Playing yourself into form

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Do we think that Gerrard sees game time and hard work as the way to gain form rather than time on the bench? Tav and Arfield are probably the two most noticeable, but Ojo, Kamara and Goldson could also be considered players who are plainly not firing on all cylinders just now and all of them are starting every game. I do not think that with his experience as a player he cannot see that form is lacking, he must see it, so there has to be a reason for him picking these players rather than benching them. Other than Ojo (due to injuries) we have deputies for them all (granted Polster for Tav is not quite as clear cut) who could do a good job.

I think the 'favourites' argument is perhaps a little facile and that he maybe believes that players regain previous form by playing their way back to a level and that it is a much longer road back from the bench?

 

[Vamos_buffalo]

The whole favourites term is just a myth within our support I reckon.

I’m not so sure he thinks playing your way back to form either as look at Katic last season.

It’s a strange one and only The management team know exactly why they keep playing these guys.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I'd imagine he probably just thinks that chopping and changing the spine of the team just for the sake of it may do more harm than good. What if people got their wish and the likes of Tavernier, Goldson and Arfield were dropped for weeks for Poster, Edmundson and Stewart and we dropped a load of points and fell well behind in the title race? The same people calling for the changes would slate the manager is what would happen.

 

[RFC4ME]

I genuinely don't know what people mean when they say "favorites". it like a few other stock sayings on here is the whitest of noise and falls to shit whenever someone is asked to fully explain it or even bothers to look at selection, data, contracts, who signed players.

 

[Daleboy91Watp]

The whole favourites term is just a myth within our support I reckon.

I’m not so sure he thinks playing your way back to form either as look at Katic last season.

It’s a strange one and only The management team know exactly why they keep playing these guys.

This there is no regiment or order people get dropped people don't they do the same things it's an absolute mad one. Arfield confuses me he has been looking tired from pre season still and has players able to drop in for him but they don't. I thonk maybe he just trys to field his strongest team possible on the day? Which in itself may not be the right choice as I'd take arfield over Stewart but I'm thinking Stewart needs to come in for arfield. I'm makigg sense in my own head so that's where I'll leave it.

 

[Yankeeger]

Has Polster done anything wrong when played to warrant the refusal to play him

 

[Monty_greenock34]

We have pretty decent defence stats this season both in domestic and europe. Silly mistake has cost us as opposed to defence not being great, defence has been a strong point this season upto now imo.

The tough games we are still failing to create a great deal, im more concerned on that front than i am with tav and defence.

 

[Its-Sebo]

I think there a few things at play.

One element is that these are some of our senior players who’ll help keep the shape, intensity and tactics of the game up to what the coaching staff want even if they individually aren’t up to full-speed. There’s a reason we’ve stuck to the game plan and not panicked in certain games and that’s down to the experience of guys like Tav/Arfield/Davis.

Another fact is that as a support we aren’t entirely privy to what the players’ individual instructions are. I think it’s been obvious from Gerrard before that he’s looking at more than the surface level stuff that we focus on. It’s possible that someone like Arfield is doing a lot of what the gaffer wants even when he's not at his best and scoring goals and so on. An extremely basic example would be that he’s good at dragging players out of position off the ball, so he’s contributing to our build-up without it being obvious to the eye.

Then there’s the fact that this is a results business and although some of these players haven’t been on top form, as a team we’ve been doing very well. If we were to take out guys like Tav/Arfield and the results dipped, we would 100% be asking ‘why fix something that isn’t broken’?.

Ojo is the exception and the only reason he hasn’t seen the bench is because of injuries.

Obviously this is all speculative and could be total bullshït, but the coaching staff aren’t going to be blindly picking players for no reason, even if the reasons aren’t immediately obvious to us.

 

[Potnbear]

If players were to continue playing "into form" how long would it take and would irrepairable damage be done by the time they find that form again. That's a gamble the management would have to take

 

[lalsger]

When we signed Stewart i thought he would be good cover for Arfield, the last couple of performances from Stewart were i thought he was superb, combined with Arfield obvious dip in form from last season, which i would put down to fatigue, makes it a no brainer for me to start to play Stewart more regularly until Arfield is fully rested. On Sunday we had Stewart fully rested after no midweek game whereas Arfield had played in Toronto midweek, if we are rotating the squad which is what we have to do to get the best out of the squad for the full season then that was an ideal opportunity.

 

[tazzabear]

Is Borna Barisic not a living example of this?

 

[prenzlauerbear]

I think there a few things at play.

One element is that these are some of our senior players who’ll help keep the shape, intensity and tactics of the game up to what the the coaching staff want even if they individually aren’t up to full-speed. There’s a reason we’ve stuck to the game plan and not panicked in certain games and that’s down to the experience of guys like Tav/Arfield/Davis.

Another fact is that as a support we aren’t entirely privy to what the players’ individual instructions are. I think it’s been obvious from Gerrard before that he’s looking at more than surface level stuff that we focus on. It’s possible that someone like Arfield is doing a lot of what the gaffer wants even though he’s not at his best and scoring goals etc. An extremely basic example would be that he’s effectively dragging players out of position off the ball – so he’s contributing to our build up without it being obvious on the eye.

Then there’s the fact that this is a results business and although some of these players haven’t been on top form, as a team we’ve been doing very well. If we were to take out guys like Tav/Arfield and the results dipped, we would 100% be asking ‘why fix something that isn’t broken’?.

Ojo is the exception and I the only reason he hasn’t seen the bench is because of injuries.

Obviously this is all speculative and could be total bullshït, but the coaching staff aren’t going to be blindly picking players for no reason, even if the reasons aren’t immediately obvious to us.

Great post.

 

[lalsger]

Is Borna Barisic not a living example of this?

I'm not sure that's the case with Barisic, i don't think he was upto the physical demands off Scottish football initially, he says himself he had to get a lot stronger, once he did combined with his much superior ability and the confidence he got from the goal v St Mirren, he know looks a fantastic player which is what we were expecting.

 

[tazzabear]

Has Polster done anything wrong when played to warrant the refusal to play him

Maybe he's proven he doesn't offer the same qualities?

 

[Papasmurf]

Here’s a wee message for our world class media. How about asking a question to gain real insight?

‘Steven, what are your views on players out of form? Should they be given a rest or is it better served for players to find their form on the pitch as part of the first 11?’

 

[tazzabear]

I'm not sure that's the case with Barisic, i don't think he was upto the physical demands off Scottish football initially, he says himself he had to get a lot stronger, once he did combined with his much superior ability and the confidence he got from the goal v St Mirren, he know looks a fantastic player which is what we were expecting.

Possibly all true.
However, whatever way you look at it, this guy was not performing at th level he was capable of, the management persisted with him and he has now proven himself.

 

[tazzabear]

Do we think that Gerrard sees game time and hard work as the way to gain form rather than time on the bench? Tav and Arfield are probably the two most noticeable, but Ojo, Kamara and Goldson could also be considered players who are plainly not firing on all cylinders just now and all of them are starting every game. I do not think that with his experience as a player he cannot see that form is lacking, he must see it, so there has to be a reason for him picking these players rather than benching them. Other than Ojo (due to injuries) we have deputies for them all (granted Polster for Tav is not quite as clear cut) who could do a good job.

I think the 'favourites' argument is perhaps a little facile and that he maybe believes that players regain previous form by playing their way back to a level and that it is a much longer road back from the bench?

May I flip the question?
How many times have you seen a player dropped and come back to the level he was at?

 

[HandsomeHead]

The favourites accusation is just internet messageboard nonsense.

The idea that Gerrard refuses to drop players he knows are under performing because he just likes them better than the alternatives is actually laughable, the assumption being that an ambitious individual of world renown would jeopardise a managerial career still in its infancy on something so petty and whimsical.

As poor as Tav has been, and to a lesser extent Arfield and Goldson, at their best they still offer more than their immediate replacements.

Ojo is slightly different I think but wouldn’t be surprised to see him get less game time now that Kent is available again.

There’s always much gnashing of teeth and introspection following poor results, but for me the bottom line is that as much as we’ve improved we still don’t have the strength in depth to drop senior players for important games, so with regard to the OPs original question, yes, I think there is an element of hoping players find their form, although I think part of that is borne out of necessity.

 

[Yankeeger]

Maybe he's proven he doesn't offer the same qualities?

I raise you Andy King

 

[tazzabear]

I raise you Andy King

Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from.

 

[RFCStu]

May I flip the question?
How many times have you seen a player dropped and come back to the level he was at?

Very good question.

Tav has become the main target of the screamers recently and, admittedly, he hasn't been up to his usual standards.

The next question I would ask is has there been a captain of any club dropped who has recovered from it? The only Rangers captain I can think of who was dropped was Butcher and Souness sold him within weeks. Big Amo was stripped of the captaincy but stayed in the team.

 

[Yankeeger]

Sorry, I don't get where you're coming from.

what's he done that won't get him a game that's two players I have listed who are taking a good wage out the club with no explanation on why they can't play why sign both if they can't play in front of someone who's having a bad spell

 

[scarebear]

When you are playing bad but winning it's not really an issue. Suppose losing 2 games recently will have Gerrard thinking. Imagine dropping Tav and Ojo etc when we were basically unbeaten apart from the scum game?

 

[jackstar]

I'd imagine he probably just thinks that chopping and changing the spine of the team just for the sake of it may do more harm than good. What if people got their wish and the likes of Tavernier, Goldson and Arfield were dropped for weeks for Poster, Edmundson and Stewart and we dropped a load of points and fell well behind in the title race? The same people calling for the changes would slate the manager is what would happen.

I can understand why he leaves Tav in,because there's no one like him in terms of his driving forward, but I think Ojo and Arfield should be rested. I'd like to see Greg Stewart get a run of games and the sooner Kent gets up to speed the better.

 

[HandsomeHead]

what's he done that won't get him a game that's two players I have listed who are taking a good wage out the club with no explanation on why they can't play why sign both if they can't play in front of someone who's having a bad spell

This 'why is Andy King not getting a game' thing is really beginning to build up a head of steam on here.

Could it not be as simple as Gerrard just doesn't feel he's showing enough of what he wants in training?

The alternative again is to presume that Gerrard actually does see King busting a gut and showing great quality during the week but then deliberately overlooks him for other players he knows aren't playing at their best simply because he just likes those guys more.

 

[Rangers500]

He’s continuing to pick our best players who he will believe will put in much better performances than their lesser reserve player can muster over a longer period of time.

 

[tazzabear]

what's he done that won't get him a game that's two players I have listed who are taking a good wage out the club with no explanation on why they can't play why sign both if they can't play in front of someone who's having a bad spell

Sorry, wasn’t being facetious.
You’re right, what have they done, or not done, might be more appropriate but, an explanation?
Not sure that’ll be offered anytime soon.

 

[tazzabear]

He’s continuing to pick our best players who he will believe will put in much better performances than their lesser reserve player can muster over a longer period of time.

Simple answer is often the correct one.
I can’t get my head around the idea that he’s willing to sacrifice his holy grail, his legacy even, by selecting players that he has better options than.

 

[Est1872]

I think there a few things at play.

One element is that these are some of our senior players who’ll help keep the shape, intensity and tactics of the game up to what the the coaching staff want even if they individually aren’t up to full-speed. There’s a reason we’ve stuck to the game plan and not panicked in certain games and that’s down to the experience of guys like Tav/Arfield/Davis.

Another fact is that as a support we aren’t entirely privy to what the players’ individual instructions are. I think it’s been obvious from Gerrard before that he’s looking at more than surface level stuff that we focus on. It’s possible that someone like Arfield is doing a lot of what the gaffer wants even though he’s not at his best and scoring goals etc. An extremely basic example would be that he’s effectively dragging players out of position off the ball – so he’s contributing to our build up without it being obvious on the eye.

Then there’s the fact that this is a results business and although some of these players haven’t been on top form, as a team we’ve been doing very well. If we were to take out guys like Tav/Arfield and the results dipped, we would 100% be asking ‘why fix something that isn’t broken’?.

Ojo is the exception and I the only reason he hasn’t seen the bench is because of injuries.

Obviously this is all speculative and could be total bullshït, but the coaching staff aren’t going to be blindly picking players for no reason, even if the reasons aren’t immediately obvious to us.

Very good post.

 

[Rangers500]

Simple answer is often the correct one.
I can’t get my head around the idea that he’s willing to sacrifice his holy grail, his legacy even, by selecting players that he has better options than.

You can’t get your head around it because it just doesn’t make sense.

I hope a good chunk of people on here don’t buy stocks and shares because they would be dumping good stock the day after it drops by a penny whilst all the evidence points towards it recovering and improving.

This analogy sums up our captain perfectly, in the summer most were saying he was the player we simply couldn’t replace but after a couple of slip ups for goals and a draw at tynecastle he should be punted and stripped of the captaincy. I’m so glad Gerrard looks at what he has offered over the past 2 years rather than over the past 2 weeks.

 

[Graemelins]

Is Borna Barisic not a living example of this?

Spot on- I had written him off, but to be fair, he’s knuckled down and looking like a player now.

 

[Baillie1872]

Has Polster done anything wrong when played to warrant the refusal to play him

He looks like he has good bit of dig about him too, unlike Kamara and Ojo (im not suggesting he plays in that position)

 

[tazzabear]

You can’t get your head around it because it just doesn’t make sense.

I hope a good chunk of people on here don’t buy stocks and shares because they would be dumping good stock the day after it drops by a penny whilst all the evidence points towards it recovering and improving.

This analogy sums up our captain perfectly, in the summer most were saying he was the player we simply couldn’t replace but after a couple of slip ups for goals and a draw at tynecastle he should be punted and stripped of the captaincy. I’m so glad Gerrard looks at what he has offered over the past 2 years rather than over the past 2 weeks.

Great post.
I was ready to snap as I read the first three or four words.

 

[Valley Bluenose]

The favourites accusation is just internet messageboard nonsense.

The idea that Gerrard refuses to drop players he knows are under performing because he just likes them better than the alternatives is actually laughable, the assumption being that an ambitious individual of world renown would jeopardise a managerial career still in its infancy on something so petty and whimsical.

As poor as Tav has been, and to a lesser extent Arfield and Goldson, at their best they still offer more than their immediate replacements.

Ojo is slightly different I think but wouldn’t be surprised to see him get less game time now that Kent is available again.

There’s always much gnashing of teeth and introspection following poor results, but for me the bottom line is that as much as we’ve improved we still don’t have the strength in depth to drop senior players for important games, so with regard to the OPs original question, yes, I think there is an element of hoping players find their form, although I think part of that is borne out of necessity.

This 'common sense' stuff has no place on this forum FFS. Get a grip man.

Folk like to come on and post about 'Gerrard's favourites' when , in truth, much of the time its so they can 'push' their own favourites. Katic recently being a prime example. Last season it was get Flanagan in for Barisic. We even have posters suggesting getting McCrorie back to replace Kamara. What next, get Alnwick back to replace Greegs the next time he makes a mistake?

The simple, and brutal, truth is that we have no better alternative to Tav - even in his current form. What on Earth leads folk to believe that Polster and Flanagan could come in and immediately be error-free? I'd warrant we'd get posts complaining of Flanagan getting needlessly booked/sent off/suspended and Polster offering little to support the attack. Then at the first sign of a mistake it would be 'WTF was the Manager thinking'? Stewart was dismissed as a wasted signing on here - until a few weeks ago when he had 1 good performance.

Goldson, in an all-round poor team performance, was one of our better players last Sunday. His form, other than one catastrophic error, has been generally decent and is improving. Kamara, to a lesser degree, is likewise. Ojo is a young lad finding his way, he will be rotated more and more as Kent and Jones come back to fitness.

We've had a pretty good start to the season. The sense of utter panic on here at every setback is alarming. Roll with the punches, there will be more to come for us - just as there will for 'them'.

 

[MightyGersLand!]

I'd imagine he probably just thinks that chopping and changing the spine of the team just for the sake of it may do more harm than good. What if people got their wish and the likes of Tavernier, Goldson and Arfield were dropped for weeks for Poster, Edmundson and Stewart and we dropped a load of points and fell well behind in the title race? The same people calling for the changes would slate the manager is what would happen.

Does it have to be so black and white?
If he trusts the squad one should drop out at a time, if we dropped Goldson out and Helander and Katic formed a decent partnership over 3 weeks, it could then be time to drop Arfield for Stewart, and if that's all still working a few weeks later you maybe give Tav a rest.
I don't think many people are suggesting we just sack the whole team and play those second fiddle.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Gerrards argument up until Sunday would just have been why change a winning team?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Does it have to be so black and white?
If he trusts the squad one should drop out at a time, if we dropped Goldson out and Helander and Katic formed a decent partnership over 3 weeks, it could then be time to drop Arfield for Stewart, and if that's all still working a few weeks later you maybe give Tav a rest.
I don't think many people are suggesting we just sack the whole team and play those second fiddle.

Speaking of things being so black and white; people assuming Katic and Helander will form a partnership is another mystery. Katic is right footed but has almost always played on the left hand side of the two centre halves so clearly is more comfortable there. If Helander is left footed, is that going to work, and if so how long will it take for them to get used to each other?

As for your last point, I've seen more than a few people demanding that Polster and Andy King play despite them playing about 4 games between them.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

I think Gerrard's comments on Tav today pretty much answer the question. He wants Tav to reset and play his way back to form.