Scottish Sun Article. Colt Teams In The SPFL Pyramid

Danny_1872 said:
I doubt very much that Elgin would object. The chairman Graham Tatters has often commented on how good it was for the wee clubs when Rangers were in the lower leagues and also how much of a travesty it was that Rangers were thrown out of the top league in the first place.
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Elgin were just a name but Tatters has spoken publicly about it before and didn't appear keen:

“I’m quite sceptical about it. I can only speak for myself at the moment, I don’t know how the club feels. We have a board of directors here and everybody has got an opinion.

“In my opinion, I don’t think what they are trying to achieve is going to be achieved.

“If you look at the Old Firm game on Saturday, Rangers had one Scottish player and Celtic had four.

“I don’t think that will change just because they get a colts side. They are giving us loads of criteria they will jump through, but I don’t think they will achieve what they are saying they will.

“There’s a steering company set up to look at it so we will see what comes up.

“We will treat it on its merits, I’m not daft enough to bury my head in the sand. We will sit as a board of directors and see where we go.

“The money won’t really help us being in the north of Scotland.

“To my club, receiving £15,000 or £20,000 isn’t the same as what it would be to a club in the central belt. They would be able to do a lot more with their money than I can do with mine.

“We pay a premium to get players to come up here, because people are travelling. To get quality players from the central belt, we would be competing with clubs already getting that money as well.

“It’s not going to change my mind at the moment. I don’t think opinions will change in League Two but I will need to talk to all the other chairmen.

“The proof of the pudding has been the games when they’ve had colts sides playing, in the Challenge Cup.

“They didn’t get the crowds they thought they would get. It’s not been as good as what it said it would be.”
 
I'm not sure on it.

I don't think it's right that we get the colt teams and others don't and I'm not sure that Robbie Crawford, Kane Hemmings, Fraser Aird, Andy Mitchell, etc really gained out of Division 3. I'd prefer outlr best youngsters were loaned to a higher level as we are seeing with Kennedy and Kelly.
 
cooprfc said:
I'm not sure on it.

I don't think it's right that we get the colt teams and others don't and I'm not sure that Robbie Crawford, Kane Hemmings, Fraser Aird, Andy Mitchell, etc really gained out of Division 3. I'd prefer outlr best youngsters were loaned to a higher level as we are seeing with Kennedy and Kelly.
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They still would be.
 
0028 said:
What am I missing here!
Why should we pay £3m to let our colts play in the bottom league?
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Because we would be jumping many leagues to enter the system and likelybremoving the ability for certain clubs to win the Challenge cup and their championships
 
cooprfc said:
I'm not sure on it.

I don't think it's right that we get the colt teams and others don't and I'm not sure that Robbie Crawford, Kane Hemmings, Fraser Aird, Andy Mitchell, etc really gained out of Division 3. I'd prefer outlr best youngsters were loaned to a higher level as we are seeing with Kennedy and Kelly.
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Our coaching staff have already said our yourh group learned more/developed more from the challenge cup run than they did playing other youths.
 
The Dude said:
They still would be.
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So are we then filling our colt teams with guys who aren't gonna be good enough for our first team?

Because Kennedy has a chance and he is in the Championship at 18. Kelly is in the Prem at 20 odds. Patterson 19 and playing in the Europa League.

I can't see how it benefits the ones who are gonna be good enough for us.
 
£1.5m for the benefits we'd gain is more than worth it

What happens when the colts gain promotion and end up in the championship for example?

It's one of the reasons, IMO, teams like Barca and Madrid have seen so much success with youth players and definitely something we should be aiming to emulate.

The increase in knowledge, skill and financial gain we stand to gain from it in the long term is worth virtually an unlimited amount of £. Not to mention the youth players we might acutally keep on to as they will be getting 1st team football in the colts that could then go for bigger money..
 
RoofeIsOnFire said:
Our coaching staff have already said our yourh group learned more/developed more from the challenge cup run than they did playing other youths.
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Aye that's accepted but my point is on the ones who are going to be good enough for us. The loan system is what we would use for these players so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

This all becomes irrelevant if the Colts team get up a few leagues of course.
 
Any game has to take place as the others i.e Saturday 3pm and if any of our fans wish to attend they are free to choose

We aren't going to take the same as a 1st team game
 
cooprfc said:
Aye that's accepted but my point is on the ones who are going to be good enough for us. The loan system is what we would use for these players so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

This all becomes irrelevant if the Colts team get up a few leagues of course.
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It develops those not good enough for our first team but good enough for others and get us better money.

The youth set up is part of our business.

Having control of our colts is better than loans as we can make them play same tactics, ensure the players we have high hopes for get the right minutes, play the right positions and tactics.

Loans do none of that.
 
cooprfc said:
So are we then filling our colt teams with guys who aren't gonna be good enough for our first team?

Because Kennedy has a chance and he is in the Championship at 18. Kelly is in the Prem at 20 odds. Patterson 19 and playing in the Europa League.

I can't see how it benefits the ones who are gonna be good enough for us.
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No, you're filling it with the boys who are out on loan at that level just now or are a bit further behind them in their development. A couple seasons ago Robby McCrorie was in L2 at Berwick, Kieran Wright is at Partick, Rhys Breen was there too, boys like Nathan Young-Coombes, Chris McKee, Tony Weston, Tyler Pasnik, The Hogarths, Jack Thomson who is at Clyde just now (L1), There are loads of kids playing regular competitive football would massively benefit.
 
The Dude said:
No, you're filling it with the boys who are out on loan at that level just now or are a bit further behind them in their development. A couple seasons ago Robby McCrorie was in L2 at Berwick, Kieran Wright is at Partick, Rhys Breen was there too, boys like Nathan Young-Coombes, Chris McKee, Tony Weston, Tyler Pasnik, The Hogarths, Jack Thomson who is at Clyde just now (L1), There are loads of kids playing regular competitive football would massively benefit.
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And the main difference is it will be all kept in house so we can continue to coach them to the best of their ability and not rely on the likes of Clyde to coach them which could actually hurt them more than help. Who with all due respect, if their coaching staff was as good as ours they probably wouldn't be in L1.

Not taking a jab at Clyde or calling them shite but it's the way it is.
 
BlueSeaOfIbrox said:
And the main difference is it will be all kept in house so we can continue to coach them to the best of their ability and not rely on the likes of Clyde to coach them. Who with all due respect, if their coaching staff was as good as ours they probably wouldn't be in L1.
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There's even the aspect of if we decide a player (lets use Jack Thomson) is to be used in a new position. We can't really phone up Clyde and demand they play him there. If it is in-house, we have the scope to do that, we can try players in different set ups and different scenarios. You lose that control with loan players.
 
SouthCoastLoyal said:
They could try and get the colts playing in the North West Counties Football League, it is the 10th tier of English football, then they can work their way up through the English football tiers.

When F.C. United of Manchester were founded in 2005 they had to start in the 10th tier.

The quality of football in the 10th tier of English football would probably be the same if not better than the quality of the Scottish 4th tier.
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I watch Ebbsfleet now and again, they were in the one below the proper leagues a few seasons ago which would be the 5th tier, the football was honking, so f uck knows what its like 5 below that.
 
cooprfc said:
Aye that's accepted but my point is on the ones who are going to be good enough for us. The loan system is what we would use for these players so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

This all becomes irrelevant if the Colts team get up a few leagues of course.
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A lot of the players will just be in need of experience in men’s football to toughen up and become physically ready, it’ll be a lot better for them to be coached by our staff and coached to the system that we play throughout the club.

The coaching and style of play throughout the leagues is with all due respect nowhere near our level, having full control over our young players and have them playing at a decent level of men’s football will definitely have its benefits.
 
The Dude said:
There's even the aspect of if we decide a player (lets use Jack Thomson for example although its) is to be used in a new position. We can't really phone up Clyde and demand they play him there. If it is in-house, we have the scope to do that, we can try players in different set ups and different scenarios. You lose that control with loan players.
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Exactly, even in old positions we obviously want patterson to be molded into the next tav and thus will be coached appropriately with tav tactics in mind. Sending him to x team on loan, he's going to learn %^*& all about how tav plays because those teams either don't, or simply aren't good enough to afford to play like tav.

Having patterson at another team playing in a fully focused defensive tactic he's not going to learn much when he gets stuck into Rangers teams and gets told to be far more offensive.

the benefits we stand to gain from a proper B team in proper football is immense and £1.5m is a drop in the water to make that happen. We will make that back and then some. Just think one single half decent player coached through rangers internally will make that back and the benefits will last forever.
 
RoofeIsOnFire said:
It develops those not good enough for our first team but good enough for others and get us better money.

The youth set up is part of our business.

Having control of our colts is better than loans as we can make them play same tactics, ensure the players we have high hopes for get the right minutes, play the right positions and tactics.

Loans do none of that.
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I accept your point about tactics but loans can easily, and are actually more likely to make us money.

Quite frankly, I'm not interested in developing players for Hearts and Hibs. And Rangers players will play at a higher level. I also feel it's good for guys like Kennedy or Kelly to get away from the comforts of Rangers and grow a bit living independently etc.

That's my main point.

I see some benefits but what I'm saying is that I don't think it will develop the boys who are good enough for us. They will be developed via the loan system higher up. It will help the weaker of our group find clubs though. I accept that.
 
BlueSeaOfIbrox said:
Exactly, even in old positions we obviously want patterson to be molded into the next tav and thus will be coached appropriately with tav tactics in mind. Sending him to x team on loan, he's going to learn %^*& all about how tav plays because those teams either don't, or simply aren't good enough to afford to play like tav.
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Aye there are so many wee aspects of it that all build up to make it vital. I always go back to the second challenge cup game the Colts ever played (v Stenhousemuir losing 3-1) and Craig Mulholland said after it that the players will have learned more in the 90 minutes against senior pros than they will in an entire season of playing Dev League fixtures.
 
People look at colt teams as being the difference maker in youth development. They're not. Colt teams are the end point in a youth development system that takes kids in at a young age and invests heavily in their training. If we're talking about colt teams then the discussion really needs to be about what happens in the 6 or 7 years before a young player becomes eligible for a colt team. The colt team itself is a finishing school and won't make up for poor youth coaching.

Then there's the issue of how far you let colt teams progress up the pyramid? Youngsters are not going to develop playing against Kelty Hearts or EK Thistle. The journey to Rangers first team doesnt start with an away game against Edinburgh City or a trip to Dumbarton. OF kids on loan in the lower 2 divisions have typically struggled. Even the ones with Championship experience don't always progress well. I've seen a fair number of OF loanees over the past decade and very few have impressed.

I have a dislike of colt teams from a football viewpoint too. Lower league clubs deserve better than being treated as fodder for old firm kids who typically struggle to make it into the first team. Fans don't want it and many would refuse to attend home games featuring a colt team. It makes a mockery of a league competition if you have a colt team finishing in the top 4 of their league and unable to progress any further.

Colt teams are not the magic bullet that cures our youth development ills. The best prospects will not develop playing in League One, Two or the Lowland League and those clubs deserve far more than being considered as the playground playmates of OF prospects.
 
cooprfc said:
I accept your point about tactics but loans can easily, and are actually more likely to make us money.

Quite frankly, I'm not interested in developing players for Hearts and Hibs. And Rangers players will play at a higher level.

That's my main point.

I see some benefits but what I'm saying is that I don't think it will develop the boys who are good enough for us. They will be developed via the loan system higher up.
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Most loans see us paying the bulk of the players' wages while they are away with no financial gain on the other side for use. Loan deals like McCrorie and Murphy and very much in the minority.
 
I understand why lower league sides find it egregious tbh. It was discussed in England recently as well and Man City et al faced the same backlash.

The argument from them is that, if big clubs don't trust the lower league sides to develop their players on loan, then those big clubs shouldn't hoover up so much young talent on packages the other teams can't compete with. Also, without the Colts, lower league sides often end up scooping up decent players for free that big clubs let go. If those same boys use the Colts team as shop window without ever joining another club, the parent club can benefit by selling them for a decent fee to the detriment of the smaller sides. Off the top of my head, if we could have stuck someone like Stephen Dobbie into the Colts and he starts banging them in, he probably never ends up leaving for Hibs on a free (and eventually Dumbarton and QOTS), we can probably sell him down south directly.

However, from a selfish perspective I hope it happens. It would be good for us.
 
The Dude said:
Aye there are so many wee aspects of it that all build up to make it vital. I always go back to the second challenge cup game the Colts ever played (v Stenhousemuir losing 3-1) and Craig Mulholland said after it that the players will have learned more in the 90 minutes against senior pros than they will in an entire season of playing Dev League fixtures.
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As I said it's a lifetime of benefits for a measly fee of £1.5m - something that will be repaid in one player sale. Not to mention the additional ticket sales every week for a lifetime.

The benefits we stand to gain are virtually unlimited and should not necessarily have a cost limit on it.
 
iaatpies said:
People look at colt teams as being the difference maker in youth development. They're not. Colt teams are the end point in a youth development system that takes kids in at a young age and invests heavily in their training. If we're talking about colt teams then the discussion really needs to be about what happens in the 6 or 7 years before a young player becomes eligible for a colt team. The colt team itself is a finishing school and won't make up for poor youth coaching.

Then there's the issue of how far you let colt teams progress up the pyramid? Youngsters are not going to develop playing against Kelty Hearts or EK Thistle. The journey to Rangers first team doesnt start with an away game against Edinburgh City or a trip to Dumbarton. OF kids on loan in the lower 2 divisions have typically struggled. Even the ones with Championship experience don't always progress well. I've seen a fair number of OF loanees over the past decade and very few have impressed.

I have a dislike of colt teams from a football viewpoint too. Lower league clubs deserve better than being treated as fodder for old firm kids who typically struggle to make it into the first team. Fans don't want it and many would refuse to attend home games featuring a colt team. It makes a mockery of a league competition if you have a colt team finishing in the top 4 of their league and unable to progress any further.

Colt teams are not the magic bullet that cures our youth development ills. The best prospects will not develop playing in League One, Two or the Lowland League and those clubs deserve far more than being considered as the playground playmates of OF prospects.
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The big issue is players taking the step from 16-18 through to first-team. The earlier coaching isn't so much the issue as that final step. That's been acknowledged publicly by the club.

The lower league fans (and clubs) are very hypocritical on it though. Clyde have no issue with having four Rangers players on loan at a fraction of their usual wages but god forbid Rangers actually look to have a Colt team.

I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I covered a game in L1 or L2 that didn't feature at least 2 or three Premiership loanees in each side.
 
The Dude said:
Most loans see us paying the bulk of the players' wages while they are away with no financial gain on the other side for use. Loan deals like McCrorie and Murphy and very much in the minority.
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Yip and the Colt team would see us paying their full wages no?

A player on loan impresses loan club and goes there permanently for a small fee.

Benefits to both but it's unwise to see it as some outstanding system. Very few of the boys who are good enough for us will spend much time in the colts.
 
The Dude said:
It would, so rather than paying 90% of it, we'll be paying all of it.
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So there's that to take into account financially plus the fact a player on loan in England, abroad or our Prem might get us a small fee. As might a colt player of course.
 
cooprfc said:
So there's that to take into account financially plus the fact a player on loan in England, abroad or our Prem might get us a small fee. As might a colt player of course.
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The sake of £50 a week isnt really worth killing the idea off. How many of our players on loan in England have we then sold for any profit? Alnwick left on a free, Rossiter and Holt too. Murphy, McCrorie and Doc all came back.
 
The Dude said:
The big issue is players taking the step from 16-18 through to first-team. The earlier coaching isn't so much the issue as that final step. That's been acknowledged publicly by the club.

The lower league fans (and clubs) are very hypocritical on it though. Clyde have no issue with having four Rangers players on loan at a fraction of their usual wages but god forbid Rangers actually look to have a Colt team.

I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I covered a game in L1 or L2 that didn't feature at least 2 or three Premiership loanees in each side.
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You won't find many people in the better European leagues agreeing with that statement.

If a player doesnt have at least a good grounding in the game and a decent technical ability by the time they're 16-17 then they're not going to suddenly develop it playing in the lower leagues where technical play is minimal.

As for covering games in L1 or L2 - I've watched an absolute ton of football from the Championship, L1 and L2 in the past decade. I've seen loads of OF and other top flight loanees. Very few have gone on to be good senior professionals. Jamie Lindsay got a move south and is doing reasonably. Stuart Findlay got his move to America and has played top flight for Killie. Danny Rodgers is now a top flight keeper. Daniel Harvie is at MK Dons.

Matthew Shiels was absolutely pish. Jack Aitchison is troubling the lower leagues down south. Aidan Wilson hasn't gone on to do anything. Sam Wardrop? Liam Burt? Joe Thompson perhaps?

Players aren't going to make the next step towards being a top flight regular playing against teams like Brechin City or Forfar.
 
Too many clubs in our league system are run along the same lines as a social club. No innovation, no forward thinking, just quite happy to roll along with their gates of a few hundred but still get a say in how the game is run in the country. Held us back for years.
 
blue barney said:
Too many clubs in our league system are run along the same lines as a social club. No innovation, no forward thinking, just quite happy to roll along with their gates of a few hundred but still get a say in how the game is run in the country. Held us back for years.
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How many current Scotland international players made their club breakthrough at Rangers or Celtic?

Aye. It's all the fault of the lower league clubs.
 
The Dude said:
The sake of £50 a week isnt really worth killing the idea off. How many of our players on loan in England have we then sold for any profit? Alnwick left on a free, Rossiter and Holt too. Murphy, McCrorie and Doc all came back.
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It's not mate. My response was simply to someone saying the colt teams would make us money and I said that the loan system might be better for that.

My main points against it is further up.
 
The Dude said:
Why should Scottish football be held back because Peterhead and Elgins' fans might be unhappy
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And the expression is MIGHT be unhappy. They think they will be, but when you look at some of the names who have played for colt teams in the past.

C. Ronaldo and Messi both appeared in lower league B teams. Are you honestly telling me if one of our youngsters playing in league 2 turned into a world beater that's the players of Brechin or the fans of Elgin would look back on that story as anything other than good?!? I'm sure there are some Portuguese and Spanish retired lower-league journeymen who are still propping up a bar proudly bragging how they got ripped apart by a teenage genius or managed to have him in their back pocket, and quite right!

But no. Our lower leagues seemingly are leagues run by nobody's for nobody's. Want more fans? No. Want more publicity? No. Want no money? No! Want a better quality of football? I think you know the answer.
 
Bangersbc said:
And the expression is MIGHT be unhappy. They think they will be, but when you look at some of the names who have played for colt teams in the past.

C. Ronaldo and Messi both appeared in lower league B teams. Are you honestly telling me if one of our youngsters playing in league 2 turned into a world beater that's the players of Brechin or the fans of Elgin would look back on that story as anything other than good?!? I'm sure there are some Portuguese and Spanish retired lower-league journeymen who are still propping up a bar proudly bragging how they got ripped apart by a teenage genius or managed to have him in their back pocket, and quite right!

But no. Our lower leagues seemingly are leagues run by nobody's for nobody's. Want more fans? No. Want more publicity? No. Want no money? No! Want a better quality of football? I think you know the answer.
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Ronaldo and Messi did not develop into world class players playing against teams with the quality of Brechin City or Forfar.
 
We had the young fella King on our last two benches when games where dead and buried yet we couldn’t even give the lad 5 minutes
why colt teams if we can’t give a young fella 5 minutes from a bench past two games
 
iaatpies said:
You won't find many people in the better European leagues agreeing with that statement.

If a player doesnt have at least a good grounding in the game and a decent technical ability by the time they're 16-17 then they're not going to suddenly develop it playing in the lower leagues where technical play is minimal.

As for covering games in L1 or L2 - I've watched an absolute ton of football from the Championship, L1 and L2 in the past decade. I've seen loads of OF and other top flight loanees. Very few have gone on to be good senior professionals. Jamie Lindsay got a move south and is doing reasonably. Stuart Findlay got his move to America and has played top flight for Killie. Danny Rodgers is now a top flight keeper. Daniel Harvie is at MK Dons.

Matthew Shiels was absolutely pish. Jack Aitchison is troubling the lower leagues down south. Aidan Wilson hasn't gone on to do anything. Sam Wardrop? Liam Burt? Joe Thompson perhaps?

Players aren't going to make the next step towards being a top flight regular playing against teams like Brechin City or Forfar.
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I think you've misunderstood the first point. I'm not saying that grounding isn't key, but that where we are falling down is players taking that final step. We do well at producing players at younger levels but cant get them to take that step from being hot shit at 15/16 to taking that step to being a first-team player.
 
iaatpies said:
How many current Scotland international players made their club breakthrough at Rangers or Celtic?

Aye. It's all the fault of the lower league clubs.
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There would be a hell of a lot more if we had colt teams!

Youth players getting to remain within our world class facilities, getting couched to our standards and tactics whilst getting tested against men at a competitive weekend weekly? That's how you churn our top quality professionals

But how could Peterhead possibly benefit from Scotlands youth getting better, Scotlands national team and top teams getting better, Scotlands coefficient getting better. Scotland s TV deal getting better. It surely means nothing to them and there's. Cause as it is Peterhead on this level playing field we have had for decades are just a couple of years away from really hitting their stride and challenging for the premiership title!
 
The Dude said:
I think you've misunderstood the first point. I'm not saying that grounding isn't key, but that where we are falling down is players taking that final step. We do well at producing players at younger levels but cant get them to take that step from being hot shit at 15/16 to taking that step to being a first-team player.
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Plenty of reasons for them failing to take that next step. Majority of them are outside of football.

But the point still stands. Our young players at 16/17 simply arent good enough. You get the odd exception, but it is the very odd exception.
 
Salamanca said:
Unfortunately this wont happen.
Bitter lower league scottish teams would rather their team went under than possibly help develop old firm youth players
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They should be told it's going to happen. What is the future of the Scottish national team - is it players coming through our academy, or is it someone who starts off at a club that won't get above the third tier? More likely the former and the sooner we our lads playing competitive football, the better (especially after they've missed an entire season of youth football because of COVID).
 
iaatpies said:
Ronaldo and Messi did not develop into world class players playing against teams with the quality of Brechin City or Forfar.
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They didn't but being exposed to competitive football rather than youth games in front of their parents is undoubtedly something that benefited their development. Messi made his debut in the second tier of Spanish football aged 16.
 
iaatpies said:
Plenty of reasons for them failing to take that next step. Majority of them are outside of football.

But the point still stands. Our young players at 16/17 simply arent good enough. You get the odd exception, but it is the very odd exception.
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So lets not pursue something we think can make them better because it might upset Montrose?
 
Bangersbc said:
There would be a hell of a lot more if we had colt teams!

Youth players getting to remain within our world class facilities, getting couched to our standards and tactics whilst getting tested against men at a competitive weekend weekly? That's how you churn our top quality professionals

But how could Peterhead possibly benefit from Scotlands youth getting better, Scotlands national team and top teams getting better, Scotlands coefficient getting better. Scotland s TV deal getting better. It surely means nothing to them and there's. Cause as it is Peterhead on this level playing field we have had for decades are just a couple of years away from really hitting their stride and challenging for the premiership title!
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Absolutely no evidence that playing against Brechin would make Matthew Shiels or Liam Burt a better footballer. How many Scotland international players in the current squad played lower league football?

1? Andrew Robertson? Any more?

We've seen loads of kids on loan in the lower leagues. Almost none of them have progressed to be good players.
 
The Dude said:
So lets not pursue something we think can make them better because it might upset Montrose?
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Partly yes. Lower league clubs deserve better.

But more significantly - lets not pursue it because there's absolutely no evidence that lower league loans have worked in Scotland. Lets invest the money in proper youth development and produce kids who are going to go on loan to play better than Brechin or Elgin City.
 
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