Taking the knee

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It's been done for about a year, I can't imagine many expected it to "work" in that amount of time to be honest.

I find the way you frame and questions a bit silly, you just latch bit chunks of different things on, it's a really convoluted way to have a conversation, you are making points against points I haven't even made, take it up with the folks who made them seems the simple suggestion, I am not going to speak on their behalf
I can't believe taking the knee hasn't ended hundreds of years of racial abuse yet. It must be a failure and we should all move on.
 
Isn't that the implication?

What did you mean by saying have a look around, look at who's booing, bet they do the red hand salute etc please explain. No backtracking.
I think after your reply to me bringing Brexit into the debate that it would be utterly pointless me trying to explain anything to you.
 
I've seen 100 people explain why they boo, and 1,000 explain that the red hand is not a Nazi salute.
Doesn't make any of the 3 of them sensible ideas at Ibrox or any other football stadium.

Mainly because, the average person on the street worldwide, doesn't sit waiting for explanations from footballers or football fans.
Should I shout that at you? Or is hypocrisy your go to reaction?

It wasn't hypocritical in all honesty, it just seems that they have explained why they do it and it isn't sinking in with you given you said

"What it represents to the wider world might be what I disagree with"

The players have explained what it represents, it represents an act of a want for equality, which very much IS a sensible idea in Ibrox, or any other football stadium, unless you are anti equality.
 
It's been done for about a year, I can't imagine many expected it to "work" in that amount of time to be honest.

I find the way you frame and questions a bit silly, you just latch bit chunks of different things on, it's a really convoluted way to have a conversation, you are making points against points I haven't even made, take it up with the folks who made them seems the simple suggestion, I am not going to speak on their behalf
You mean the way people frame questions like "oh so you think goldson is a Marxist" when it's clear no one does.

I frame questions in a manner so it produces a clear answer which can't be danced around. So the zaha example, either we're both wrong or both right. If you think I'm wrong but he's not you're a racist. That's why I frame it in such a fashion.

How long should we give it?

We certainly didn't give show racism the red card this amount of coverage and repeated gestures. It was done a couple times per season if I remember right.

Do you think people who would otherwise pay attention to the knee will go "what's this? Show racism the red card? Not for me, it's a knee or nothing" get real.
 
I think after your reply to me bringing Brexit into the debate that it would be utterly pointless me trying to explain anything to you.
I thought it might be. That's a common response.

It's good to know what you think of your fellow rangers fans. Let's hope no one on here does the red hand salute, they might not be worthy of your superior thoughts.
 
How long should we give it?

No issue with it remaining indefinitely personally, because it is a process the players see as part of a need for systemic change - systemic change occurs when change reaches all or most parts of a system

all or MOST PARTS. no one has ever for a second doubted there would be individuals who would dispute such movement, I am delighted to see the players simply looking to disregard and ignore them and continuing with a cause they as a collective clearly feel they want to proceed with.
 
"It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?" - G20G72Bear

- I'm not saying you are a racist for disagreeing with taking the knee. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

- The prominent black players you mention aren't booing others for taking the knee. I also doubt most of them will be at Ibrox on Saturday.

- Zaha is clearly not racist. No one has implied this. This is you being disingenuous.

- And on issues like this? Yes, your opinion absolutely is less important than that of the people facing racism. That this has to be explained to you in embarrassing.
No ones opinion is less important than anyone elses. This hierarchy of importance is a driver of racist attitudes. We are chasing equality or we're not. We can't pick and choose. This stupid attitude is exactly why nothing will progress. You know nothing about me and know nothing of where I've lived or worked yet you want to presume I'm white and therefore should be shooshed.

Zaha shares opinions of those on here who have been called racist. So either both are racist or both aren't. Unless you want to bring your ridiculous racial hierarchy into this one too.

Those black players are being even more symbolically against the knee by standing when everyone else is taking it. So to spin it back on you, how do you suggest the rangers fans unhappy with this gesture make their feelings known without booing?
 
No ones opinion is less important than anyone elses. This hierarchy of importance is a driver of racist attitudes. We are chasing equality or we're not. We can't pick and choose. This stupid attitude is exactly why nothing will progress. You know nothing about me and know nothing of where I've lived or worked yet you want to presume I'm white and therefore should be shooshed.

Zaha shares opinions of those on here who have been called racist. So either both are racist or both aren't. Unless you want to bring your ridiculous racial hierarchy into this one too.

Those black players are being even more symbolically against the knee by standing when everyone else is taking it. So to spin it back on you, how do you suggest the rangers fans unhappy with this gesture make their feelings known without booing?

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No issue with it remaining indefinitely personally, because it is a process the players see as part of a need for systemic change - systemic change occurs when change reaches all or most parts of a system

all or MOST PARTS. no one has ever for a second doubted there would be individuals who would dispute such movement, I am delighted to see the players simply looking to disregard and ignore them and continuing with a cause they as a collective clearly feel they want to proceed with.
Do you think anyone would boo if they stood for justice and it was announced?

No idea why you've highlighted those points. Are you implying the UK is systematically racist? I'd love you to show me some of this.
 
People are clearly talking about racist attitudes, pointing out the ongoing racism our players endure and specifically the aims of the players choosing to take the knee.

The barrier to it making a difference appears to be people doing everything in their power to deflect the specified message our own players have stated they are sending with the gesture in order to conflate things and attach it to something else in order to villify it or subdue the message they are openly trying to send.

When folk on here, having been repeatedly shown the quotes from our players on why they are doing it, still persist with putting it down because of how they want to keep it pinned to a more controversial movement specifically in order to argue it shouldn't be supported then I think the problem is quite obviously with what folk want this debate to be about and not what it should be about. That's a choice, not something inflicted on them.

Debate about the best way to tackle racism can be had, but it's not exclusive nor need it be exclusive to opening eyes to the bottom line.

Our players take the knee in the name of racial equality alone and in order to continue to highlight the problem - that's it, nothing else. We can support them in that while the other debates around how we tackle it go on or not.
Good point, well here's an idea. It's fair to say most of this is coming from social media sites from faceless people all over the world.

So how about people organise a huge worldwide boycott of their hatefilled platforms. When the share prices drop, believe me, they will have something in place.

The poison these sites have caused is up there with the goebels school of nazi propaganda. Time they were reigned in, not by a meaningless boycott over a weekend by media and football clubs

There is rules on here which people end up banned for. Why is it not the case for many of these platforms?
 
Do you think anyone would boo if they stood for justice and it was announced?

No idea why you've highlighted those points. Are you implying the UK is systematically racist? I'd love you to show me some of this.
Not sure TBH, don't really care either. I find those who threaten to boo, actually boo or "respect those who boo" an Equality movement sadly hilarious, I would expect booing it will simply see those who partake in it all the more determined to keep doing it, rather than consciously go out their way to change it, given it highlights WHY they do it.

Who said anything even remotely like that? The players have made mention of this being an equality movement
 
would they boo another gesture - probably not, tho from the sounds of this thread a lot would tie it to something they felt they could boo

but the players have chosen this action
effectively what you are saying is "fight racism but do it in a way that i like"
which doesn't help at all
Credit to another poster for this but it's very telling that there are supposed Rangers supporters who would rather have stood with Kudela than knelt with Lacazette.
 
Good point, well here's an idea. It's fair to say most of this is coming from social media sites from faceless people all over the world.

So how about people organise a huge worldwide boycott of their hatefilled platforms. When the share prices drop, believe me, they will have something in place.

The poison these sites have caused is up there with the goebels school of nazi propaganda. Time they were reigned in, not by a meaningless boycott over a weekend by media and football clubs

There is rules on here which people end up banned for. Why is it not the case for many of these platforms?
I couldn't agree more on that. In fact, it'd be no skin off my nose if they shut some of these platforms down altogether until they found better ways to take responsibility and manage what folk are able to post.

Easy for me to say as someone who's not on Twitter, FB, etc I suppose.
 
Do you think anyone would boo if they stood for justice and it was announced?

No idea why you've highlighted those points. Are you implying the UK is systematically racist? I'd love you to show me some of this.
It never has been in the uk, but some are determined to prove different.

I'm trying to remember the times we have had separate cafes or people having to sit at the back of a bus. In fact, maybe some should check out the stories on black GI's who when stationed in the uk enjoyed many freedoms that they didnt have back in their own country and this is the 1940's. Hardly a bastion of racism.
 
Has taking the knee worked? Has highlighting every troll on social media worked? Or has it emboldened actual racists? I think the latter.

It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?

It's worked because it's kept the story on the front page. That's the purpose. To maintain the discussion, create debate and to educate. It's a long process to change minds but it must start somewhere.
 
Not sure TBH, don't really care either. I find those who threaten to boo, actually boo or "respect those who boo" an Equality movement sadly hilarious, I would expect booing it will simply see those who partake in it all the more determined to keep doing it, rather than consciously go out their way to change it.

Who said anything even remotely like that? The players have made mention of this being an equality movement
You don't care? That's the whole Crux of this discussion! Change the gesture, no one would boo, so why not change it. Do you genuinely think in the current climate that the racism stuff will disappear from media if the taking the knee is ditched?

You've spoken about most or all systems being changed. It was a weird point I thought but thought I'd address it.
 
Show racism the red card never worked?

What about players like wilf zaha who disagree with the knee gesture? Are they wrong? Is he racist because my opinion mirrors mine exactly

I doubt Zaha would go to a game and disrespect anyone doing it by booing. There in lies the difference.

A lot of mental gymnastics going on here to try and justify this nonsense all with the knowledge that it will happen on Saturday, rather than just accept these people don’t deserve to be in the stadium and don’t deserve the success these players are bringing them.
 
No ones opinion is less important than anyone elses. This hierarchy of importance is a driver of racist attitudes. We are chasing equality or we're not. We can't pick and choose. This stupid attitude is exactly why nothing will progress. You know nothing about me and know nothing of where I've lived or worked yet you want to presume I'm white and therefore should be shooshed.

Zaha shares opinions of those on here who have been called racist. So either both are racist or both aren't. Unless you want to bring your ridiculous racial hierarchy into this one too.

Those black players are being even more symbolically against the knee by standing when everyone else is taking it. So to spin it back on you, how do you suggest the rangers fans unhappy with this gesture make their feelings known without booing?
Holy shit.

You believe your voice is as important as the people who are experiencing racism.

This whole afternoon has been wasted arguing with a crank.

You are unhinged mate.

Best of luck to you, Martin Luther Bear.
 
It wasn't hypocritical in all honesty, it just seems that they have explained why they do it and it isn't sinking in with you given you said

"What it represents to the wider world might be what I disagree with"

The players have explained what it represents, it represents an act of a want for equality, which very much IS a sensible idea in Ibrox, or any other football stadium, unless you are anti equality.
Did you read "what I said"?
Because you've just completely contradicted yourself again.
Probably in the hope that I might do the same and revert from my sensible stance that anyone booing our players needs to take a good look at themselves.

The wider world has no idea what our players explained, who they explained it to, or why they are taking the knee.

If they see them on TV, the wider world may believe they are promoting political ideologies.
Again, I've heard 100 people explain why they do a red hand salute at Ibrox, and it's perfectly understandable to me.

But to anyone who hasn't spoke to them, it's a horrible act and a Nazi salute.

It is therefor something, no responsible person should be doing.

How anyone can "back" one side of that argument and not the other has me scratching my head and no amount of CAPS locks or bold writing makes either of the 2 actions any different in the grand scheme of things.
 
It never has been in the uk, but some are determined to prove different.

I'm trying to remember the times we have had separate cafes or people having to sit at the back of a bus. In fact, maybe some should check out the stories on black GI's who when stationed in the uk enjoyed many freedoms that they didnt have back in their own country and this is the 1940's. Hardly a bastion of racism.
The UK has one of the highest if not thee highest rate of interracial marriage rates in the world.

The issue we have is a downtrodden lower class who are being further marginalised with all the Covid crap and the coming economic fallout. How do the politicians deal with it. Get behind these campaigns about racism or transphobia, get people argueing over unimportant stuff (kneeing Vs standing, should we have different pronouns etc) whilst the economy is ruined and a huge wealth transfer to the top 1% has happened in front of our eyes.

Classic divide and conquer tactics, I just can't believe people still fall for it.
 
You don't care? That's the whole Crux of this discussion! Change the gesture, no one would boo, so why not change it. Do you genuinely think in the current climate that the racism stuff will disappear from media if the taking the knee is ditched?

You've spoken about most or all systems being changed. It was a weird point I thought but thought I'd address it.

No. I don't care or have any form of respect whatsoever for those who are going to boo, or "respect those who boo" (ha) the movement given how often the players have explained why they do it, they have been clear in why do it. I am totally fine with them not ditching it because people don't want to understand why they do it. I mean you can't educate Pork.....or in this case Gammon right

You addressed a point I hadn't even made, you have attempted to do that a few times now. I talk about WHAT IS not these turgid "but are you saying" and "what about if" scenarios
 
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It's worked because it's kept the story on the front page. That's the purpose. To maintain the discussion, create debate and to educate. It's a long process to change minds but it must start somewhere.
If SRTRC had been done every week, spoken about before, during and after every game for over a year, would that or any other gesture have had a different impact? Of course not.

The media/politicians dictate what stays on the front page, not the gesture.
 
Hopefully we just get a song going during it and and drowns out any of the unstoppable morons booing.
 
I doubt Zaha would go to a game and disrespect anyone doing it by booing. There in lies the difference.

A lot of mental gymnastics going on here to try and justify this nonsense all with the knowledge that it will happen on Saturday, rather than just accept these people don’t deserve to be in the stadium and don’t deserve the success these players are bringing them.
Who are all these racists you talk of? Is it many thousands? Is it this massive white supremacist movement that to my knowledge has never existed in the uk or are we talking about very few people here.

As I said, no point coming on here and shouting the odds, tell them to f**k up, but in no way boo them back.
 
No ones opinion is less important than anyone elses. This hierarchy of importance is a driver of racist attitudes. We are chasing equality or we're not. We can't pick and choose. This stupid attitude is exactly why nothing will progress. You know nothing about me and know nothing of where I've lived or worked yet you want to presume I'm white and therefore should be shooshed.

Zaha shares opinions of those on here who have been called racist. So either both are racist or both aren't. Unless you want to bring your ridiculous racial hierarchy into this one too.

Those black players are being even more symbolically against the knee by standing when everyone else is taking it. So to spin it back on you, how do you suggest the rangers fans unhappy with this gesture make their feelings known without booing?

Send a politely worded letter to the club setting out where the players are going wrong, how their anti-racism protest is itself in fact racism, why you are concerned about how this will all lead to white men being put in a gulag, and explaining how the hierarchy of importance is driving racist attitudes.

Maybe include your season ticket number and reference to what seat you sit in so that the club know you're serious.
 
Credit to another poster for this but it's very telling that there are supposed Rangers supporters who would rather have stood with Kudela than knelt with Lacazette.

Honestly, if the Kamara thing had happened to another clubs player you’d have had a group here claiming Kudela shouldn’t be punished because there’s no concrete evidence or audio proof of him having said what he did.
 
I doubt Zaha would go to a game and disrespect anyone doing it by booing. There in lies the difference.

A lot of mental gymnastics going on here to try and justify this nonsense all with the knowledge that it will happen on Saturday, rather than just accept these people don’t deserve to be in the stadium and don’t deserve the success these players are bringing them.
Who decides who deserves to be in the stadium?

What about those who smoke in the toilets? What about those who take coke?
What about those who say f bs in the super rangers songs?
Don't think there would be many left if you kept that list going.

You've clearly not read many of my previous posts so I'll clarify. I don't boo, I never will. I disagree with the gesture and I understand why people boo, but I disagree with them doing it. There is no avenue for fans to voice their concerns with this gesture so it will inevitably lead to boos.
 
Did you read "what I said"?
Because you've just completely contradicted yourself again.
Probably in the hope that I might do the same and revert from my sensible stance that anyone booing our players needs to take a good look at themselves.

The wider world has no idea what our players explained, who they explained it to, or why they are taking the knee.

If they see them on TV, the wider world may believe they are promoting political ideologies.
Again, I've heard 100 people explain why they do a red hand salute at Ibrox, and it's perfectly understandable to me.

But to anyone who hasn't spoke to them, it's a horrible act and a Nazi salute.

It is therefor something, no responsible person should be doing.

How anyone can "back" one side of that argument and not the other has me scratching my head and no amount of CAPS locks or bold writing makes either of the 2 actions any different in the grand scheme of things.

I did read what you said.

Your perception of the "wider world" is widely of the mark in all honesty, if there was any kind of truth in what you are saying global brands like Arsenal, Man City, Man United, Chelsea who pander to industries all over the world for sponsorship would have discouraged their players from doing it months ago if it caused such brand damage.

You are writing a narrative and attaching it to this situation you feel is true rather than is true.

I reckon Rangers will be doing alrite short, medium and long term if our players take part.
 
Who are all these racists you talk of? Is it many thousands? Is it this massive white supremacist movement that to my knowledge has never existed in the uk or are we talking about very few people here.

As I said, no point coming on here and shouting the odds, tell them to f**k up, but in no way boo them back.

Away back and greet over England. And where is the word “racist” even used in the quoted post?
 
Holy shit.

You believe your voice is as important as the people who are experiencing racism.

This whole afternoon has been wasted arguing with a crank.

You are unhinged mate.

Best of luck to you, Martin Luther Bear.
Have I never experienced racism? Do you know this? Are you assuming stuff again?

And again no, if we want equality, we don't have a hierarchy of opinions. That's not how it works. I can't comment on the impact abuse will have on someone else, regardless of their skin colour, I don't view the world through the prism of race unlike people like you who.
 
Who decides who deserves to be in the stadium?

What about those who smoke in the toilets? What about those who take coke?
What about those who say f bs in the super rangers songs?
Don't think there would be many left if you kept that list going.

You've clearly not read many of my previous posts so I'll clarify. I don't boo, I never will. I disagree with the gesture and I understand why people boo, but I disagree with them doing it. There is no avenue for fans to voice their concerns with this gesture so it will inevitably lead to boos.
Comparing that to smoking in the toilets is next level stupidity. But to answer your question, the club will decide, just as the club have decided fans bringing banned songs back are no longer welcome at Ibrox.

Anyway the above post is concrete evidence you’re no longer worth discussing it with.
 
If SRTRC had been done every week, spoken about before, during and after every game for over a year, would that or any other gesture have had a different impact? Of course not.

The media/politicians dictate what stays on the front page, not the gesture.

What impact are you expecting a gesture to make - it's accumulative; a problem isn't solved overnight. The fact it is being discussed shows it is having an effect.

Incidentally, why do you keep referencing Zaha - why is his opinion of more relevance to you than Tav, Goldson, Kamara...?
 
No. I don't care or have any form of respect whatsoever for those who are going to boo, or "respect those who boo" (ha) the movement given how often the players have explained why they do it, they have been clear in why do it. I am totally fine with them not ditching it because people don't want to understand why they do it. I mean you can't educate Pork.....or in this case Gammon right

You addressed a point I hadn't even made, you have attempted to do that a few times now. I talk about WHAT IS not these turgid "but are you saying" and "what about if" scenarios
Your post a few back where you highlighted certain sections spoke of systems. Have you lost the plot?

And wtf are you on about respect those who boo? Do you realise what quotes are for in text?

Have a word ffs, you've gone off on one here
 
Send a politely worded letter to the club setting out where the players are going wrong, how their anti-racism protest is itself in fact racism, why you are concerned about how this will all lead to white men being put in a gulag, and explaining how the hierarchy of importance is driving racist attitudes.

Maybe include your season ticket number and reference to what seat you sit in so that the club know you're serious.
Brilliant will do.

The hilarious thing about this is you have no idea how telling the last paragraph is on your mindset. Enablers like you are the reason we look at history books and wonder why ordinary people allowed stuff to happen.
 
Have I never experienced racism? Do you know this? Are you assuming stuff again?

And again no, if we want equality, we don't have a hierarchy of opinions. That's not how it works. I can't comment on the impact abuse will have on someone else, regardless of their skin colour, I don't view the world through the prism of race unlike people like you who.
Genuinely insane.

It's kind of beautiful to watch.
 
Comparing that to smoking in the toilets is next level stupidity. But to answer your question, the club will decide, just as the club have decided fans bringing banned songs back are no longer welcome at Ibrox.

Anyway the above post is concrete evidence you’re no longer worth discussing it with.
Good, you've contributed nothing.

Good to know we're all a bunch of sensetive souls though. It'll be interesting how the next old firm game goes without celtic players getting any abuse.
 
The UK has one of the highest if not thee highest rate of interracial marriage rates in the world.

The issue we have is a downtrodden lower class who are being further marginalised with all the Covid crap and the coming economic fallout. How do the politicians deal with it. Get behind these campaigns about racism or transphobia, get people argueing over unimportant stuff (kneeing Vs standing, should we have different pronouns etc) whilst the economy is ruined and a huge wealth transfer to the top 1% has happened in front of our eyes.

Classic divide and conquer tactics, I just can't believe people still fall for it.
Believe me mate, I've read on here people who have classed people trying to get social housing described as vermin, considering I'm on the list myself, it was more than insulting.

You see the other digs at people who come from possil or other deprived areas treated this way on here. That should never be the Rangers way.
 
Your post a few back where you highlighted certain sections spoke of systems. Have you lost the plot?

And wtf are you on about respect those who boo? Do you realise what quotes are for in text?

Have a word ffs, you've gone off on one here

When I said this?

"No issue with it remaining indefinitely personally, because it is a process the players see as part of a need for systemic change - systemic change occurs when change reaches all or most parts of a system"

Yes I specifically made mention of all or most part because I am fully aware you are never going to change how all view equality, some people are so ignorant to it they will never change, those are the type of people I have no respect for - I did state DON'T

And I did use quotation because I have read people on this thread say "I respect those who boo" and have zero respect for those kinds of people.

Capiche.
 
What impact are you expecting a gesture to make - it's accumulative; a problem isn't solved overnight. The fact it is being discussed shows it is having an effect.

Incidentally, why do you keep referencing Zaha - why is his opinion of more relevance to you than Tav, Goldson, Kamara...?
Zaha was one of the first prominent footballers to come out against the knee. I also choose not to reference our own players because there's an emotional attachment to them which can influence logic.

I think any gesture which receives the publicity the taking the knee stuff has will have the same impact. Since the football started back in the EPL last season (when ours was decided with a dodgy vote), change every mention of BLM with SRTRC, in stadiums, on jerseys, on SSN, on question time, on debate shows, on phone ins... The impact would be identical. So the success of the campaign isn't linked to the knee, so why keep it when it's clearly divisive and counter productive?
 
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