Rangers being sued for £9.5m by Elite Sports (Hummel brand partner in UK)

AC_55

Well-Known Member
So this 13 page pile of nonsense and rage was really just that.

For the last time, People really need to do some quick reading into any situation such as this, rather than fly in two footed.
Without having any knowledge of company law, surely this optimism is a bit premature? Would we not need them to be wound up before the case falls? Even then could Hummel not just sue if they looked at this and thought Elite had a case?
 

Shooter McGavin

Active Member
It's Rangers, when, realistically, would Rangers ever be out of headlines; or any huge club for that matter?
Not seeing much from them in the headlines at this point in time whereas we seem to lurch from one big headline to the next.
If it's not King, it's a court case or a manager sacking or manager and players falling out etc.
it's constant at the minute. Not every big club has these headlines.
 

JMCK

Well-Known Member
Not seeing much from them in the headlines at this point in time whereas we seem to lurch from one big headline to the next.
If it's not King, it's a court case or a manager sacking or manager and players falling out etc.
it's constant at the minute. Not every big club has these headlines.
I get that, but whatever Rangers does or whatever affects it becomes bigger, more cataclysmic and so on. We've been through a great deal in the last decade, and just about getting off the ropes, it's inevitable that the recovery of the club was never going to be completely straightforward.
 
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El Bufalo

Well-Known Member
So this 13 page pile of nonsense and rage was really just that.

For the last time, People really need to do some quick reading into any situation such as this, rather than fly in two footed.

Them going into admin doesn't automatically make court cases go away. BDO successfully sued Collyer Bristow for £25m when the oldco went into admin.

If their claim is legitimate (given we've already lost a court case against Elite, then there's a decent chance it is) then their administrators will likely pursue it to claw back money for their creditors.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
So this 13 page pile of nonsense and rage was really just that.

For the last time, People really need to do some quick reading into any situation such as this, rather than fly in two footed.
That they go into administration changes only who is suing us.
If there is an opportunity to bring in money for creditors, the administrators will be duty bound to explore that opportunity.
 

FrazerK80

Active Member
One question here.
Can they base a claim on sales of the product?
Would cost of sales not influence this?
For example, Castore seem to spend a bit more on advertising than Elite / Hummel did.
Also, their investment in product development, stores and online seems to far outstrip anything done before.
All this would inflate the sales figure.
Actually, any loss to the manufacturer here is lost profit, not sales.
£9m plus in sales is not £9m in profit.
Elite already know the profit they would make from the sale of our strips - The profit of Castore is irrelevant and doesn’t appear to be what they’re asking for. so all they need is to understand the sales ie how many strips were actually sold and then they can calculate more accurately what they missed out on and out a more meaningful number into their claim. What our KC said is not incorrect re comparability of the two businesses, it is just a flimsy argument as to why Elite should not get access to sales figures is the point and the point which the judge agreed on.
 

FrazerK80

Active Member
So this 13 page pile of nonsense and rage was really just that.

For the last time, People really need to do some quick reading into any situation such as this, rather than fly in two footed.
Administration won’t impact this claim - the administrator (and possibly an eventual liquidator) will be duty bound to pursue this claim all the way to get as much money for creditors as possible. If anything it makes it worse for us as a commercially driven settlement is less likely albeit I still think the ultimate number won’t be anywhere near the number they currently have in their claim.
 

RangersEasyOK!

Well-Known Member
So this 13 page pile of nonsense and rage was really just that.

For the last time, People really need to do some quick reading into any situation such as this, rather than fly in two footed.
Someone needs to look up the role of an administrator before flying in two footed.
 

mart22

Well-Known Member
no offence mate but reading your posts in the past and current your in legal work

as i remember you thought the amount owed sports direct would be under 2 millions

so if money was owed to that fat slug was due wouldnt money be due to elite/Hummel
I've got no experience in legal work mate. I took a short course in contract law at one time. It covered the basics. And it was utter drudgery. Really soul-destroying stuff.
The worst case scenario is Elite has a strong case and we really will have to pay them 9.5m. However, I'm hopeful capacity to contract is taken into consideration. Rangers were ordered to stop performing the Elite contract by a judge because legally we didn't have the capacity to contract with them. The reason being we didn't allow Sports Direct to match the Elite deal. Sports Direct was contractually given matching rights in their original contract with Rangers. If Rangers didn't have the capacity to contract with Elite then a legal contract never existed between us.
Kinda like a stolen car. If you buy one in good faith and the police turn up and return it to its rightful owner then there's nothing you can do.
 

Bluebeard

Well-Known Member
I've got no experience in legal work mate. I took a short course in contract law at one time. It covered the basics. And it was utter drudgery. Really soul-destroying stuff.
The worst case scenario is Elite has a strong case and we really will have to pay them 9.5m. However, I'm hopeful capacity to contract is taken into consideration. Rangers were ordered to stop performing the Elite contract by a judge because legally we didn't have the capacity to contract with them. The reason being we didn't allow Sports Direct to match the Elite deal. Sports Direct was contractually given matching rights in their original contract with Rangers. If Rangers didn't have the capacity to contract with Elite then a legal contract never existed between us.
Kinda like a stolen car. If you buy one in good faith and the police turn up and return it to its rightful owner then there's nothing you can do.
Surely their lawyers would know this if, no disrespect meant here, someone with a Scotvec module in contract law like yourself knows it?
 

blu

Well-Known Member
because one company sold x amount of strips it doesnt mean another company would have sold the same amount of strips.look at how many strips were sold by castore and look at how many strips were sold by sports direct .you cant compare one with the other.Elite shouldnt be allowed to base their possible profit on another companys sales figure.
 

Awritenobad

Well-Known Member
Elite now in administration.

The administrators will examine whether spending the limited cash remaining in the business on a legal battle would mean a better or worse deal for the creditors.

Then they will take one look at our own recent record in court cases and think…






 

jft1840

Well-Known Member
I get that, but whatever Rangers does or whatever affects it becomes bigger, more cataclysmic and so on. We've been through a great deal in the last decade, and just about getting off the ropes, it's inevitable that the recovery of the club was never going to be completely straightforward.
Wow. Some perspective and common sense. It’ll never catch on.
 

Midfield General

Well-Known Member
If we are bang to rights in this our best move would be to try and come to an out of court settlement.Clearly if they are chancing there arm fight it but our track record doesent fill me with confidence.
 

Coop1872

Well-Known Member
Floors all yours…….
Search Chris Ronnie and Mike Ashley. Loads of stuff about them but here's a few articles.






It's probably just my cynical take on things though. Don't want to derail the thread.
 

bluetonic

Well-Known Member
Little over 5 months ago we were lining up in the final of one of the club footballs biggest competitions today we are without a manager, a huge court case hanging over our heads and an injury list the length of the M74.

But at least we showed the SPFL and Cinch who's boss.
Priorities I guess :cool:
 

fotze2

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Them going into admin doesn't automatically make court cases go away. BDO successfully sued Collyer Bristow for £25m when the oldco went into admin.

If their claim is legitimate (given we've already lost a court case against Elite, then there's a decent chance it is) then their administrators will likely pursue it to claw back money for their creditors.
Clawback money for themselves, you mean…
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Elite already know the profit they would make from the sale of our strips - The profit of Castore is irrelevant and doesn’t appear to be what they’re asking for. so all they need is to understand the sales ie how many strips were actually sold and then they can calculate more accurately what they missed out on and out a more meaningful number into their claim. What our KC said is not incorrect re comparability of the two businesses, it is just a flimsy argument as to why Elite should not get access to sales figures is the point and the point which the judge agreed on.
Very unlikely.
They can forecast but that’s as far as it goes.
My point re Castore was more to do with how they’re working out, guessing, their figures.
If Castore were spending more money on promotional activities they’d expect a bigger sale line.
That would be a fact so how can Elite rely on Castore sales to determine what they’d have sold?
 

keep_believin84

Well-Known Member
This is what I was hoping.

Whilst sales might be £10m, wouldn't it be the margin on £10m sales?

Let's say 40% margin, then circa £4m. Given they withheld around £3m.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not as bad as the headline but still as fucking annoying
I doubt margins would be up at 40% with the volumes of shirts we sell. I’m not in the know though.

Yep, hopefully that’ll be the case but it’s just another fūcking annoyance at our club of late!
 

Shooter McGavin

Active Member
I get that, but whatever Rangers does or whatever affects it becomes bigger, more cataclysmic and so on. We've been through a great deal in the last decade, and just about getting off the ropes, it's inevitable that the recovery of the club was never going to be completely straightforward.
so essentially your telling me to suck eggs, come on pal.
 

BobbyShearer55-65

Well-Known Member
As I understood it the contract we had with Elite/Hummel was dissolved by the judge during our court battle with Sports Direct.
How can we be accused of not performing a contract that was dissolved by a judge?
I guess a very simplistic way of looking at it might be:

I own a small shop on the high street and one day, you come around and decide to smash in all my windows. You are either charged with vandalism or I sue you for criminal damage / loss of earnings, etc - or both.

The next week, my business fails and enters liquidation. Just because the business is no longer trading, this does not mean the criminal / civil proceedings against you automatically disappear. They will still run their course under the eyes of the law and the case would be treated in the exact same manner, as if the business was still trading.

Ergo, a company's status at the time of an incident / occurrence, is the important factor here - not it's current trading status. (I think !).
 

FrazerK80

Active Member
Very unlikely.
They can forecast but that’s as far as it goes.
My point re Castore was more to do with how they’re working out, guessing, their figures.
If Castore were spending more money on promotional activities they’d expect a bigger sale line.
That would be a fact so how can Elite rely on Castore sales to determine what they’d have sold?
Ask the judge, he seems to agree it’s relevant information……I don’t think for a minute it will be a simple calculation but the base information about how many units were actually sold will 100% be relevant information as it indicates the potential sales volumes they missed out on. I’m not sure where you’re going with this, it’s not massively controversial to point out that actual sales will be a relevant objective input into any damages calculation - whether their calculation gets accepted, adjusted (or even outright rejected) will be determined by a judge.
 

FrazerK80

Active Member
Very unlikely.
They can forecast but that’s as far as it goes.
My point re Castore was more to do with how they’re working out, guessing, their figures.
If Castore were spending more money on promotional activities they’d expect a bigger sale line.
That would be a fact so how can Elite rely on Castore sales to determine what they’d have sold?
On the profit point, wording could have been better. Elite would already have good data on the profit margin they can expect on the sale of replica Hummel football jerseys for given volumes etc. Castore profit is irrelevant but that’s not what they were asking for.
 

ibroxbound

Well-Known Member
Ask the judge, he seems to agree it’s relevant information……I don’t think for a minute it will be a simple calculation but the base information about how many units were actually sold will 100% be relevant information as it indicates the potential sales volumes they missed out on. I’m not sure where you’re going with this, it’s not massively controversial to point out that actual sales will be a relevant objective input into any damages calculation - whether their calculation gets accepted, adjusted (or even outright rejected) will be determined by a judge.
I assume the profit will be calculated minus any commision that would have been made to Rangers for the sale of the items.
 

nublu2u

Well-Known Member
Seems to me we’ll be getting chased for damages. We, perhaps knowingly, signed a dodgy contract. Elite/ Hummel will claim they geared up for x years of shirt sales, set-up contacts with their suppliers, etc. Rangers will have given them an indication of expected shirt sales. Not sure why the actual sales matter, other than to validate information given to Elite/ Hummel.
 

RFC_Champions

I Make Stuff Up
It was King who was chairman when the £4m was paid to Ashley

Whilst I agree your statement is factual, im
not sure I get the point you’re trying to make.

So King headed a board who paid money to get rid of Ashley about 4-5yrs ago.

Now Park is the head of pretty much the same board who are still paying money to Sports Direct.

Our board, are still stumbling from one farce to the next.
 

LetsGo

Well-Known Member
How long was the initial 2018 Elite Sports Group deal for?
3 years and it was ended after 2. And at that point we were told that we were free and clear of Sports Direct and also Elite.

The fact is that we have now paid £8m to SDI and are on the hook for another £9.5m to Elite. But Bisgrove is doing a great job, right?
 

Alexmci

Well-Known Member
Too much glee about the chance of this happening.
Some folk are absolutely desperate for this to have merit.
 

blueballsbear

Well-Known Member
3 years and it was ended after 2. And at that point we were told that we were free and clear of Sports Direct and also Elite.

The fact is that we have now paid £8m to SDI and are on the hook for another £9.5m to Elite. But Bisgrove is doing a great job, right?
they want 9.5m for a single years loss.
mind you it says underperformance so perhaps sales were some way short of what we estimated them to be at the onset.
I cant see them being awarded anything like 9.5m.
But I do think they are entitles to compo for the early termination
 

Fife flyer

Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree your statement is factual, im
not sure I get the point you’re trying to make.

So King headed a board who paid money to get rid of Ashley about 4-5yrs ago.

Now Park is the head of pretty much the same board who are still paying money to Sports Direct.

Our board, are still stumbling from one farce to the next.
I was replying to another post which was part of an ongoing discussion The point I am trying to make needs to be taken in context. My point basically was that the board who signed the contract which this case is about still had some leftover issues from the previous deal at the time of signing and therefore didn’t have a totally clean slate
 

Kinghornloyal

Well-Known Member
they want 9.5m for a single years loss.
mind you it says underperformance so perhaps sales were some way short of what we estimated them to be at the onset.
I cant see them being awarded anything like 9.5m.
But I do think they are entitles to compo for the early termination
No they are claiming upto 2023. Story is that we had a 5 year deal with Elite and only 3 with Hummel. So even though we were ordered by a court to not use Elite for some reason they have been allowed to start proceedings against by another judge
 

the only way is up

Well-Known Member
That they go into administration changes only who is suing us.
If there is an opportunity to bring in money for creditors, the administrators will be duty bound to explore that opportunity.
And fund it if they lose? I wouldn’t have thought so. At worst there will be a small settlement, if anything at all.
 
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