Question for the tacticians.

M

Midfield General

Well-Known Member
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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No.

Stop a goal before thinking about a goal.
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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We won mate so the tactics were spot on
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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Could not believe we had everyone back! Same every game to many players in the box and when it does gou out the box the opposition get the ball has no one is there!!
 
We hardly ever keep a man up when the opposition get a corner which I find strange also.

If McGregor collects or the ball is cleared ,it gives the chance of a quick counterattack rather than slowing the play down letting them get back into shape
 
I think if you have a team and manager who are settled and have full trust in each other, yeah you can do that. But protecting a lead, and lacking an outright ruthlessness attitude, they will play it safe. I love Kent and Sakala, think they both get fans to their feet, both have pace to burn, but from half way, would either go one on one and score? Sakala prob have a go, score more than half the time. Kent, prob turn back at some point as his decision making is still needing worked on, maybe score half of the time again.

I don't think we should play with 2 deep midfielders either, but that is how we will be setting up, keeping the zero or something like that...
 
I reckon the chances are the ball will be headed clear. We should have players ready around our box to get the second ball.
 
Could be down to the keeper. If we had a keeper likely to come and collect a large % of crosses then leave players up for a quick counter.
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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Good point. We really dont play fast attacking football. Its all very slow and static. Beale will make a difference, hopefully.
 
Fergie used to put 3 on the half way line (Tevez etc) so the defending team had to have 4 back thus allowing them 5 attackers in the box or around the 18 yard box. There would be more space for the attackers but must have trusted his team.

Under Walter we had all men in our half and near the defending box. Makes it more crowded and less chance of a running jump.

Pros and cons of each.
 
Talktalk said:
We won mate so the tactics were spot on
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Yeah the points are the main thing but I still think we look vulnerable from corners and giving the opposition the opportunity to bring up their centre halfs and load up our box is not good for my old ticker.I think you will agree that the feeling after a lot of our games has been of relief rather than enjoying the win.Thats because we give up too many chances and are not yet clinical enough in taking our chances.
 
mark hateley said:
Fergie used to put 3 on the half way line (Tevez etc) so the defending team had to have 4 back thus allowing them 5 attackers in the box or around the 18 yard box. There would be more space for the attackers but must have trusted his team.

Under Walter we had all men in our half and near the defending box. Makes it more crowded and less chance of a running jump.

Pros and cons of each.
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Jose at Chelsea was the first I remember leaving three up. One through the middle and the two wide men right on the touchline round about the halfway line.
 
Gazzabear v2.0 said:
I think if you have a team and manager who are settled and have full trust in each other, yeah you can do that. But protecting a lead, and lacking an outright ruthlessness attitude, they will play it safe. I love Kent and Sakala, think they both get fans to their feet, both have pace to burn, but from half way, would either go one on one and score? Sakala prob have a go, score more than half the time. Kent, prob turn back at some point as his decision making is still needing worked on, maybe score half of the time again.

I don't think we should play with 2 deep midfielders either, but that is how we will be setting up, keeping the zero or something like that...
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I think the way to use the quick break would be if we win the ball from the corner don't play it into the feet of Kent or Sakala but over the top forcing their defenders to turn.It then turns into a foot race rather than having to beat the defender with the ball at their feet.
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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Our defending at corners this season is a Bombscare
 
Talktalk said:
We won mate so the tactics were spot on
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Hardly.

We were two up against ten men at home with over half an hour still to play yet failed to exploit the extra space and man advantage.

I’m pretty sure that wasn’t part of Beale’s gameplan.
 
WinkieWATP said:
Jose at Chelsea was the first I remember leaving three up. One through the middle and the two wide men right on the touchline round about the halfway line.
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It's a good tactic if you have smaller attackers who are capable of cauing a counter.

I.e. Pedro at 5'6 trying to mark say a 5'11 player is a clear disadvantage. However, having him attacking takes that disadavjatge away as the attacker becomes the defender.
 
I can't believe people are agreeing with this .

Percentages and margins are so important. You should never ever be thinking about scoring a goal when you are defending a set piece. Ten men or not.

IF we left someone up the park St Johnstone would then leave a fullback or a DM with pace. They wouldn't leave their tallest players up ffs. We'd be then taking players out the box and creating more space for their players in the box to attack. And we ain't exactly great at defending set pieces

By thinking about going 3-0 up at a corner were now only 2-1 up and their right back in the game.
 
Midfield General said:
St Johnstone are down to 10 men yet when they win a corner we still have everyone back to defend it.Would it not be more beneficial to leave someone or even 2 players up on the halfway line.Say Kent and Sakala for talking sake.That would mean the opposing team having to leave 2 or 3 players back and would allow us the opportunity for a quick break.Playing the way we do we are not taking advantage of having the extra man.
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Used to love this debate!
The number one priority is preventing a goal.
Everything else, the brilliant break away etc etc., is simply not important.
 
kilbirnie bear said:
We hardly ever keep a man up when the opposition get a corner which I find strange also.

If McGregor collects or the ball is cleared ,it gives the chance of a quick counterattack rather than slowing the play down letting them get back into shape
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Rule out McGregor collecting the ball .
 
kilbirnie bear said:
We hardly ever keep a man up when the opposition get a corner which I find strange also.

If McGregor collects or the ball is cleared ,it gives the chance of a quick counterattack rather than slowing the play down letting them get back into shape
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And if we concede a goal?
 
Gazzabear v2.0 said:
I think if you have a team and manager who are settled and have full trust in each other, yeah you can do that. But protecting a lead, and lacking an outright ruthlessness attitude, they will play it safe. I love Kent and Sakala, think they both get fans to their feet, both have pace to burn, but from half way, would either go one on one and score? Sakala prob have a go, score more than half the time. Kent, prob turn back at some point as his decision making is still needing worked on, maybe score half of the time again.

I don't think we should play with 2 deep midfielders either, but that is how we will be setting up, keeping the zero or something like that...
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That’s a different argument.
Extra DM allows the full backs to get, sometimes start, further up the pitch.
 
Id usually say leave players up for a breakaway but i dont think you can blame Beale for being worried or cautious when the opposition get a corner v our defence and keeper.

It was a poor performance so important just to get the points and forget it.
 
mark hateley said:
It's a good tactic if you have smaller attackers who are capable of cauing a counter.

I.e. Pedro at 5'6 trying to mark say a 5'11 player is a clear disadvantage. However, having him attacking takes that disadavjatge away as the attacker becomes the defender.
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But Pedro isn’t marking the man as such, he’s taking up space to stop the attacker having a clear run in marked.

That’s the theory behind it.

The issue is we have worked on our corners all week to be drilled. While we should be able to make a set up change as hoc im not sure the manager will think like that.

It is very rare that goals are scored from breakaways. Walters ethos was desl with that phase of play, stopping a goal. That’s it.
 
Gazzabear v2.0 said:
I think if you have a team and manager who are settled and have full trust in each other, yeah you can do that. But protecting a lead, and lacking an outright ruthlessness attitude, they will play it safe. I love Kent and Sakala, think they both get fans to their feet, both have pace to burn, but from half way, would either go one on one and score? Sakala prob have a go, score more than half the time. Kent, prob turn back at some point as his decision making is still needing worked on, maybe score half of the time again.

I don't think we should play with 2 deep midfielders either, but that is how we will be setting up, keeping the zero or something like that...
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Do we really line up with two DMs? One wasn’t very defensive when he scored the second.

Just because they play like that in Europe doesn’t mean domestically they are dms.
 
I know it's a cliche' but playing 10 men the opposition's most likely way back in is via a set-piece.

Also, I presume when we practice defending set-pieces during the week we don't have time to spend on different plans for scenarios like the opposition are a man down and we've got a two goal lead. It'll be this is how we defend set-pieces against Saints and what they like to do. I wouldn't want the players just making up the plan on the hoof.

So for me, it's do what you do. If you normally bring everyone back then that's what you do.
 
tazzabear said:
That’s a different argument.
Extra DM allows the full backs to get, sometimes start, further up the pitch.
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Yeah, understand that, but has that made us to reliant on the fullbacks, one dimensional and easy to defend against? Look at Tavs numbers, fantastic, so are Bornas, but when they don't get forward for whatever reason they get slaughtered on here and elsewhere. With the attacking options coming in, I think our attacking players will be given free reign to move and switch, prob means that players will fill the space that the fullbacks would normally run into. Rather than both bombing forward, 1 goes, 1 stays relatively speaking. We need to be more unpredictable and play between the lines rather than either the long diagonal from the CB or the 4 passes to get the ball from one side to the other. Cantwell, Tillman, Hagi, Kent and Lawrence (Arfield to lesser extent) are all players that in my opinion would be any combination of 3 plus a striker.
 
insanicdrunk said:
Do we really line up with two DMs? One wasn’t very defensive when he scored the second.

Just because they play like that in Europe doesn’t mean domestically they are dms.
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Yeah he was, if they find themselves in there multiple times a game fair enough, but they usually sit 25-30 yards out recycling ball side to side. An attacking player is breaking the line more frequently even if they don't get the ball.
 
HandsomeHead said:
Hardly.

We were two up against ten men at home with over half an hour still to play yet failed to exploit the extra space and man advantage.

I’m pretty sure that wasn’t part of Beale’s gameplan.
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We won mate 3 points , let’s get a settled team before tinkering
 
tazzabear said:
Used to love this debate!
The number one priority is preventing a goal.
Everything else, the brilliant break away etc etc., is simply not important.
Click to expand...
The problem has been we are not preventing goals we have lost 22 league goals in 23 games in the league many from set piece situations.Remember Porteus recently fkn Scott Brown last season.Would these players be even in our box if we had a couple of men on the half way line.
 
I seem to remember it was Walter who changed his opinion on leaving a player(s) up at a corner when he was assistant manager with Alex Ferguson at Man Utd.

I think the philosophy was/is, “At all costs, all hands on deck, don’t lose a goal”.
 
kilbirnie bear said:
Then it's down to the keeper and those defending in the box

One man kept up top is going to occupy 2 possibly 3 watching him.

It also depends where you are in a game I suppose
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I liken this whole discussion to crossing the road.
The first consideration is if there is traffic coming from the right.
If there is then nothing else matters.
If you concede the goal from the corner then, nothing else matters.
It’s the ONLY consideration.
Sure, you can make plans for what to do next but you need to execute plan “A” first and foremost.
 
When St Johnstone went down to 10 men - nothing seemed to change over the remaining 60 mins.

We were still comfortable in possession but not more so than we were 11 v 11.

The fact we never killed them off completely (with a third/fourth) is a slight frustration/concern. Similarly to the Killie game.

I’m sure Beale will share that frustration but to be fair, we did ring the changes during the second half which can disrupt the flow equally as much as bring fresh energy.

Long for day we put a game to bed by HT. Wednesday night will do fine though :))
 
Midfield General said:
The problem has been we are not preventing goals we have lost 22 league goals in 23 games in the league many from set piece situations.Remember Porteus recently fkn Scott Brown last season.Would these players be even in our box if we had a couple of men on the half way line.
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Maybes aye, maybes naw!
One thing for sure is we have less players in the box, so they do as well, there is more space for attackers to utilise.
Less chance of a lucky or unlucky deflection.
I don’t think you’d find many agreeing with the way to defend better is to have less defenders.
 
Said to my son yesterday at the game "why the hell are we putting all our players in the box when we should have at least one of our team in centre circle which would the have Saints covering back with at least two?".
For years now we haven't been able to play the advantage we have against 10 men.
 
Gazzabear v2.0 said:
Yeah he was, if they find themselves in there multiple times a game fair enough, but they usually sit 25-30 yards out recycling ball side to side. An attacking player is breaking the line more frequently even if they don't get the ball.
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Fair enough, I dont see him as being defensive yesterday, looking at his heat map he was near enough a box to box midfielder yesterday.
 
John MacKenzie said:
Said to my son yesterday at the game "why the hell are we putting all our players in the box when we should have at least one of our team in centre circle which would the have Saints covering back with at least two?".
For years now we haven't been able to play the advantage we have against 10 men.
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I agree with your last sentence. Less players in the box makes it easier for them to score as there is more room to run and meet the ball.

Out of interest has anyone saw the stats for goals scored on breakaways?
 
It's worth noting that even the managers mentioned here who have left players up the pitch at certain times have also defended with everyone in the box - Mourinho changed to that pretty quickly.

There's loads of good reasons for it, as have been mentioned. In recent games we've seen Sakala push forward and stay high up the pitch when defending corners. I might be wrong here, but I can't remember a breakaway goal from defending a corner under Beale - they're rare in general - but we've certainly conceded from at least one.

The ball, when cleared, doesn't tend to go very far. Even against 10 men, there's nothing wrong with a "better safe" approach.
 
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