Tav and Goldson

archimedes

Well-Known Member
Without wishing to tempt fate, what do we do if one or both of them were to get injured?

Tav is covered to an extent, although obviously not to the same degree of quality.

I'm not Goldson's biggest fan, but the thought of playing Davies and Sands as our centre back pairing gives me the fear.

Helander and Souttar can't be relied upon, Katic isn't at the level we need, and I don't think King is quite there yet either.

Should we be signing another CB if we make it to the group stages?
 

HawfHeedHartson

Well-Known Member
No we already have 5 on the books plus Sands who can play there. That's not even including Katic who we need to move on.
 

nateman

Well-Known Member
We're as well covered in central defence as we can be really.

Tav getting injured would be a bigger concern than Goldson, no one is capable of replacing him.
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
Not Goldsons biggest fan?? and why would that be?
Because I think he can be a bit of a bombscare at times. He quite often gets away with his mistakes (like in the first leg against Union near the end where he gave it away) and occasionally he'll do inexplicable things (like in the Europa final).

I just don't think he's that great a defender. He's ever present and a leader that is decent at marshalling the defence (which is why I'd be worried if her were out), but I don't think he's half the player he thinks he is.
 

Fbearblue

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Staff member
Because I think he can be a bit of a bombscare at times. He quite often gets away with his mistakes (like in the first leg against Union near the end where he gave it away) and occasionally he'll do inexplicable things (like in the Europa final).

I just don't think he's that great a defender. He's ever present and a leader that is decent at marshalling the defence (which is why I'd be worried if her were out), but I don't think he's half the player he thinks he is.
OK. Thanks for the reply, I cant agree with some of what you have said and I think it's easy to focus on the bad things, but for every mistake, he's made I feel he has more than made up for it.

Every defender has a mistake in them, no one is infallible.
 

barcode

Well-Known Member
Spending time worrying about the things that have not happened yet is not useful. Are you advocating that we need to get back ups for the back ups? Just in case?

We have back ups in all positions.

Many had the fear if we ever lost Alfie for a prolonged period. We didn't miss him as we adjusted our style of play.

IF any of that happened, we would adjust with the formation and the squad we have.
 

MightyGersLand!

Well-Known Member
Without wishing to tempt fate, what do we do if one or both of them were to get injured?

Tav is covered to an extent, although obviously not to the same degree of quality.

I'm not Goldson's biggest fan, but the thought of playing Davies and Sands as our centre back pairing gives me the fear.

Helander and Souttar can't be relied upon, Katic isn't at the level we need, and I don't think King is quite there yet either.

Should we be signing another CB if we make it to the group stages?
Katic is a pior defender in the grand scheme of things.
But our goals against isnt that much worse and he scored a decent amount.
He wouldn't be near my first 11.
But we have around 8 players in our squad who gave a good account if themaekvwa in Europe and went later stages, who are all now bench warmers.
Bigger picture. That's a good thing
 

OnTheWay

Well-Known Member
The defence and keeper situation worry me more than anything.

Time will tell with Davies and Yilmaz but in terms of squad depth at the back with quality I think it's the weakest we've looked since 2020.
 

Herbie53

Well-Known Member
I have confidence in Souttar, had a rough start at Livingston but the circumstances excuse it for me. He was very good for Hearts in the cup last season and was solid for Scotland around the same time.

Wasn’t Tavernier praised last season for only missing something like 5 games in so many years? (I remember Halliday talking about it on Open Goal). We also haven’t seen what Zukowski’s got and Sands can play RB. Think we have plenty of cover OP.
 

nateman

Well-Known Member
The defence and keeper situation worry me more than anything.

Time will tell with Davies and Yilmaz but in terms of squad depth at the back with quality I think it's the weakest we've looked since 2020.

The year we won the league we had Goldson, Balogun, Helander and Edmundson/Simpson as our options in central defence.

I don't believe that Goldson, Davies, Souttar, Sands & King is any weaker than that - it's stronger.

Also worth remembering that we started that season with Bassey & Patterson as options for cover at fullback - both of who had never played a professional game. Sometimes you need to trust that younger players can step up when called upon.
 

ronadamus_prime

Well-Known Member
Without wishing to tempt fate, what do we do if one or both of them were to get injured?

Tav is covered to an extent, although obviously not to the same degree of quality.

I'm not Goldson's biggest fan, but the thought of playing Davies and Sands as our centre back pairing gives me the fear.

Helander and Souttar can't be relied upon, Katic isn't at the level we need, and I don't think King is quite there yet either.

Should we be signing another CB if we make it to the group stages?

No, we shouldn't. It would be a waste of a wage. Souttar and King are Goldson's back up. Zukowski and Devine are Tav's back up. We also have Sands who can fill multiple roles in the side.

As a support we need to stop dreaming up worst case scenarios and demanding the club plan for that scenario happening, just in case. We are supposed to be trimming the fat in the squad, not adding to it.

We simply aren't going to get a defender as good as Goldson in to be a back up. So that limits our options massively, to either a young player to develop (like King) or a player who is decent but not quite as good as Goldson (like Souttar).
 

alba73

Well-Known Member
Wasn’t Tavernier praised last season for only missing something like 5 games in so many years? (I remember Halliday talking about it on Open Goal). We also haven’t seen what Zukowski’s got and Sands can play RB. Think we have plenty of cover OP.
And most if not all those games were down to a hernia rather than an injury
 

SmileyBear

Well-Known Member
Not Goldsons biggest fan?? and why would that be?

In answer to your question we will not be signing another CH and Zukowski is the back up to Tav.
I'd like to see more of Zukowski in smaller games as the last time he played was Alloa which seems a while ago, I do know he had an injury.
 

JMCK

Well-Known Member
Those two, last week, were incredibly good with Tillman; without that, I doubt Tillman would have played the second-half he did.
 

Derek76

Well-Known Member
Because I think he can be a bit of a bombscare at times. He quite often gets away with his mistakes (like in the first leg against Union near the end where he gave it away) and occasionally he'll do inexplicable things (like in the Europa final).

I just don't think he's that great a defender. He's ever present and a leader that is decent at marshalling the defence (which is why I'd be worried if her were out), but I don't think he's half the player he thinks he is.
Yet for both the current and previous manager he is/was first choice.

I wonder what they don't see that you do.
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
Yet for both the current and previous manager he is/was first choice.

I wonder what they don't see that you do.
Are you deliberately missing the part where I said I'd be worried if he wasn't playing in our defense?

Not thinking he's that great a player doesn't mean I don't realise he is an important part of the team just now.
 

Derek76

Well-Known Member
Are you deliberately missing the part where I said I'd be worried if he wasn't playing in our defense?

Not thinking he's that great a player doesn't mean I don't realise he is an important part of the team just now.
Clearly the current manager and the previous manager thought he was the best central defender we have.

If you think he is not great then how bad do you think the rest of the central defenders are?
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
Clearly the current manager and the previous manager thought he was the best central defender we have.

If you think he is not great then how bad do you think the rest of the central defenders are?
Actually, like many, I think both managers probably think Helander is the best central defender we have, but sadly he is hardly ever available to play.

There's no doubting why both managers continue to pick him, as he has great fitness and leadership qualities (which is what I said earlier) but I just don't think he's that good a player. I mean, I'm not saying he's a bad player, but I think he gets away with a lot of mistakes thanks to others covering him, and I think he made a glaring mistake in our biggest game for 14 years, and yet somehow still managed to blame Bassey for it.
 

dh1963

Well-Known Member
I share the worry in the OP to an extent, these 2 players have been so reliable and almost indestructible for years. A fair number of our team must totally rely on them being there by now, they basically haven't played alongside or in front of anyone else.

No doubt in my mind Souttar is the preferred back up as right centre back, with King next. In most games, that's still decent cover.
The bigger unknown is Devine or Zukowski coming in at right back, we just need to hope they can handle it. Neither usually even make the bench, so unlike Patterson they aren't even getting a few minutes here and there.
 

dh1963

Well-Known Member
Actually, like many, I think both managers probably think Helander is the best central defender we have, but sadly he is hardly ever available to play.

There's no doubting why both managers continue to pick him, as he has great fitness and leadership qualities (which is what I said earlier) but I just don't think he's that good a player. I mean, I'm not saying he's a bad player, but I think he gets away with a lot of mistakes thanks to others covering him, and I think he made a glaring mistake in our biggest game for 14 years, and yet somehow still managed to blame Bassey for it.
A central defender who has hardly missed a game in 4 years and with over 225 starts in that time isn't going to get through that amount of top level football without some mistakes and the occasional poor goal conceded.
A lot of fans I know seem to keep bringing up Goldson's errors all the time as if they happen every week. In truth, the number of significant game changing mistakes he's made are tiny compared to the number of minutes he plays. I'm old enough to remember every great Rangers central defender back to the early 70s and the likes of Jackson, Smith, Forsyth, Johnstone, Butcher, Gough, Amoruso and Weir all cost us bad goals and made awful passes on occasion too. But rightly they are all remembered for the high level of excellence they contributed overall, in days mainly before every game was televised and then dissected on social media.
If we get the same next 4 years out of Goldson as the last 4 years, he is a genuine hall of fame candidate.
 

Highway Star

Well-Known Member
Without wishing to tempt fate, what do we do if one or both of them were to get injured?

Tav is covered to an extent, although obviously not to the same degree of quality.

I'm not Goldson's biggest fan, but the thought of playing Davies and Sands as our centre back pairing gives me the fear.

Helander and Souttar can't be relied upon, Katic isn't at the level we need, and I don't think King is quite there yet either.

Should we be signing another CB if we make it to the group stages?


I'd say Souttar is Goldson's back up, but thankfully Goldson is the most robust central defender I've ever seen and is indestructible.

Tav too, is also a very strong athlete and rarely injured.

Ideally, we can get Helander fit, as he and Goldson are the best 2 central defenders in the league.

We also have Souttar, Sands and Davies, so it's hard to justify signing another central defender.

In comparison, what if celtic lost Carter Vikers?
They only have Starfelt, then Welsh and the recent French loan signing, who's looked far from convincing.

We are far better covered than they are.
 

Highway Star

Well-Known Member
A central defender who has hardly missed a game in 4 years and with over 225 starts in that time isn't going to get through that amount of top level football without some mistakes and the occasional poor goal conceded.
A lot of fans I know seem to keep bringing up Goldson's errors all the time as if they happen every week. In truth, the number of significant game changing mistakes he's made are tiny compared to the number of minutes he plays. I'm old enough to remember every great Rangers central defender back to the early 70s and the likes of Jackson, Smith, Forsyth, Johnstone, Butcher, Gough, Amoruso and Weir all cost us bad goals and made awful passes on occasion too. But rightly they are all remembered for the high level of excellence they contributed overall, in days mainly before every game was televised and then dissected on social media.
If we get the same next 4 years out of Goldson as the last 4 years, he is a genuine hall of fame candidate.


Great post and bang on the money.
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
A central defender who has hardly missed a game in 4 years and with over 225 starts in that time isn't going to get through that amount of top level football without some mistakes and the occasional poor goal conceded.
A lot of fans I know seem to keep bringing up Goldson's errors all the time as if they happen every week. In truth, the number of significant game changing mistakes he's made are tiny compared to the number of minutes he plays. I'm old enough to remember every great Rangers central defender back to the early 70s and the likes of Jackson, Smith, Forsyth, Johnstone, Butcher, Gough, Amoruso and Weir all cost us bad goals and made awful passes on occasion too. But rightly they are all remembered for the high level of excellence they contributed overall, in days mainly before every game was televised and then dissected on social media.
If we get the same next 4 years out of Goldson as the last 4 years, he is a genuine hall of fame candidate.

I understand what you are saying, but let's take as an example his error at the end of the Union game where he was fannying about with the ball at the half way line, gave it away, and they had a fantastic opportunity to score.
Because they didn't score, it didn't turn out to be a 'game changing mistake', but it could easily have been had it not been for his team mates.
That's what I meant earlier when I said he makes a lot of mistakes that he seems to get away with thanks to his team mates.
And usually in these situations, he manages to find someone else to blame.
 

Let’s Gio

Well-Known Member
Kinda sounds like a ‘what if they get injured but I really want to state I don’t like goldson thread’

We have back ups to both and neither suffer niggly injuries so it’s an acceptable risk

Helander and Leon missed more games hence why I think Leon wasn’t renewed and Fil will leave in Jan or summer 23.

Leon king has a great opportunity to stake a claim for a cb spot and once JOhn Souttar is fit/ready our 4 centre back choices look solid.

Then there’s Mayo - could progress at killie into a good option too (looking forward)
 

RFC56

Well-Known Member
We’re always one injury away from disaster. Whether that be tav, Goldson, Morelos, kent. Either one of them face time on the sidelines and it would severely dampen our season but that’s just football. Zukowski and souttar would be back ups to Goldson. With colak and matondo being the back ups to Morelos and Kent. There is options there as back up but they’re never going to be as as good as the main choice first 11 players.
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
Kinda sounds like a ‘what if they get injured but I really want to state I don’t like goldson thread’
Yep, that's why I started the thread.

You do realise that the crux of the thread was that I was worried if Goldson (or Tav) got injured?


:rolleyes:
 

dh1963

Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying, but let's take as an example his error at the end of the Union game where he was fannying about with the ball at the half way line, gave it away, and they had a fantastic opportunity to score.
Because they didn't score, it didn't turn out to be a 'game changing mistake', but it could easily have been had it not been for his team mates.
That's what I meant earlier when I said he makes a lot of mistakes that he seems to get away with thanks to his team mates.
And usually in these situations, he manages to find someone else to blame.
I'm not saying he doesn't make mistakes, or play a bad pass. But it's context that I think gets missed.

Goldson probably gets given the ball more often than any player in our team, often when close to an opponent closing him down. Any centre back I've ever seen will sometimes give the ball away or play a stray pass, or get caught in possession. That is more likely again if that centre back has the ball at his feet 60 or 70 times every game.
I watched Liverpool last night and Van Dijk gave the ball away a few times, many people think he's the best central defender in the world.

If you expect any centre back to never get caught out, you'll be disappointed. Considering the way we play from the back all the time through him, and considering the fact he hardly misses a minute in an entire season, his number of important mistakes is really small. The fact that we remember his mistakes so well actually shows how few he makes. Although I obviously wish he hadn't made one in Seville.

And I'm NOT saying he's anywhere near Van Dijk the centre half!

In my view, he's a very good centre back, and at least the equal if not better than many currently playing down south in "the best league in the world".
 

Highway Star

Well-Known Member
We’re always one injury away from disaster. Whether that be tav, Goldson, Morelos, kent. Either one of them face time on the sidelines and it would severely dampen our season but that’s just football. Zukowski and souttar would be back ups to Goldson. With colak and matondo being the back ups to Morelos and Kent. There is options there as back up but they’re never going to be as as good as the main choice first 11 players.


That pretty much applies to every club in world football tbf.

The back ups are always a downgrade on the first choices.
 

AyrshireBear79

Well-Known Member
Actually, like many, I think both managers probably think Helander is the best central defender we have, but sadly he is hardly ever available to play.

There's no doubting why both managers continue to pick him, as he has great fitness and leadership qualities (which is what I said earlier) but I just don't think he's that good a player. I mean, I'm not saying he's a bad player, but I think he gets away with a lot of mistakes thanks to others covering him, and I think he made a glaring mistake in our biggest game for 14 years, and yet somehow still managed to blame Bassey for it.
A 'mistake' that some will never ever forgive him for it seems..

I'm not sure who it was, but in another thread about it (take your pick) someone actually pointed out that it wasn't as clear cut a 'mistake' as some repeatedly claim.

It was a very good pacey ball, into a dangerous area. Wright had a chance to block it initially but couldn't & Goldson who had been marking the 'space' in the box since Bassey & Barisic were marking the two opposition players behind him never flung himself at it.

I hate watching back defeats in big games, well any defeat really, but he would literally have needed to have made up his mind that he was throwing himself at it within a second of it leaving the guys foot.

He couldn't have just swung his right foot at it as it went across him because it was already past him by that point.

He also played in every game of that run to our biggest game in 14 years... but yeah... clearly isn't that good really...
 

HamiltonBear

Well-Known Member
Every defender has a mistake in them, no one is infallible.
I watched VVD struggle a couple of times last night Vs Palace and Liverpool had most of the game.

Amazes me that players are held to ridiculous standards, almost robot like. I reckon CG would cost in the region of £10 million to replace. A few average games (below his normal standard) in a 50-60 game season is extremely difficult to find.
 

Dashboard Jesus

Well-Known Member
Because I think he can be a bit of a bombscare at times. He quite often gets away with his mistakes (like in the first leg against Union near the end where he gave it away) and occasionally he'll do inexplicable things (like in the Europa final).

I just don't think he's that great a defender. He's ever present and a leader that is decent at marshalling the defence (which is why I'd be worried if her were out), but I don't think he's half the player he thinks he is.
Agree with this. He makes regular mistakes and always blames his team mates afterwards. Not half as good as he thinks he is.
 

archimedes

Well-Known Member
In true FF fashion, people jumping on the thread 'defending' Goldson because I said I wasn't his biggest fan.

In reality, the thread was about how much trouble we'd be in if he was out injured, but some people love a good argument,eh?
 

Isje 931

Well-Known Member
jesus christ

Goldson ....not as good as a defender as he thinks. Where do you start with that? guy has been an abolsute colossus for us, infact one of our best CBS over the last 20 years. Hes been paired with some shite that hasnt helped either. To say he nakes mistakes but recovers is nonesense too. EVERY defender will make mistakes. He is incredibly important to this team and his distribution is brilliant.
 
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