Point / Counter Point re SG - the bad luck

Earl of Leven

Earl of Leven

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Fascinating debates on here and mostly all civil!! I personally have some doubts (always did but was ridiculed for not being on the Gerrard Express!)....another aspect is bad luck.

1. The refs - shambolic. For me mostly not a conspiracy but just low quality, part-time and clueless. With one or two actual cheats.
2. League Cup Final - really should have been a trophy. Poor finishing is not something manager can be blamed for...on another day would anyone have argued with 4-0?
3. "Hitting the ground running". Surely manager expected more form likes of Kent, Kamara etc who had been here, knew the league and had played for us last season? See also most of the defence.
4. Alfie. The system, such as it was, depended entirely on Alfie up front banging in goals. Hard to blame manager for his collapse in form.

I realise though that manager has HUGE part to play in 3. and 4. but surely cannot be responsible as such?
 
injuries, suspensions and sellik winning 57/60 also a factor.

he carries some share of the responsibility but it is a complex picture.

winners make their own luck and sellik are, on course for a quadruple treble, serial winners.
 
Point one without these frankly cowards we would be closer.
Point two can be the same as point one add in we were a wee bit unlucky.
Point three can be ‘ blamed’ partly on him, he needs to use his squad and change tactics every now and then.
Point four system was too heavily reliant on Alfie keeping up his form or staying injury/ suspension free. He needed another option or two be that change in system or personnel.

He isn’t wholly responsible but he has a large part to play he is too stubborn and is conservative in his substitutions, although he does appear to be learning a little.
 
It can be argued as a mixture of both but the players for me need to step up and take responsibility as they simply have not been good enough after the winter break whichever way you disguise it up.
The players have showed before the winter break they are capable and good enough but since after they haven’t produced which is the factor and worrying thing. Gerrard will carry the can because he’s the Manager but he needs to get this sorted before it’s going to cost him his job.
 
When Strikers are in form, they get lucky.
When they are out of form, everything bounces away from them.
It is the job of a manager to make decisions and know when an out of form striker should not be on the pitch.
I love Alfredo but would have dropped him at the weekend.
I’m just praying he gets his shooting boots back on for the Scottish Cup match.
 
Sunday alone, the 2nd ball, the 50/50's,we were 2nd best all over the park, I'm disappointed with the lack of physicality and aggression (consistently),that we lack!
Every mediocre teams plays us to the same tactics,11 men behind the ball,play us on the break,and mix it!,I
It's not the referees ALL of the time.
 
SOB-WATP said:
The league cup loss is massive.

That was the chance to get our first trophy after all.the shit and to break their domestic dominance.. in turn it would have had them baying for Lennon to leave.

We lost and now all the pressure is on Gerrard.

Fine margins.
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Agreed, although we bounced back very well in Dec.

that offside goal has had monumental consequences for our season.

we should have gone after the refs on the 29th of Dec, winces then refereeing decisions are directly attributable to at least 6 points of the current gap.
 
Most of our assists come from the full backs, whereas most of the assists for the bheasts come from their forwards. Stop our full backs and we toil. They have so many men forward, you can't stop them all. Take their recent goal v Aberdeen. Lewis saves, McGregor scores rebound from about 8 yards. There is no chance that Kamara, Davis or Jack would be that far forward.
 
sheddensbear said:
Most of our assists come from the full backs, whereas most of the assists for the bheasts come from their forwards. Stop our full backs and we toil. They have so many men forward, you can't stop them all. Take their recent goal v Aberdeen. Lewis saves, McGregor scores rebound from about 8 yards. There is no chance that Kamara, Davis or Jack would be that far forward.
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did Jack not score a goal similar to that on our last visit to Pittodrie in December?
 
Coisty09 said:
When Strikers are in form, they get lucky.
When they are out of form, everything bounces away from them.
It is the job of a manager to make decisions and know when an out of form striker should not be on the pitch.
I love Alfredo but would have dropped him at the weekend.
I’m just praying he gets his shooting boots back on for the Scottish Cup match.
Click to expand...
Luck is impossible to predict, you rarely notice when its with you but its a scunner when its against you.

However, a famous Gary Player quote comes to mind. 'The more I practice the luckier I get.'

If your luck's out you've got to dig in and try harder.
 
If you rely on one player,, Morelos, you're doomed when he is injured or off form unless you've a plan B.

We have no plan B.

Defoe was never going to be capable of delivering what Morelos was.

Morelos also should know what he does to the team by getting suspended. That's poor management.
 
Everything is focussed more on European progression than league. Gerrard is more inclined towards a European style, as are his back room staff tacticians.

Our young players, aribo, Kent, hagi, are all hoping for better than the spl and are aware that doing well in Europe gets them reputation points for bigger moves.

Gerrard knows to progress with the team, forgetting his own personal aspirations which also depend on euro games, he needs money. To get money euro success is needed. He won't get much cash to spend winning spl.

I fear the aspirations of both our manager, and majority of players lie in Europe, which unfortunately doesn't align with the fans, who are more determined to stop the scum reaching 10.

Not saying they don't want to win the spl, but it's very much secondary to their own success and aspirations.

We miss a strong spine of mcgregors, arfields and Davis type players.
 
Speccy hotdog said:
They are the scum, manky mob, peados on here. Enough of that
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You know who he means though, don't you?
Not as if he called them anything praiseworthy.
The op makes good points and the bear answered constructively. So he called them sellick, big deal.

Me?
Gerrards seeming stubbornness and intransigence is not helping atm. Players who have lost form should be rotated.
Refs have cost us a trophy and at least six points.
We are improving under SG. I'm still on board
 
Earl of Leven said:
Fascinating debates on here and mostly all civil!! I personally have some doubts (always did but was ridiculed for not being on the Gerrard Express!)....another aspect is bad luck.

1. The refs - shambolic. For me mostly not a conspiracy but just low quality, part-time and clueless. With one or two actual cheats.
2. League Cup Final - really should have been a trophy. Poor finishing is not something manager can be blamed for...on another day would anyone have argued with 4-0?
3. "Hitting the ground running". Surely manager expected more form likes of Kent, Kamara etc who had been here, knew the league and had played for us last season? See also most of the defence.
4. Alfie. The system, such as it was, depended entirely on Alfie up front banging in goals. Hard to blame manager for his collapse in form.

I realise though that manager has HUGE part to play in 3. and 4. but surely cannot be responsible as such?
Click to expand...
There’s a difference between being responsible for and being to blame for.
There’s a bit to go for me to consider going against the manager but he needs to ask himself why things have went wrong, not just over the piece but game to game.
You may well find that we didn’t lose three games in his first eighteen months when we’ve been ahead.
We’ve now managed this three times this year!
That’s nine points.
Add another two from the sheep draw.
This is my biggest criticism of the management.
That we’ve shown ourselves to be good enough before shooting ourselves in both feet.
 
dt17 said:
The officials have cost us a league cup trophy and I'd say honestly about 7-9 points since the turn of the year alone.
Click to expand...

Nowhere near that I am afraid. We have been god awful and one dimensional. That's why we have dropped points. And the wins against Hibs and Livingston could easily have been draws.

Officials cost us at Aberdeen away before the break when Morelos was brought down and a free kick was given instead of a penalty. But we should have been out of sight in the first half that game and that was when the doubt started to creep in.

Kilmarnock away...their first goal might have been handball but we blew that game as well.

The officials are pish, but we have got what we deserved post split IMO.
 
le suede said:
Gerrard knows to progress with the team, forgetting his own personal aspirations which also depend on euro games, he needs money. To get money euro success is needed. He won't get much cash to spend winning spl.

I fear the aspirations of both our manager, and majority of players lie in Europe, which unfortunately doesn't align with the fans, who are more determined to stop the scum reaching 10.
Click to expand...

When assessing Gerrard's impact the Board will also be treating our European success as equivalent in not greater than trophy wins. It is so important to our medium term re-build.

However, pressure will crank up on next season with '10-in-a-row' being a thing many can't see past.
 
As someone said the other day, if Morelos hadn't stank the place out at Hampden we'd have our first silverware since May 2011, and Gerrard's first. A hell of a lot of pressure removed right there if we'd managed to convert a couple of the numerous chances. We lost, though, because too many of our players have a weak mentality, and have never before played for a side that has to win every game and win titles.
 
jaws73 said:
When assessing Gerrard's impact the Board will also be treating our European success as equivalent in not greater than trophy wins. It is so important to our medium term re-build.

However, pressure will crank up on next season with '10-in-a-row' being a thing many can't see past.
Click to expand...

You are correct, but I'd also add I find it completely unfair that Gerrard will be expected to carry the can if that mob do 10 given that they had a 7 year head start and Gerrard walked into a mess of a squad after some pretty horrific and financially costly mistakes by the board.
 
Re point #4, the system also relies heavily on Tav and now Borna. The problem is, injuries & suspensions happen and form drops. You do need to have a plan to deal with those eventualities and we don't seem to have one.

You then bring in players who are, not unreasonably, not as good as the ones you're replacing (and in the case of our full backs, just aren't capable of playing a similar style). The result is your whole team stutters, system fails and you even lump more pressure on to the players coming-in and it highlights their deficiencies.
 
Xavi Hernandez said:
Nowhere near that I am afraid. We have been god awful and one dimensional. That's why we have dropped points. And the wins against Hibs and Livingston could easily have been draws.

Officials cost us at Aberdeen away before the break when Morelos was brought down and a free kick was given instead of a penalty. But we should have been out of sight in the first half that game and that was when the doubt started to creep in.

Kilmarnock away...their first goal might have been handball but we blew that game as well.

The officials are pish, but we have got what we deserved post split IMO.
Click to expand...

- Aberdeen, denied a stone wall pen at 2-2 (2 points dropped).
- Kilmarnock, hand ball & good goal chopped off (3 points dropped).
- Hibs & Livi allowed to kick us all over the park, lucky to finish with 11 men, could've dropped points there.
- There's another game which escapes me atm where we should've won as well but for officiating.
- League Cup Final another.

BTW us being poor and the refs costing us can both happen you know. The fact is we can't have an off day and scrape a win due to the awful decisions going against us.
 
Treble Kings said:
As someone said the other day, if Morelos hadn't stank the place out at Hampden we'd have our first silverware since May 2011, and Gerrard's first. A hell of a lot of pressure removed right there if we'd managed to convert a couple of the numerous chances. We lost, though, because too many of our players have a weak mentality, and have never before played for a side that has to win every game and win titles.
Click to expand...

We actually lost that game due to an offside goal being allowed to stand.

Take Morelos' finishing out of the equation, without that goal being allowed we still don't lose that game.
 
ascender said:
Re point #4, the system also relies heavily on Tav and now Borna. The problem is, injuries & suspensions happen and form drops. You do need to have a plan to deal with those eventualities and we don't seem to have one.

You then bring in players who are, not unreasonably, not as good as the ones you're replacing (and in the case of our full backs, just aren't capable of playing a similar style). The result is your whole team stutters, system fails and you even lump more pressure on to the players coming-in and it highlights their deficiencies.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Knowing how vital certain players are to a formation there is no excuses for trying to play the same way with Flanagan, Halliday and Morelos in place of Tav, Borna and Defoe. We had to adjust to suit the personnel available and we didn't. Square pegs in round holes.

Edit: Even Polster came in and looked infinitely more assured than Flanagan making me wonder why he was ever overlooked in the first place.

The forward right position has been problematic for the majority of the season also. Arfield struggled massively being shoe horned into that position, Aribo then started to blossom there but now we're seeing Hagi be placed out there.

Also has to be said that deeming Murphy and Docherty either not fit enough or good enough as opposed to guys like Ojo, Barker and on current form Kamara looks like really poor judgement too.
 
Walter2 said:
Sunday alone, the 2nd ball, the 50/50's,we were 2nd best all over the park, I'm disappointed with the lack of physicality and aggression (consistently),that we lack!
Every mediocre teams plays us to the same tactics,11 men behind the ball,play us on the break,and mix it!,I
It's not the referees ALL of the time.
Click to expand...

What do you reckon would be the outcome for our players if they lunged into challenges like Aberdeen and others regularly do against us ?
 
dt17 said:
We actually lost that game due to an offside goal being allowed to stand.

Take Morelos' finishing out of the equation, without that goal being allowed we still don't lose that game.
Click to expand...

We don't win it either due to honking finishing and decision making, ffs...You don't share a Cup for God's Sake, mate, you score one more than the opposition, by fair means or foul, and you take it home...
 
dt17 said:
The officials have cost us a league cup trophy and I'd say honestly about 7-9 points since the turn of the year alone.
Click to expand...
Winning that cup gives our players that winning feeling and lifts them, gives them confidence. The other team winning whilst being outplayed keeps their run going and has given them the upper hand mentally.
 
The scum have only lost 7 out of 66 league games since Gerrard took over and we've inflicted 3 of those.

Highlights how we basically can no longer afford to lose games outside of OF matches.

(for the record we've only lost 9)
 
Treble Kings said:
We don't win it either due to honking finishing and decision making, ffs...You don't share a Cup for God's Sake, mate, you score one more than the opposition, by fair means or foul, and you take it home...
Click to expand...

Point is if you don't concede goals you don't lose games. Celtic won that cup final with a goal which shouldn't have stood.
 
Earl of Leven said:
Fascinating debates on here and mostly all civil!! I personally have some doubts (always did but was ridiculed for not being on the Gerrard Express!)....another aspect is bad luck.

1. The refs - shambolic. For me mostly not a conspiracy but just low quality, part-time and clueless. With one or two actual cheats.
2. League Cup Final - really should have been a trophy. Poor finishing is not something manager can be blamed for...on another day would anyone have argued with 4-0?
3. "Hitting the ground running". Surely manager expected more form likes of Kent, Kamara etc who had been here, knew the league and had played for us last season? See also most of the defence.
4. Alfie. The system, such as it was, depended entirely on Alfie up front banging in goals. Hard to blame manager for his collapse in form.

I realise though that manager has HUGE part to play in 3. and 4. but surely cannot be responsible as such?
Click to expand...

I'd maybe give you 1, but,

2. Substituting on Barker to go at the Celtic defence and moving Kent into the middle was an abysmal decision. It was the same position that Murty lost from.
3. He spent considerable money on Kent (immediately after an OF loss) and signed and continues to play a player signed from a relegated team in the middle of the park.
4. Contingency problems, maybe? Unlucky Defoe went injured at the same time. Generally I think as a team we've been much poorer and Morelos has probably taken the brunt of it.
 
Xavi Hernandez said:
Nowhere near that I am afraid. We have been god awful and one dimensional. That's why we have dropped points. And the wins against Hibs and Livingston could easily have been draws.

Officials cost us at Aberdeen away before the break when Morelos was brought down and a free kick was given instead of a penalty. But we should have been out of sight in the first half that game and that was when the doubt started to creep in.

Kilmarnock away...their first goal might have been handball but we blew that game as well.

The officials are pish, but we have got what we deserved post split IMO.
Click to expand...
This is right - nobody is saying the officials haven’t been suspect but the performances haven’t merited winning those matches and there have a been a few others that have been narrow if not lucky wins.
 
dt17 said:
Point is if you don't concede goals you don't lose games. Celtic won that cup final with a goal which shouldn't have stood.
Click to expand...

The other side of the argument is we take our chances and we bury them. We couldn’t even find the net from the penalty spot that day.
 
WinkieWATP said:
The other side of the argument is we take our chances and we bury them. We couldn’t even find the net from the penalty spot that day.
Click to expand...

Both things aren't mutually exclusive though but I agree we should be playing better.
 
dt17 said:
Both things aren't mutually exclusive though but I agree we should be playing better.
Click to expand...

The thing that really stung about the final was that we were excellent in near enough every area in the final bar the all important one putting the ball in the net. How David Roome missed the offside ill never know.

We however showed a fantastic reaction from this which makes the current form even more bizarre.
 
Nice to see a little balance and sympathy for Gerrard amidst the avalanche of doom and gloom these past few days.

Thing is though, it’s not just Alfie out of sorts, it’s pretty much everyone.

My own theory is that they’re actually a bit knackered.
This was shot down by most when I suggested it previously - the usual accusations of players getting paid a fortune, professional athletes should be able to handle two games a week, second string side should be able to take care of Hearts and Kilmarnock, etc, etc - all reasonable points, but it’s the collective lethargy they returned from the winter break with and which they’ve been unable to shake off that’s been the most glaring issue for me.

No zip, no verve, no passion. It’s just gone, vanished into the ether at some point after December 29th.

I’m pretty sure Gerrard is still instructing them to press high, to play the one touch stuff at speed and all the rest of it, but it’s just not there anymore - they can’t do it.

So why?

Could it be our training is wrong? Is it too intense?

I don’t really buy into the lack of bottle thing - it took a lot of bottle to rock up at the San Giro and win that game when the ref was trying his best to gift Celtic the points and it took bottle to qualify for the Europa League and then the knockout stage and it took bottle to come back from 2 down to Braga last week and even go out in the League Cup final and play the Yahoos off the park - we have bottle, we’ve seen plenty of it - so I have to think it’s something else.

We’ve played about a dozen games more than anyone else bar the Beasts this season and as much as we have a bigger squad than everyone else bar the Beasts too, theirs is bigger and better than ours hence the reason they’re ahead.

I accept tactics haven’t helped - to play our high intensity game requires super fit technical players that we don’t really have enough of.

Celtic changed their setup after we gubbed them and now play the percentages to huge success.

This is what Gerrard needs to learn, IMO.

Ditch the pretensions at Klopp lite purism and adapt our game to counteract ten man defences and up and under football.

I really do think it’s as simple as that.
 
We rely as much on having our 2 best full backs playing as we rely on Morelos.
How many points have we dropped when both Tavernier and Barisic played?
 
Sandbear said:
Point one without these frankly cowards we would be closer.
Point two can be the same as point one add in we were a wee bit unlucky.
Point three can be ‘ blamed’ partly on him, he needs to use his squad and change tactics every now and then.
Point four system was too heavily reliant on Alfie keeping up his form or staying injury/ suspension free. He needed another option or two be that change in system or personnel.

He isn’t wholly responsible but he has a large part to play he is too stubborn and is conservative in his substitutions, although he does appear to be learning a little.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with your too stubborn and is conservative in his substitutions observation but I totally disagree that he’s learning a little, not even close.
 
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