These are the only two I’d entertain. Just an all round even spread of games and no stupid splits!
Poll: Your Reconstruction Preference
- Thread starter Bangersbc
- Start date
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Apparently it's too much to ask.
But following this old chat bump, the status quo or proposed 12-12-10-10 has gathered a stonking 24 votes combined. 18-14-14 in all of its randomness accelerates ahead with 100+ votes today.
It's a shame the leagues chairmen are all for listening to fans when it comes to knocking back colts, but when it comes to league expansion they misteriously go deaf..
bob1873
Well-Known Member
18 teams? There’s not 18 decent teams in Scotland there needs to be a radical rethink on the team numbers but that’s a tough idea to push it‘s not really worked in Inverness as in amalgamation. Scotland’s team numbers are unsustainable and well above what the population can reasonably sustain.
-ZED-
Well-Known Member
7/7 split does not work, it needs to be even. A 6/8 split is much better. More revenue (extra home games) for bottom 8 that miss out on old firm home games.
Top 6 play 36 games
Bottom 8 play 40 games
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Little quality we have is the point ain't it?
Are we really looking at adding Dunfermline, Inverness, Hearts, Raith etc as a massive downgrade? Were falkirk and Partick embaressments when they were in it? Would their local fan bases start to thrive again given the opportunity to play in the top flight (and potentially consistently - not just for single season cameos in a relegation battle)? Probably. That's 18 teams right there I wouldn't bad an eyelid at. And thats not including up and coming ambitious clubs such as Edinburgh City and cove who could be giants in aFew decades, or historic teams such as Ayr, airdionians, Queen of the South etc who could gain a new lease of life being within touching distance of a season in the big league.
Our top flight is so small that it hasn't been able to accommodate any clubs from Edinburgh in it some years in the last decade, and barely even both at the same time. I realise both have had issues, but these were issues that were exacerbated by relegation. Same with Dundee. Its the equivalent of the Premier league (if you see rangers, celtic and Aberdeen as the top 3 and equivalents being man c, man u and Liverpool, but having arsenal and Chelsea getting regularly relegated). Its not conducive to a good long-term competition (as clearly demonstrated by the state of the game here).
By expanding, we cut the gap between the old firm and the rest (almost guarentee) whilst also increasing the number of top flight local derbies annually (Dundee, Edinburgh, Highland, Fife, even Aberdeen will most likely become annual occurances.
I take your point: Am I gonna wanna watch rangers take on Queen of the South or falkirk when I could be watching us take on Aberdeen for the 50th time this decade? God yes! Much as I appreciate sometimes we glorify a tight close affair. If you were given the chance to watch Real Madrid against Brechin - your gonna watch that game!
But if you look at the mocked up 18 team top flight as based on the current league tables, they really don't look any worse than what we have already. If we get away with a league with Ross County, Hamilton, St Mirren and Livingston in it, I see no issue letting in the ones names there (so long as they are professional and (for God sake) are made to play on grass!
Inspector Blake
Well-Known Member
How about us and the paedos play each other 34 times a season and %^*& the rest of them.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
There's not 12. Doesn't stop them all being in the league though now.
England don't have 20 (or at least didn't and wouldn't now without TV money). No-ones saying raith would be coming up and challenging for the title. But perhaps with a league system where the relegation zone is being contested by teams the league can afford to lose (like Inverness, Hamilton, Partick thistle) then teams who should be the ones up challenging for league titles based on their history/fanbase/size such as the Edinburgh and Dundee clubs will have a little more wriggle room. A country of our size should not have a league system where the capital city has no teams represented in the top flight.
As I see it the core of our top flight should be:
1.Rangers
2. Celtic
3. Hearts
4. Hibs
5. Aberdeen
6. Motherwell
7. Kilmarnock
8. Dundee Utd
9. Dundee
10. Hamilton
Based on fan bases, local population sizes (theoretically guarenteeing the longevity of this fan bases) and history, these are 10 teams personally I'd always want to see in the top flight given the choice.
In a perfect scenario Aberdeen would have a local rival, and one is fast rising up the divisions as we speak so let's go ahead and add:
11. Cove rangers.
As once they are there we will all want them to stay there for that local Derby.
The current set-up then allows for 1 place remaining. That one place to be rotated amongst:
Other Glasgow teams:
12. St Mirren
13. Partick Thistte
Perth:
14. St Johnstone
Other Edinburgh Teams:
15. Edinburgh City (may well follow cove rising year on year and have a brand that is arguably more commercially attractive than either hearts or hibs).
16. Huge potential for midlothian team at present due to population migration trends driven by house prices in Edinburgh itself. A team live Bonnyrigg Rose may find themselves with a very big fan base in the not too distant future.
Other central belt names:
17. Falkirk
18. Livingston
Fifers
19. Raith
20. Dunfirmline
Highlands
21. Inverness
22. Ross County
That's 22 teams there I wouldn't blink an eye at. And you know what. Let's say worst comes to the worst and Greenock Morten or Arbroath fluke their way into the top tier. Who cares?! We get a new place to go for a day out, and their fans get to have the most fun they have had for 32 years / their entire 140 year history respectively!
If that isn't breathing fresh life into out national game, I don't know what is.
SSJack
Well-Known Member
Good points here .
Playing each other 4 times a season is chronic , sometimes 6, 7 or even 8 times in the one season depending on cup draws etc . Horrific . Something needs to change .
Arminger
Active Member
It really irks me when people talk about diddy teams and dross referring to the smaller clubs as it really is so ignorant. We proved going through the leagues that we will fill Ibrox irrespective of who the opposition is, so lets go for the bigger modell, bring the colts in and give the whole of Scottish football the shot in the arm it needs.
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CooperOnTheWing
Well-Known Member
18 teams and share the gate money - the latter to raise the standard of the opposition, ultimately benefitting our own club.
YorkshireBlue
Well-Known Member
3 x 18 teams. No more of this diddy set up where teams play each other 4 times a year, sometimes more.
There are easily 6 teams in the Championship who would compete the same as teams in the Premiership.
There are easily 6 teams in the Championship who would compete the same as teams in the Premiership.
CooperOnTheWing
Well-Known Member
Why terrible? Number of games? There’s no difference in quality amongst a host of clubs outside the top 6 or so. 14 or 18 there’s no difference in the teams, so what else?
I think we just have to look at the quality further down the SPL and then think what it would be like playing the teams sitting in the middle of the championship? Would we end up with more park the bus mentality which makes for a rotten product plus I don’t think the little additional money on offer to these extra clubs will help them advance much as when all is said and done their fan base is their fan base and it’s not like there is an additional 20k fans of each QOS / Ayr / Dunfermline etc just inching to start attending games if they were in the SPL? I’m obviously assuming that 18 team league would mean play everybody twice. Im not particularly entrenched in my view, just my initial thoughts, be interested to hear why you think 18 would be good for us, the game etc?
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
No split?!? How's that working? 26 game season? 52?! Or 39 but with uneven home and away fixtures?
I too would be happy with 14, but fact is it is impossible without having a split realistically. Hence the appetite for 18
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
In fairness not all to do with money. More players would be willing to sign for them if they were in an expanded top league as it would put them in the shop window. Same with clubs agreeing to loan them youngsters on the cheap. Their quality would most likely go up even if they invested no more money. Although you would fancy their ticket sales etc would go up with time naturally with inclusion in the top flight anyways.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Aye. Play twice in a 34 game season. I agree that you are unlikely to see an immediate change in their fan bases. But perhaps increased presence in the top flight on a consistent basis would help to mean young kids in those towns are growing up fully supporting their local team, rather than the an spl team primarily and viewing their local team as their 2nd team (which happens a lot as lower leagues are often taken less seriously than the top leagues particularly old firm.
Let's face it. Kids in montrose must barely believe their local team plays the same sport at those in the top flight the number of times they will ever play against each other. Expanded top flight, changed attitude perhaps. Those montrose may still struggle to get anywhere near it haha
Dr. Strangelove
Well-Known Member
The Swiss top flight has 10 teams for over 8 million people.
We have 12 for 5 and a half.
We have 12 for 5 and a half.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Logic that would give us a 1 team luxemburg top tier?
We can argue that there are too many professional teams in the system. But fact is there are enough football players in the country at least to sustain all 42 teams at present (and then some) and like it or not they are going no-where. The question is do we have several small tiers with a near negligible ability to move quickly between them and seems to be promoting stagnation, or do we rearrange them to fewer larger leagues which may well share the cash better, and allow ambitious teams to rise to prominence faster?
I can see that point of view, still not sure it would pan out like that though. Looking from a purely rangers selfish slant I think our ability to attract and retain players would become harder. I think the 14 (with hearts and 1 other like ICT /Dundee) would not take the quality down. I think the financial ‘pie’ we are all competing for is a) not very big and b) not likely to get much bigger given the quality of the people who run out game so I’m my opinion the sad reality is we have too many senior clubs but that’s a thread on its own. We need to be playing against better every week not worse which will enable us to take that next step against Slavia / Leverkusen.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Do remember, that if its hand in and with colts, the standard of Scottish footballers will hopefully increase. The old firm 'rejects' will be of a higher standard and more experienced. This may well filter through to the rest of the top flight who start to absorb who don't make the grade (or even start poaching them with the offer if first team football after they impress for the colts).
I agree the pie may not be any bigger, but it may taste significantly sweeter without sharing it between too many more teams. (2 Highland league teams payments easily offset by old firm colt payments I'd have thought).
Plus, with the best will in the world, folk are signing for us to get trophies and European football. They shouldn't care too much whether is St Mirren parking the bus 4 times a season or St Mirren and falkirk 2 times each.
CooperOnTheWing
Well-Known Member
I think teams would be less likely to park the bus in an 18 team league. I would also go back to sharing the gate money to raise the standard of the opposition. The latter more important than the former in improving standards.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I can’t see any logical argument against an 18 team top flight that isn’t about the “other 8” looking to keep their extra 2 games against Rangers and Celtic and avoiding having to share the TV pool more widely.
From a purely Rangers fan perspective , I don’t think the drop in quality between Premiership teams 11 and 12 versus Championship sides 5 and 6 is big enough to make the games against them any more inferior and it would certainly be a hell of a lot less boring than seeing the same teams every few weeks.
From a purely Rangers fan perspective , I don’t think the drop in quality between Premiership teams 11 and 12 versus Championship sides 5 and 6 is big enough to make the games against them any more inferior and it would certainly be a hell of a lot less boring than seeing the same teams every few weeks.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
I have to be honest, I am violently opposed to sharing home gate money. Rangers fans out enough money into the coffers of other clubs when we visit and from our Sky subscriptions, I’ll be fucked if I want my season ticket money going to them as well.
CooperOnTheWing
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t help our club in the long run. Not easy to attract players if they can see they’ll be playing against dross.
Jimbo 1690
Well-Known Member
I reckon an 18 team premier league could see a rise in the quality of football on offer because current mid table premier teams would feel much safer from sometimes finding themselves in a relegation battle because they’ve had a bad season, due to the rise in numbers, therefor it’s a possibility the quality may improve with teams being allowed a bit more opporrunity to take chances and go for it in more games than at present, where every point matters because a team can easily go from sixth place to tenth with a few bad results in such a small league
LJ50
Well-Known Member
Be a lot harder to attract them with little over 50% of the budget... “The teams you will be playing against are a bit less shit, but your salary will be half what you can get elsewhere. Fancy it?”
Sorry mate, but it’s a daft idea. It would bring up the level of the other teams, but it would reduce ours and I’m in favour of nothing that makes us weaker. Anything we can do to improve the others, I’m all ears, but not at our expense.
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Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Would be interesting to see what other fans thought about it and get some media pressure for a bigger league. The irony of a sky sports article on Scottish fans demanding a top league expansion would be delightful lol
CooperOnTheWing
Well-Known Member
It’s not a new idea, that’s how it used to be and the standard of the league was far, far higher. Gate money would soon become less important to us when enhanced sponsorship revenue, in lieu of a much better product and us being the top team, kicked in.
It would increase our level, better opposition makes players better and lessens the gulf between domestic and European football (compare goals conceded at Ibrox this season).
LJ50
Well-Known Member
That's fantasy, I'm afraid.
In our last accounts, ticket sales make up ~62% of our revenue. Giving up around £19m of revenue means that our sponsorship and TV income would have to increase by more than 3.5x just to get back to where we are now.
The economics of football simply aren't what they were in the 1960s and 1970s. We're in a tiny television market. The product will never, ever be better than Spain, England, Germany and Italy. Certainly not to the worldwide market. So we're largely dependant on the value of the domestic market plus ex-pats. The SPFL TV income isn't going to increase 4 fold, there is no economic rationale for that.
Even the egregiously stupid Roger Mitchell only thought he could double the value of the deal and, in the time since, it's risen by about 20%. Yes it might go up a bit with a higher quality league attracting more viewers in Scotland, but the idea that it goes up 400% (in real terms) is fanciful.
Apologies for posing a different question from the OP but my big fear of a bigger league would be my opinion that the quality would drop and like already said, happy to reconstruct to assist others progress but not at our expense or progression so what do we think about the American draft system? I know they have the collage route which doesn’t exist here and can see plenty of pros or cons but it would certainly allow the small teams to get decent money every season as they would have assets to sell on and the fact that all the good players would have to play at least a season in the bottom tier would maybe bring the quality of the lower leagues up and maybe a few more fans? It might also mean that we could coach the so called poorest of the draft and see if we can make money by selling them on? (I’m board and enjoyed this thread so just putting it out there)
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Draft system is a hard pass from me.
A larger league though (e.g. 18 teams, should allow teams like hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs to establish themselves as best of the rest consistently, and either start challenging the old firm.
If they gain consistency against the rest - which is actually easier if the quality becomes a little poorer short term - and they only have to face each old firm team twice, they may find themselves more often challenging for the league title which would revitalise their fan bases (bringing them more money) and potentially lead to improvements in European performances following the fact they become more credible as title challengers improving their recruitment through reputation of not finances.
Draft way too wacky for my liking though.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Stv reporting they are due a meeting!/vote tomorrow on reconstruction. Colts potentially in year after next (Lowland league might not get us for long!) and then with some successive promotions from Highland and lowland we may well see a 48 club set-up!?
It's no 18-14-14 if you ask me
It's no 18-14-14 if you ask me
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
The deal with the Lowland League was always a single year deal. That was made very clear.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Oh, I know the deal and agreement was a single year commitment. I doubt severely that if it had been shown to be successful it wouldnt have been extended (and may yet be the spfl being what it is)
Valley Bluenose
RTV? Completed it mate!
I understand that the plan was always for the Lowland League being a ‘holding’ year pending the outcome of discussions with the SPFL on getting us into League 2.
There’s a thread started with a blog called ‘What Do Croatia Do Differently’ that has an interesting take on the Croatian version of Colts. It’s clear from that that our Colts need to be nearer Championship level rather than Lowland League or even League 2.
There’s also some interesting posts from @elfideldo highlighting the paucity of players we have eligible for the Colts under current rules and suggesting both Colts teams will likely struggle for impact in the Lowland League.
We‘ve a way to go in this stuff yet!
John Greigs beard
Well-Known Member
I went 18-24 so that the first team and the colts can be champions in both as well as the Ladies.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
A way to go yet, but hopefully the Lowland League agreement will be the catalyst. It won't take long before League 2 are angry they are missing the benefits, then it will take a few years to accept they can go up to league 1. And then a few more to go up to championship. But for it to maximize impact, championship must be the final destination for the colts (so long as it is earned through the pyramid of course)
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Fingers crossed for today's decision on colts. Such a shame that a decent sized top league like the majority of fans want will never be on the (league) table.
A nation with so many teams really doesn't need such small leagues nor, to have to play the same teams 4/5/6 times a season. If anything it probably serves only to hold some teams back.
A nation with so many teams really doesn't need such small leagues nor, to have to play the same teams 4/5/6 times a season. If anything it probably serves only to hold some teams back.
Bangersbc
Well-Known Member
Instigating 18-14-14 this season would have made a league system like this:
Premiership
Rangers
Aberdeen
Celtic
Dundee
Dundee utd
Dunfirmline
Hamilton
Hearts
Hibernian
Inverness CT
Kimarnock
Livingston
Motherwell
Queen of the South
Raith Rovers
Ross County
St johnstone
St mirren
Championship
Airdrie
Alloa
Arbroath
Ayr
Clyde
Cove
Dumbarton
East Fife
Falkirk
Montrose
Morton
Partick
Peterhead
Queens Park
Conference
Albion Rovers
Annan
Brechin
Brora
Celtic Colts
Cowdenbeath
Edinburgh City
Elgin city
Forfar
Kelty hearts
Rangers Colts
Stenhousemuir
Stirling Albion
Stranraer
Way more exciting and interesting than 12-12-10-10 if you ask me. And no uneven splits!
gordon_blue
Well-Known Member
Anything without a split.
Know all the fixtures at the start. Same number of home and away games. Not having to go to some away ground 3 times.
2 up and 2 down.
Know all the fixtures at the start. Same number of home and away games. Not having to go to some away ground 3 times.
2 up and 2 down.
Badger
Well-Known Member
With regards to the point that we don't have enough quality teams for an 18 team league - we don't have enough quality to fill a 12 team league.
The restructure should be done with view of improving the over all quality of the game in Scotland. Sadly money talks and any solution that sees there being 2 gaurntted old firms rather than 4 will dramatically reduce the TV and sponsor money. We are too shortsighted on this country to see the bigger picture and will always take the deal that gives us the quick cash fix. J think we need to take a hit and try and improve our game then reap the reward in the future when the leauge is more entertaining overall.
The restructure should be done with view of improving the over all quality of the game in Scotland. Sadly money talks and any solution that sees there being 2 gaurntted old firms rather than 4 will dramatically reduce the TV and sponsor money. We are too shortsighted on this country to see the bigger picture and will always take the deal that gives us the quick cash fix. J think we need to take a hit and try and improve our game then reap the reward in the future when the leauge is more entertaining overall.
Andy0Combs
Active Member
There would be no reconstruction that doesn't include 4 Old Firm games for the TV deal.
14 Team top flight with an 6/8 split after 26 games.
14 or 12 Team Championship with same 6/8 split as the Premiership or in the event of 12 the current split after 3 rounds of fixtures.
There would be a requirement for all teams in the top 2 divisions to be Professional. I have always believed the issue with the SPFL is the loosely applied Professional in the name. - These clubs would form a breakaway and the distribution of all sponsorship, TV monies would be amongst these clubs as it is with the 42 just now.
An annual consolidation would be paid to a new national league below each season.
The National league would have their own sponsorship and would be regionalised - Could be north, south, east, west there are loads of teams now in the pyramid system and this a bit lop sided as the their is no relegation from the highland league but loads of divisions feeding into the Lowland league. Regional champions would go into a promotion playoff with each other.
There would be promotion to the championship but the team coming up if not all ready full time professional would be required to become so. If they'd rather remain Part Time they don't get up. Colt teams would be able to enter the national league and get as far up as the Championship.
14 Team top flight with an 6/8 split after 26 games.
14 or 12 Team Championship with same 6/8 split as the Premiership or in the event of 12 the current split after 3 rounds of fixtures.
There would be a requirement for all teams in the top 2 divisions to be Professional. I have always believed the issue with the SPFL is the loosely applied Professional in the name. - These clubs would form a breakaway and the distribution of all sponsorship, TV monies would be amongst these clubs as it is with the 42 just now.
An annual consolidation would be paid to a new national league below each season.
The National league would have their own sponsorship and would be regionalised - Could be north, south, east, west there are loads of teams now in the pyramid system and this a bit lop sided as the their is no relegation from the highland league but loads of divisions feeding into the Lowland league. Regional champions would go into a promotion playoff with each other.
There would be promotion to the championship but the team coming up if not all ready full time professional would be required to become so. If they'd rather remain Part Time they don't get up. Colt teams would be able to enter the national league and get as far up as the Championship.
Ever since the Scottish football had reconstruction in the 1970s - the standard of football in general has fallen with far too many teams being defensive due to the risk of relegation and loss of revenue - in the old 18 team league young fringe players could be introduced into more games to assess their progress against more experienced opponents, even the Scottish national team suffered as a result- we lost all this when cash became everything for clubs
