Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

deedle said:
The line about ‘nailing Rangers to the floor’ was originally attributed to Lawwell.

TBH, some of the claims on here and figures mentioned are well wide of the mark. I don’t think this helps our case.
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I am fairly certain it was Reid that said it mate. It was allegedly during a pre season tour of supporters clubs with treacle teeth to try & get the unwashed onside as the green seat brigade were really starting to take effect at the end of the season previous.
 
What about our MPs and MSPs. As useless as the MSPs and many MPs are, and I know Westminster is closed just now or similar until the general elections. This has to be investigated proper.
 
Centralbear said:
Pretty sure tax rate during these years was 40% meaning tax due of around £18.5m. NI contributions were capped at lower rate of earnings than today, likely tax and NI due probably around or below £20m.
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Something I dont understand. If we as the employer pay the tax then why do the players as employees pay it as well?
 
Norskger said:
What about our MPs and MSPs. As useless as the MSPs and many MPs are, and I know Westminster is closed just now or similar until the general elections. This has to be investigated proper.
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Im waiting for my chance when brendan ohara visits on the campaign trail. He'll be asked if he will raise this if elected or does he not represent "huns"....his words
 
Confirmation, if ever needed, that we were the victim of crime.

From the HMRC through Whyte, Green to Ashley it all stinks
 
The lost revenue alone will run into tens of millions before the £50M overstated tax bill.

Rangers Lawyers best get themselves ready for a lot of overtime as they are going to be very busy!
 
Centralbear said:
Pretty sure tax rate during these years was 40% meaning tax due of around £18.5m. NI contributions were capped at lower rate of earnings than today, likely tax and NI due probably around or below £20m.
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You need to add penalties and interest on.

Looks like HMRC have done the same calculation as you then grossed up (presumably as the employer would be making good on the tax which would have been due by the employee had PAYE been correctly applied at the time of payment). However, when there’s a PAYE failure (I.e salary wasn’t taxed that should have been) the employer is responsible for putting HMRC back into the position it would have been in had everything been done correctly at the outset.

Thus no grossing up is required.

Seems HMRC have grossed up then added penalties and interest to the grossed up figure so have arrived at the £70m figure.

This is a basic error. How could they have got it so wrong?
 
So lemme get this straight, it looks like we were only liable for £20m?

If so, that surely could have been managed? Whyte didn’t need to take the company into liquidation. He just did what he always did with his father in the 90s?

Is that it in a nutshell?
 
xd182 said:
I'll take those 10 deducted points back, please.
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I am not sure about 10 getting back. They were deducted for shyte not paying the tax bill. Not sure about how it went with points deduction and tax man? Was it not for going into admi? Flummoxed by it all at the time and still none the wiser
Ambiorix said:
It's only right that Celtic should be stripped of their asterisked titles. ;)
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Gibraltar Loyal said:
I have a contact who is an expert on foi and data protection law. I intend to speak to him and get advise on how i can raise a foi against hmrc and also spfl and sfa re 5 way agreement
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I used to work for a public sector organisation. We would receive FOI requests, and we had to get all information, emails etc, gathered and sent to the person who requested it. Anyone can ask for a FOI request, especially from a public sector organisation.
 
If HMRC no longer have a veto on the CVA offer by oldco, could it be offered again and the company liquidation stopped?

In an ideal world, I would like the 2 companies to merge as long as oldco was debt free. Would also mean any litigation money for loss of revenue could go the the club and not the oldco ex owners?
 
Hubert74 said:
I mean we're going after the taxman. I'd like to say we should be able to count on the support of the entirety of Scottish football and society. After all, isn't Scotland a beacon of wonderfulness and tolerance? That's what the Scottish government and its supporters keep telling us.

Perhaps they could try proving it.

Do you know what genuinely makes me feel physically sick? Not only that you and I and anyone else who pays tax makes it possible for the HMRC to even function, but that we are nothing compared to all those who stash their funds abroad:
www.imf.org

The True Cost of Global Tax Havens – IMF F&D

Nicholas Shaxson explains why the many billions attracted by tax havens do harm to sending and receiving nations alike, and how best to tackle this global economic challenge.
www.imf.org
www.theguardian.com

UK and territories are 'greatest enabler' of tax avoidance, study says

UK’s ‘tax haven network’ ranked among top 10 in corporate tax haven index
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
fullfact.org

Tax: evasion and avoidance in the UK - Full Fact

In 2013-14, HMRC estimate that they lost about £2.7 billion through tax avoidance and £4.4 billion through tax evasion—so about £7.1 billion overall.
fullfact.org fullfact.org

So HMRC, instead of going after the billions that are being actively hidden from our country every single day they go after one of the proudest and historical institutions in the country, an institution known world wide.

Honestly, the more I think about it the angrier I get. And all the while the cover up that is going on across the city TO THIS DAY is still being ignored.
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This is the nail on the head. We are proud to be British, yet the scum media, government, and authorities have, and are still trying to kill us off, while another sick football club has covered up the biggest scandal in sporting history, with the help of all of the above.
 
AriseSirWalter said:
Not had a chance to read all posts so apologies if covered already but is there likely to be any tangible benefits to come our way from this.

At the very least we should be given sincere apologies from HMRC, Scottish football who punished the victim which such bloodlust but in terms of things that can benefit Rangers, is there likely to be anything that will come of it?

If HMRC are to be sued, would this not be to the benefit of murray/whyte/green, the thought makes me sick to my stomach to be honest.

I could see that oldco being reintegrated could be more likely now but it doesn't really go anyway to reversing the damage done to us.

In an ideal world Rangers would be reimbursed for the money lost and reputational damage but I can't see how that would happen when it's separate companies/owners. Could the 5WA give us some way of getting retribution from Scottish Football Authorities?

At least we shouldn't be subjected to the moral high ground from those who still turn a blind eye to the biggest scandal in Scottish football but my worry is apart from the uncontested trophies they won is that cel'ic have all their ducks in a row and even though we are the victims the long-term damage could be irreversible even taking into consideration how well we're doing this season.
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The reality is this in no more than another kick in the face. The figures being talked about are paper figures not actual money and relate to the liquidated company.

HMRC following their success in court in the BIG Tax Case - HMRC didn't pursue any other club that I'm aware off - despite having a ruling in their favour. That for me was always the most annoying part and something which HMRC should be made to account for.

So in reality this will come down to Murray and possibly Whyte chasing a pay day.
 
I know this is the large tax case, which in turn forced Murray to sell, but when we went into admin it was due to Whyte not paying NI was it not?

so what legal avenues do the club have if it wasnt this that triggered admin?

I dont have a clue with all this, but seems like nothing will come of it.

am. I wrong in thinking this?
 
BlooBlood said:
You need to add penalties and interest on.

Looks like HMRC have done the same calculation as you then grossed up (presumably as the employer would be making good on the tax which would have been due by the employee had PAYE been correctly applied at the time of payment). However, when there’s a PAYE failure (I.e salary wasn’t taxed that should have been) the employer is responsible for putting HMRC back into the position it would have been in had everything been done correctly at the outset.

Thus no grossing up is required.

Seems HMRC have grossed up then added penalties and interest to the grossed up figure so have arrived at the £70m figure.

This is a basic error. How could they have got it so wrong?
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I genuinely cannot see any way in which this is a mistake. Assume that the mutterings of the time were correct and we were used as a test case. If that were true, then HMRC would want to get everything absolutely spot on. It would be no low level paper-gatherer, to steal a phrase we all know now, that did the work, it would have been a senior team. That senior team would then have passed it on to be signed off. Once signed off it would then have been passed to lawyers. Once we started appealing, it would have been through more lawyers.

Even if the initial workings were done by someone relatively junior, this had to pass through many pairs of hands to get to where it got. A mistake 100% would have been spotted by someone at some stage. The only logical way that this get past every single level it did is if someone made it look correct right at the start. That takes malicious foresight. If it looked right, it could have passed through subsequent checks without anyone digging too deep.

We need to know the individual or team that came up with the original amount and we need them to be placed under oath on the stand.
 
vinnie said:
So lemme get this straight, it looks like we were only liable for £20m?

If so, that surely could have been managed? Whyte didn’t need to take the company into liquidation. He just did what he always did with his father in the 90s?

Is that it in a nutshell?
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I'd imagine £20m was a sustainable debt. McGregor, Davis, Naismith, Wallace, etc could all have been sold for good cash.
 
Gibraltar Loyal said:
I have a contact who is an expert on foi and data protection law. I intend to speak to him and get advise on how i can raise a foi against hmrc and also spfl and sfa re 5 way agreement
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SFA/SPL/SPFL aren't publicly funded bodies - therefore FOIs don't apply.

In theory there shouldn't be anything to stop an FOI asking HMRC about generic stuff such as how many people have been disciplined for confidentiality breaches etc. But it wouldn't surprise me if HMRC came up with some bullshit reason for not answering it.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
I genuinely cannot see any way in which this is a mistake. Assume that the mutterings of the time were correct and we were used as a test case. If that were true, then HMRC would want to get everything absolutely spot on. It would be no low level paper-gatherer, to steal a phrase we all know now, that did the work, it would have been a senior team. That senior team would then have passed it on to be signed off. Once signed off it would then have been passed to lawyers. Once we started appealing, it would have been through more lawyers.

Even if the initial workings were done by someone relatively junior, this had to pass through many pairs of hands to get to where it got. A mistake 100% would have been spotted by someone at some stage. The only logical way that this get past every single level it did is if someone made it look correct right at the start. That takes malicious foresight. If it looked right, it could have passed through subsequent checks without anyone digging too deep.

We need to know the individual or team that came up with the original amount and we need them to be placed under oath on the stand.
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they would just trot out their favourite lord Mr Carloway who would use 'Commonsense' as opposed to actual law when making his verdict.
Scotland is corrupt and rotten to the very core with their 19th Century Terrorist placemen in the highest of places.
 
Hubert74 said:
So normally I'm a very calm person, those of you who regularly engage and debate with me know that though I have strong opinions I try to be fair and balanced.

But this is insane and I'm genuinely furious. So if someone can calm me down after this rant then I'd be much appreciated.

So HMRC destroyed us illegally. Is that correct?
And the SPFL and all the other clubs decided to stick the boot into us awful cheating hun scum. Is that also correct?
And all the while across town there's been a 40 year long paedophile ring operating and now being actively covered up and protected not only by those at the top of that disgusting club but powerful people within the political class. Would that also be accurate?

What the hell are those at the top of the pile doing such that a government organisation was allowed to destroy a club with no justification whilst the government refuses to even acknowledge the worst, absolute worst, cover up in our country's history.

Am I going too far here? Do I need to take a step back? Someone please talk some sense to me because I love this club and everyone else here. Even those who I have been rude to and shown me rudeness. Those who I have debated fiercely with and those who consider me a fool are still family as far as I'm concerned. And family looks after each other when times are tough.
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Feeling the same emotions, actually getting more and more furious the more I read, heads need to roll in many corrupt organisations.
 
im_a_good_bluenose said:
they would just trot out their favourite lord Mr Carloway who would use 'Commonsense' as opposed to actual law when making his verdict.
Scotland is corrupt and rotten to the very core with their 19th Century Terrorist placemen in the highest of places.
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I do not follow. Common sense would suggest that all workings are double checked. HMRC is not a Scottish institution.
 
It's a tinhat conspiracy to say this was not a deliberate action to put our club down. It's so obvious.
The establishment club? Queen's XI?
Celtic have had a say in this make no mistake.
 
Tagsbear said:
Deedle do you remember there were transcripts of the meetings Reid and Lawwell where doing in Celtic clubs at the time?

I remember reading them and that’s were the quotes came from and at the time we mostly just dismissed them as being crackpots playing to the gallery, I’ve not seen them since, but like everything else on the internet, they’ll be somewhere.
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The first time I heard this was many years ago and It involved a private conversation a FF poster related about Lawwell.

As it stands I believe the quote is worthless in terms of proving anything.

If we had these transcripts where are they now?
 
TheEgg said:
I know this is the large tax case, which in turn forced Murray to sell, but when we went into admin it was due to Whyte not paying NI was it not?

so what legal avenues do the club have if it wasnt this that triggered admin?

I dont have a clue with all this, but seems like nothing will come of it.

am. I wrong in thinking this?
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hmrc forced Murray to sell with false information. The company was not worth 1p due to the invented debt hmrc placed on it. Hence we get a chancer who wants to do a switcheroo. If HMRC had not grossly mishandled the case we as a company at that time would have been more attractive to buyers.
 
TheEgg said:
I know this is the large tax case, which in turn forced Murray to sell, but when we went into admin it was due to Whyte not paying NI was it not?

so what legal avenues do the club have if it wasnt this that triggered admin?

I dont have a clue with all this, but seems like nothing will come of it.

am. I wrong in thinking this?
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the whole point for me is the charlatan Whyte would never have been near the club if HMRC hadnt got their calculations so wrong

Either we would have managed our way out of it or would have been far more attractive to a buyer than a club who were constantly told they had a tax liability of over £100m
 
TheEgg said:
I know this is the large tax case, which in turn forced Murray to sell, but when we went into admin it was due to Whyte not paying NI was it not?

so what legal avenues do the club have if it wasnt this that triggered admin?

I dont have a clue with all this, but seems like nothing will come of it.

am. I wrong in thinking this?
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Whyte voluntarily triggered administration but the CVA was refused because of the big tax case.
 
An absolute disgrace. Perhaps the oldco have grounds for suing HMRC as their estimated bill was the major reason for the company eventually being wound up. Good news for creditors like myself, may get a decent refund on my debenture.
 
scooter70 said:
the whole point for me is the charlatan Whyte would never have been near the club if HMRC hadnt got their calculations so wrong

Either we would have managed our way out of it or would have been far more attractive to a buyer than a club who were constantly told they had a tax liability of over £100m
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exactly, everything snowballed due to HMRC not being able to do their job regards Murrays oldco tax bill. And just as much so afterward when they denied a CVA against a made-up sum.
 
instructor said:
An absolute disgrace. Perhaps the oldco have grounds for suing HMRC as their estimated bill was the major reason for the company eventually being wound up. Good news for creditors like myself, may get a decent refund on my debenture.
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lawyers and admin will make millions, but the reward will be massive Im sure to allow those last in the que like you and I to be repaid what we are due.
 
This is now the biggest sporting scandal in football history imo , while other types of scandal are swept under the carpet by governing bodies,councils,governments,media.
 
I have faith in the daily update on heart and hand explaining it to me without hurting my head trying to understand in this thread.
 
southsideger68 said:
of course it was deliberate, this has John Reids name written all over it
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I tend to subscribe to the Occam’s Razor theory whereby Murray was forced into a sale by the bank through his own mismanagement of MIH and the potential tax liability HMRC were seeking due to shifting the goalposts on EBTs post economic downturn.

Thereafter Celtic were clearly the biggest beneficiaries of any Rangers collapse so it would actually be in some way expected that they used whatever influence they had to assuage that, but I’d stop short of saying Reid and Lawwell were pulling the strings from the start - that just sounds uncomfortably close to mentally challenged moonhowling to me.

However, what influence did they have at HMRC to make a bad situation appear even worse, and in that respect a cabinet heavyweight who just happened to be the Celtic chairman does tend to stand out as a glaring starting point if you’re looking to follow any trail of breadcrumbs.

Thing is, we know no one in the Scottish media has either the inclination or incentive to follow it.
 
Amazing how quickly that mob fall in line off the back of 1 mentally challenged blog.

All perpetuating the same narrative. I'd love to know who is running that tax case account.
 
HandsomeHead said:
I guess one of the big questions here is was it a genuine mistake or a deliberate one?
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Genuine mistake nope, deliberate yup it was planned and would have succeed if it wasn't for King and the bears, and our staunch support.
We still have to stop that fat slug Ashley bloodsucking off us.
 
El Jock Grande Sabia said:
I am fairly certain it was Reid that said it mate. It was allegedly during a pre season tour of supporters clubs with treacle teeth to try & get the unwashed onside as the green seat brigade were really starting to take effect at the end of the season previous.
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Lawwell done the supporters club circuit with Lennon, 100%

A large number of Celtic fans despise Reid for obvious reasons, I doubt he would be comfortable sitting amongst them in a pub/club setting.
 
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