier, athlete like Messi wouldn’t be able to take as much punishment as someone like Caniggia?

lol house of cards, awrite Dave. You could at least be original.

Messi is a great player and there is no doubt about it. He has faced some hard dirty tackles in his time but he is protected by referees and like most modern footballers is happy to take the freekick rather than stay on his feet.

My personal opinion is I have seen better.

Would he be held in such high esteem if he didn't play for Barcelona? His only real competition for being considered the best of his generation is Ronaldo.

Just my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are entitled to yours.
 
A completely hypothetical and unjustified prediction, followed by “I rest my case”. No offence but your case is shite and has collapsed like a house of cards!

What makes you think a stronger, stockier, athlete like Messi wouldn’t be able to take as much punishment as someone like Caniggia?

Listen you're comparisons are utterly stupid and ignorant.

Training back then is absolutely nothing like it is today. Obviously players are going to be physically fitter and stronger.

It's called technology, sports science and evolution ffs.

It's got fck all to do with size etc.

End of the day Messi as good as he is, isn't in the same league as Maradona and Pele.
 
lol house of cards, awrite Dave. You could at least be original.

Messi is a great player and there is no doubt about it. He has faced some hard dirty tackles in his time but he is protected by referees and like most modern footballers is happy to take the freekick rather than stay on his feet.

My personal opinion is I have seen better.

Would he be held in such high esteem if he didn't play for Barcelona? His only real competition for being considered the best of his generation is Ronaldo.

Just my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are entitled to yours.

You haven’t answered my question.

What makes you think the stronger, stockier Messi couldn’t take the same punishment as a comparatively scrawny and more slight Caniggia?
 
Listen you're comparisons are utterly stupid and ignorant.

Training back then is absolutely nothing like it is today. Obviously players are going to be physically fitter and stronger.

It's called technology, sports science and evolution ffs.

It's got fck all to do with size etc.

End of the day Messi as good as he is, isn't in the same league as Maradona and Pele.

Mate I could write what’s you know about football on the back of a fucking stamp with a bingo pen. You keep chiming in but without any substance or real credible arguments. And you already admitted you’re not old enough to
have seen Pele so pipe down.

“Ignorant”, I think you’ve summed yourself up there, running around like a daft wee boy giving it “the older ones wur better just cause they wur men and the baws n boots wur heavier”. At least I can reason out what I’m saying, and I have done, and still you’ve come up with no credible comeback and nothing other than “you’re an idiot, you’re ignorant, Maradona and Pele were better because hard tackles n’at”
 
Stats will say Messi or Ronaldo.. The older generations might say Pele. I've seen Maradona play but in my opinion Zidane.made football look easy, really easy
 
Mate I could write what’s you know about football on the back of a fucking stamp with a bingo pen. You keep chiming in but without any substance or real credible arguments. And you already admitted you’re not old enough to
have seen Pele so pipe down.

“Ignorant”, I think you’ve summed yourself up there, running around like a daft wee boy giving it “the older ones wur better just cause they wur men and the baws n boots wur heavier”. At least I can reason out what I’m saying, and I have done, and still you’ve come up with no credible comeback and nothing other than “you’re an idiot, you’re ignorant, Maradona and Pele were better because hard tackles n’at”

Haha seriously you should take up comedy.

What I know about football? How far did you make it?

Did you ever play a serious level or you just counting FIFA on the x box as knowing something ffs.
 
But surely given the improvements in sports science Tyson Fury would lick Ali every day of the week?

I'd actually say boxing is probably the only / one of the only sports where modern athletes wouldn't beat older ones. For example, back in the day boxers would fight 15 rounds. They'd fight a couple of times a month in some cases (instead of twice a year now) and they were literally fighting for their lives (if you go back far enough).

Ronaldo has upped sticks and established himself at 3 of the Europe’s biggest, most demanding clubs and has some international achievement to speak of.

In all fairness, I could play for Juve and they'd still scoosh the league...they've won 7 in a row so it's hardly a big challenge.


Messi would have went down after the first tackle. I rest my case.

This suggest that you've never actually watched Messi playing. He rarely goes down at tackles and is one of the most honest players about in terms of staying on his feet and playing on.
 
Folk on here saying “Messi couldn’t lace Pele or Diego’s boots”...I mean seriously? Have you been watching Messi the past 14 years?

To not think he is the greatest is fair enough, but to suggest he is no where near it is ridiculous.

Almost to a man the major figures in world football have openly said that Messi is the best. That’ll do for me :D
Messi is phenomenal and could play in any era. Same as the other greats including Pele, Puskas, Yashin, Beckenbauer, Best, Garrincha, Maradona & Cruyff to name a few. Growing up the name of Pele was mesmerizing especially with the sheer amount of goals he scored. Powerfully built, no shrinking violet and tougher than many think . An argument that will always end in stalemate.
 
In all fairness, I could play for Juve and they'd still scoosh the league...they've won 7 in a row so it's hardly a big challenge.

He didn’t score in his first 2 games and the knives were out for him though. He has gone into highly pressurised clubs and had to prove himself all over again at Madrid and Juventus after having to be taken seriously as an 18yr old by the likes of Scholes, Keane, Neville, Giggs & Ferdinand.

He isn’t afraid of a challenge... by staying at a club where it is all set up around him, Messi looks less adventurous.
 
This Messi wankfest needs to end now!

Has Pele ever posed with a Celtic strip in his pomp?

3131213.jpg


Pele might be as bland as pot noodle Re controversy but that's what being a FIFA Ambassador is all about unlike that lady's front bottom Maradona but has he ever been involved with an organsation who refuses to recognize a foreign countries name and who's country invaded it by a fascistic regime?

article-2657667-1E92F21A00000578-517_634x379.jpg


Has Pele ever got the petted lip and cried "anti-football" at Rangers just cause he or his team mates couldnt score a goal against Rangers?

nintchdbpict000003727677.jpg



Naw didnt think so!

So %^*& Messi and %^*& Maradona

anti+barcelona+messi.jpg


And their disrespectful Jesuit bishop of Rome!

CMylkVzWIAEEmlT.jpg

Better not say exactly what I think of the bishop of rome and this rubbish.

When were the Falklands ever Argentinian I wonder.
 
Anyone see his 2 free kick goals and his ridiculous assist for Demeble tonight?

He’s been a sensation as usual tonight.

Those 2 free kicks were absolute worldies to my view (I know not everyone agrees) but he’s the greatest of all time.
 
He didn’t score in his first 2 games and the knives were out for him though. He has gone into highly pressurised clubs and had to prove himself all over again at Madrid and Juventus after having to be taken seriously as an 18yr old by the likes of Scholes, Keane, Neville, Giggs & Ferdinand.

He isn’t afraid of a challenge... by staying at a club where it is all set up around him, Messi looks less adventurous.

Going to Juve, a club who romp the league every year with ease? Yeah that’s not really what I would call adventurous. He went from Man Utd to Real Madrid and Madrid to Juve, he wasn’t going to mediocre clubs.
 
He’s been a sensation as usual tonight.

Those 2 free kicks were absolute worldies to my view (I know not everyone agrees) but he’s the greatest of all time.

Apparently he’s now scored more free kicks than any CLUB (not player) in the top 5 leagues in the last 4 years (he now has 19, Juventus are closest with 18)...
 
Going to Juve, a club who romp the league every year with ease? Yeah that’s not really what I would call adventurous. He went from Man Utd to Real Madrid and Madrid to Juve, he wasn’t going to mediocre clubs.

Wasting your time mate.
 
He didn’t score in his first 2 games and the knives were out for him though. He has gone into highly pressurised clubs and had to prove himself all over again at Madrid and Juventus after having to be taken seriously as an 18yr old by the likes of Scholes, Keane, Neville, Giggs & Ferdinand.

He isn’t afraid of a challenge... by staying at a club where it is all set up around him, Messi looks less adventurous.

Do you realise how absurd and contradicting that post is?

Ronaldo had the luxury of learning his trade at Sporting Lisbon before joining Man Utd.

Messi made his debut for Barcelona and proceeded to knock guys like Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o etc out of the way. I'd say Barca and Real Madrid are the two biggest clubs in the world in terms of pressure to win so Messi's been doing it there since he was a teenager. Not to mention the fact he moved half way across the world at 12/13 to do so.

To suggest that playing at that level for your entire career is a comfort zone is just nonsense.
 
He didn’t score in his first 2 games and the knives were out for him though. He has gone into highly pressurised clubs and had to prove himself all over again at Madrid and Juventus after having to be taken seriously as an 18yr old by the likes of Scholes, Keane, Neville, Giggs & Ferdinand.

He isn’t afraid of a challenge... by staying at a club where it is all set up around him, Messi looks less adventurous.

There's no doubt hes a fantastic player, but he's a Juve because Perez pissed him off, he's said so himself, nothing to do with a new challenge. Although again he's doing fantastic as he should.
 
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