Rangers - its the way you defend the charges that bothers me.

blueballs

Well-Known Member
This week's UEFA sanctions and all the fall out has really done ma heid, and I'm really wanting to dwell on it. But theres just this nagging thing that I couldn't really understand, cause I found myself in both the 'supporters are fully to blame' plus 'the clubs let us down' camps but wasnt sure why. Now I think I know; It's the processes that has got to me.

To be clear, I'm no looking for posts breaking it down to what others rightly feel is the basic premise - that as long as we dont sing sectarian songs then well be okay. Because I agree. I am fully in agreement. At the end of the day, no songs and no add ons means no problems. But I do wonder about other stuff.

I dont particulary agree with the chastising of the UBs. Not because they're not to blame, but I feel they're to blame for being part of the Rangers support, and we win, lose and share blame together.

But, for as much as I totally accept, as above, the faults with the fans, theres still this nagging sense of feeling let down by the club that I think can still be a legitimate point to raise.

For it's not what's got us here - again to clarify, that's the fans bad - but how we get out of here that genuinely concerns me. And for that, the fans must lead....but the club must support, and it's not good enough to say theres nothing they can do.

Lots of reference, time and typing in various threads explains about the charges Rangers faced from the St Joseph's match, for which we were found guilt and sanctioned- with the next step being stadium closure. Well, from a transparency and procedural view, I'd be interested in the club explaining when we were charged, when the matter was heard and what representation was offered.

Not that I think we could or should have defended the indefensible, it just strikes me that all the comments thus far are that we were charged, BF1 specifically mentioned, and now the seats will be empty.

In any parallel process, no matter how heinous the crime, you are entitled surely to answer for your conduct. So did the club, and if so who and when?

Because it's going forward that really highlights the concern. If we are reported, charged and punished - as seems to have been the case so far - without representation, then there must be an inevitability that we may play very soon to an empty Ibrox, and then if the process reoccurs, run the risk of being chucked out of Europe.

So, Rangers. It's the way you now represent us going forward that matters. If we as fans take full blame, support us in weeding out the problems. I'm not suggesting this will be either difficult nor hard, so back off those tempted to interject with the "how difficult can it be" comments. I get it.

But let's be honest. Come 2130hrs Thursday night, if not before, our haters will be reporting what they consider inappropriate conduct to UEFA. The narrative has begun, the report probably already written in pent up anticipation,

So at this point Rangers, if the criteria for a charge is simply receipt of a complaint, then you must be better placed to defend the fans. God forbid, if the support let us down then again I wont seek to defend the indefensible, but if anything else occurs and we are tasked to answer spurious or mischievous reports, defend us.

And in doing so, its legitimate to talk of stated cases, precedence, concerns over legitimacy of sources....and I'm not being naive to think UEFA will shut down Ibrox cause of an email from an unfamiliar email address and the like, but bear in mind the fans legitimate concerns over the conflict if interest at FARE, yet they still sit as arbiter of our conduct. Somehow.

So yes, the fans must absorb the blame and fix it. But this laizzez faire approach thus far to charge followed by punishment I can swallow (cause I can't think of any real mitigation nor excuse) but the line in the sand is drawn and the stakes set. Today was a barometer, and the fans passed. Fingers crossed, they will again o Thurs and going forward. And if they do, and you dont stand up to any unfair charges which will still be reported simply cause haters hate and wont care actually what we sing cause their agenda is set, you will rightly as a board lose me and others like me
 

Mondraker

Well-Known Member
What defence do you expect the club to give? Condone the songs? Say they weren't sung despite being video evidence?
I'd like them to gather the evidence that UEFA dont currently have that allows us to ask the pertinent questions regarding a Fenian banner by Celtic supporters and FAREs strange fascination with us and their links to our rivals which puts us at a disadvantage.

Maybe start there and see what comes out of UEFA.
 

ecossebear

Well-Known Member
There’s nothing to defend. It was loud and clear and indefensible. The “but what about Celtic” nonsense is so immature it’s unreal. I don’t want the club to “stand up” for sectarian singing. They have told us not to do it, so we don’t do it! It’s that simple. It’s UEFAs tournament and we play by their rules whether we like it or not. If we start getting picked on for one or two people singing banned songs then I agree we need to look at it as a witch hunt, but this particular charge we are guilty no doubt. Anyone watching the game knows we were but you still want the club to fight it?
 

Mbear

Well-Known Member
I'd like them to gather the evidence that UEFA dont currently have that allows us to ask the pertinent questions regarding a Fenian banner by Celtic supporters and FAREs strange fascination with us and their links to our rivals which puts us at a disadvantage.

Maybe start there and see what comes out of UEFA.
That banner was at an spfl game
UEFA don’t care about it
 

blueballs

Well-Known Member
There’s nothing to defend. It was loud and clear and indefensible. The “but what about Celtic” nonsense is so immature it’s unreal. I don’t want the club to “stand up” for sectarian singing. They have told us not to do it, so we don’t do it! It’s that simple. It’s UEFAs tournament and we play by their rules whether we like it or not. If we start getting picked on for one or two people singing banned songs then I agree we need to look at it as a witch hunt, but this particular charge we are guilty no doubt. Anyone watching the game knows we were but you still want the club to fight it?
Going forward, aye.

If we act or are acting together to properly fix this and get rid of the crap nonsense, do you seriously think theres not going to be copious reports of recurring singing, backed up by a YouTube video of a handful of daft drunk boys not catching on? Is it so far fetched to think that Thurs night there might be a stupid minority does something crazy. But does that then allow for more severe punishment but take no cognisance of the efforts made in the wider support.

So going forward, I'm simply saying let's not be naive to forget theres plenty would seek to do us harm so we need to really consider any future charges and the context behind them
 

ecossebear

Well-Known Member
Going forward, aye.

If we act or are acting together to properly fix this and get rid of the crap nonsense, do you seriously think theres not going to be copious reports of recurring singing, backed up by a YouTube video of a handful of daft drunk boys not catching on? Is it so far fetched to think that Thurs night there might be a stupid minority does something crazy. But does that then allow for more severe punishment but take no cognisance of the efforts made in the wider support.

So going forward, I'm simply saying let's not be naive to forget theres plenty would seek to do us harm so we need to really consider any future charges and the context behind them
If we sort the singing by the majority then it’s easier for us to defend ourselves if we are punished for a very small minority or if it becomes a witch hunt. But we’re not there yet and what we were charged for was deserved. If we manage to confine this to a few idiots and we still get punished for it then I will be the first to defend us and call for an enquiry.
 

SPRINGBOKS

Well-Known Member
I'd like them to gather the evidence that UEFA dont currently have that allows us to ask the pertinent questions regarding a Fenian banner by Celtic supporters and FAREs strange fascination with us and their links to our rivals which puts us at a disadvantage.

Maybe start there and see what comes out of UEFA.
Celtics fenian banner was at a league match which does not fall under uefa's rule.
 

RenfrewBear72

Well-Known Member
Our board done a lot of good to wrestle the club back and giving us Gerrard, but, as a paying fan I don't feel like they give a fu*k about us.

Motherwell away.
Hibs at hampden.
Killie away.
Hanging effigies.
Slated daily in the media.

The board / pr are instructed to put out a statement, it gets laughed at by the likes of Tom Irish, Spiers, Leckie, and Stewart, and the topic is dropped.

I got a ripping for it but we need to cut out the sectarian shite, at the same time the board needs to safe guard us from further targeting and attack as it will come. Our enemies hate us more than they love their own club. Something new will offend them. It will go to the ceptic fan chief of FARE. It will get pushed through UEFA.
 

Wilkinsvolley

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Going forward, aye.

If we act or are acting together to properly fix this and get rid of the crap nonsense, do you seriously think theres not going to be copious reports of recurring singing, backed up by a YouTube video of a handful of daft drunk boys not catching on? Is it so far fetched to think that Thurs night there might be a stupid minority does something crazy. But does that then allow for more severe punishment but take no cognisance of the efforts made in the wider support.

So going forward, I'm simply saying let's not be naive to forget theres plenty would seek to do us harm so we need to really consider any future charges and the context behind them
If there’s people seeking to do us harm hopefully they’re weeded out and banned.
 

AndythephotoDr

Well-Known Member
The club won’t defend these songs and addons because the club don’t want them sung in the ground these days. Rangers is a modern football club

I suppose it’s akin to many of our favourite pubs changing when smoking was outlawed and trying to attract a more family friendly clientele serving food etc, they have tried to move with the times and to still get money in.

Rangers are the same, the board want families to attend and feel safe, they want a great atmosphere that isn’t offended groups of people.

Many of the “traditional” type fans of many big clubs have been eradicated, hooligans and casuals have been stopped in the main, certain chants we used to hear have stopped due to changing of society.

There are plenty of people within our support who now accept these songs are a thing of the past and are actually indefensible now.

I have certain views for instance that to me a Fenian isn’t a catholic it’s someone who has Irish republican tendencies and support the IRA, I also don’t use the word Tim to mean catholic either to me it’s a Celtic fan.

Also with the abuse in the Catholic Church why is it wrong calling them out and saying FTP simply because of what he seems to accept in his faith

I also have certain support for the notion that the casual use of Hun means something other than Rangers fan and that it isn’t a level playing field as their chants are equally offensive if you took offence at everything but I guess we need to get our house in order first and accept that things won’t change unless more people other than Rangers fans got involved. Do the supporters of other clubs who are not catholic use the same words that Rangers fans are getting pulled up on? It’s a social issue.

Again though i still maintain its Rangers as a club who have every right to say what they deem unacceptable in their ground and if they want certain things stopped they should stop, if you can’t accept the will of the club don’t turn up to matches because the songs and chants are actually now costing the club money and reputation.
 

Chris the Bandito

Well-Known Member
Since Friday there have been no end of posts in a multitude of threads calling out the club or the board for appeasement, lack of leadership or not defending the fans.

The reality is they can't. There are certain things you can't defend publicly and come out looking good. Does anyone think the club saying "they're just as bad" or "it's not really racist, it's just sectarian" or "you're racism police are bigots" is actually going to help? Because those are the 3 defenses the board is being taken to task for not making.

Also, remember this isn't a dialogue. It isn't even a trial. Once it's been highlighted this is a sentencing hearing. When UEFA say we're going to close the ground or expel you from the competition, all the club can do in mitigation is try to comply with the rules and say they're working on it.

UEFA are an organisation which cares little for football and nothing for reason or fairness. They care about money and corporate sponsorship. Corporate sponsors don't like even a whiff of organisations like FARE screaming the R word. As much as we might think it's untrue or biased, it doesn't matter.

In the end any sort of mixed message is going to get us expelled from UEFA competition. It's a serious threat and it's happened before. I'm guessing plenty of the support nowadays have forgotten we never got to defend our one European trophy and it hurt.

There are folk in our support who took all those warnings about FARE, Dave King's appeal on the pitch, the Everyone Anyone campaign, the Follow with Pride broadcasts on the screens before every game, and decided nobody really told them they couldn't sing any damn thing they want. That somehow they were getting a nod and a wink to FTP it up. They're still pleading ignorance. That isn't going to cut it as a defence. They really need it spelled out very simply and clearly - no more. Any sort of mixed message and those folk will take that as a go ahead to get us punished again - there's a point where pleading ignorance and victimisation is just whining.

I think we need to take a step back. Do we want the club to defend this?

Some of our songs are frankly embarassing. Take UEFA out of the equation. Why does anyone want to sign FTP at a football match? It doesn't matter whether it's racist, it's plainly got nothing to do with football and doesn't exactly attract new fans. I'm not exactly the world's most pc person as my previous bans and closed accounts testify, but I cringe at some of the song book.

The default mentality of many seems to be fight because this is coming from the club's enemies. We should be looking at the effect it has on the club's friends. When they're embarrassed maybe we should take the hint. We should think more about the message rather than the messenger.

The aim of every song at the football should be to get the whole ground singing to encourage the team. There was a time when songs like the Billy Boys did that, but it doesn't any more. Times change, and the song book needs to evolve to survive. That's life - literally. There are plenty of fans who find it an embarassing anachronism. The best singalongs now are ESWF because the whole stadium can join in even if you came with your granny or your kids.
 

ChiefWahoo

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
I still can't believe there are people who refuse to see the issue here.
Absolutely nobody has attempted to defend the songs or ask that the club does.

We are asking that Rangers take the lead and ensure these rules are applied to every club in European competition as they have been to us.

Surely wanting a level playing field is the least we should expect?

We've ditched the songs and I have no doubt we will again. The filth across the city see nothing wrong with chants and banners about huns and orange bastards.
It seems to me that FARE see no issue either.
It's not 'whataboutery'.
We'll get our house in order.
How will FARE and UEFA deal with the next instance of sectarian chanting in Glasgow?

It won't be at Ibrox.
 

ShieldsBear

Well-Known Member
What defence do you expect the club to give? Condone the songs? Say they weren't sung despite being video evidence?
perhaps they could ask questions of the accusers?

Naw. That would be silly. Let's just sit back and let these shitebags come at us and our support taking free hits as they go.

the club should be taking pelters for this week.

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
 

ShieldsBear

Well-Known Member
Seven years ago we almost lost our club,let that sink in for a moment.
and those that stood by the club through the darkest of times are now thrown under the bus because that mob have decided they need to rock the boat? Is that acceptable?

None of our songs were an issue last season when we weren't a threat to them. What's changed?

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
 

sonowilliam

Well-Known Member
and those that stood by the club through the darkest of times are now thrown under the bus because that mob have decided they need to rock the boat? Is that acceptable?

None of our songs were an issue last season when we weren't a threat to them. What's changed?

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
I and many others stood by the club,the UB conduct their own behaviour as i do mine.

Rangers tell me to stop singing anti catholic songs,i do.

At the St Josephs game it was announced that FARE were present - Warning.
 

ShieldsBear

Well-Known Member
I and many others stood by the club,the UB conduct their own behaviour as i do mine.

Rangers tell me to stop singing anti catholic songs,i do.

At the St Josephs game it was announced that FARE were present - Warning.
FARE are present at every Rangers game. They are intent on attacking our fanbase and rather than question it the club have toddled along behind them and also attacked our fanbase. The club have rehoused everyone affected other than BF1 who have been banned. Fvcking shameful.

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
 

sonowilliam

Well-Known Member
FARE are present at every Rangers game. They are intent on attacking our fanbase and rather than question it the club have toddled along behind them and also attacked our fanbase. The club have rehoused everyone affected other than BF1 who have been banned. Fvcking shameful.

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
FARE havent attended every Rangers game.where are you picking that guff from ?
 

david1982

Well-Known Member
I'd like them to gather the evidence that UEFA dont currently have that allows us to ask the pertinent questions regarding a Fenian banner by Celtic supporters and FAREs strange fascination with us and their links to our rivals which puts us at a disadvantage.

Maybe start there and see what comes out of UEFA.
Rangers would look stupid doing that and, like it or lump it, would just attract the usual shitty media coverage.

We cant highlight other examples if they have us bang to rights. We need to clean our act up before we can go down that route.
 

Sensiblesteve

Well-Known Member
That banner was at an spfl game
UEFA don’t care about it
There’s readily available footage of Celtic chanting “ get the Brits out now “ and we are all off to Dublin in the green with add ins at euro games this season along with their PLO flags something they’ve been previously fined for and not a peep from anyone , that’s before we get to the missiles thrown too

FARE have attended the last 11 Rangers games that alone shows a targeted attack , this along with what we know about their past history should concern every Rangers fan as well as the club , there must be transparency over this whole process as it stinks of a group of individuals out to do damage to the club and it’s working
 

Steveger

Well-Known Member
Time we as a fanbase evolved, too much infighting and passing the buck, yeah it's not a level playing field, hasn't been for a while, it is what it is and we have to be smarter and not hang ourselves with our own ropes...
 

GF1872

Active Member
FARE are present at every Rangers game. They are intent on attacking our fanbase and rather than question it the club have toddled along behind them and also attacked our fanbase. The club have rehoused everyone affected other than BF1 who have been banned. Fvcking shameful.

Everyone, anyone except BF1.
How the fck do you question something your guilty of?! And are you honestly telling me you don’t think this has been coming for years cause we never got done last year.
 

hammer-time

Well-Known Member
They should absolutely be challenging the validity, and impartiality, of the accusers.
Of course, they should and should have been questioning why they in their multiple charges were charged with "illicit chanting and having illicit banners" for their anti-British racist pro-IRA banners and "up the Ra songs and chants but we have been tagged with the racist tag for a few words in one of our songs.

I wanted the club to question why we didn't get charged with illicit chanting but they did
 

hammer-time

Well-Known Member
There’s readily available footage of Celtic chanting “ get the Brits out now “ and we are all off to Dublin in the green with add ins at euro games this season along with their PLO flags something they’ve been previously fined for and not a peep from anyone , that’s before we get to the missiles thrown too

FARE have attended the last 11 Rangers games that alone shows a targeted attack , this along with what we know about their past history should concern every Rangers fan as well as the club , there must be transparency over this whole process as it stinks of a group of individuals out to do damage to the club and it’s working
totally agree and for me, Id question why they have only ever been charged with illicit banners and chanting for anti-British racist pro-IRA songs and banners but Fare and UEFA have tagged us as racists.

This racism tag doesn't sit well with me at all as its totally unwarranted and frankly a bare-faced lie about our club and support
 
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barrheadbear

Well-Known Member
Rangers can't be seen to condone religious stuff.

We might not like it but that's where we're at.
Why the hell would anyone expect Rangers to condone "religious stuff" as you call it - we are a bloody football club where the religious stuff should have no feckin place.

Rangers fans are not particularly religious, I bet a very, very small percentage go anywhere near a Church. The vast majority also do not hate Catholics, some might have good friends that are Catholic and depending on the size of the workplace most will interact each day with Catholic colleagues without giving their religion a second thought. However our actions inside a ground on matchday send out a different picture, that of a collective who absolutely hate Catholics, that of a support stuck in a different time (1690) when your religioun could really mean life or death for some.

We might think a few songs here and there hurts no one but that is not how others see us. Outside of the OF divide, Catholics who follow other clubs in Scotland on hearing our support do not leave a ground afterwards praising us for getting behind our team for 90 mins, they only hear the sectarian crap that to them speaks of hatred.

I think wrongly that the Club will take a back seat in this furore and hope the fans will self police. However for me the club should be proactive, come out all guns blazing and stipulate that any song that is sectarian/ Ulster related has no place whatsoever at Ibrox or elsewhere and anyone who cannot abide by this ban is not welcome. The Club should threaten removal of ST for life for anyone caught disobeying this.

The good name of our great football club has been blackened for decades by the scourge of anti-Catholicism, it is seen and heard on each and every matchday. We now have a chance to turn over a new leaf. I don't really care to much what fans of other clubs think of us, hate us for all they want, that is what football is about. However we all know deep down that the hatred towards Rangers runs a little deeper because our songs tar us all, each and everyone of us, as bigots, huns, etc. Stick solely to the Rangers songbook and over time we may even get some grudging respect.
 

HandsomeHead

Well-Known Member
That there’s been nothing from the club since Friday’s news is sadly typical and infers they see the problem as being solely down to bampots in the support being unable to desist from singing about fenians and f**king the pope.

By extension it also suggests they don’t see there being any wider agenda worth confronting, and that’s very disappointing.
 

RenfrewBear72

Well-Known Member
There’s readily available footage of Celtic chanting “ get the Brits out now “ and we are all off to Dublin in the green with add ins at euro games this season along with their PLO flags something they’ve been previously fined for and not a peep from anyone , that’s before we get to the missiles thrown too

FARE have attended the last 11 Rangers games that alone shows a targeted attack , this along with what we know about their past history should concern every Rangers fan as well as the club , there must be transparency over this whole process as it stinks of a group of individuals out to do damage to the club and it’s working
Where is the footage?
It's things like this we need upload to FARE as a collective.
When it falls on deaf ears then we take everything we have sent them and it's used against FARE.
Play them at their own game cause I promise you - we can fall into line, they can't.
 
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