Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

derodger

Member
Could shareholders of the old company have a claim against HMRC as their mistake made the old shares worthless and people list money?
 

millar2318

Well-Known Member
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
Well as soon as you find any other examples of where HMRC have made a similar mistake which has led to the liquidation of a business and commensurate job losses etc, be sure to let us all know.
 

Sutton_Blows_goats

Well-Known Member
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
HMRC got nothing wrong mate. HMRC is basically a badge and a legal entity. People working on behalf of HMRC got it wrong. Individuals. They should be targeted and held accountable. You dont send a knife to jail for a stabbing.
 

PMB1872

Well-Known Member
Today’s news is no great surprise. A great source of irritation for the club and its fans and provoking much anger, rightfully. But no surprise. The surprising bit of it is that it’s managed to hit the press, for which we should be thankful.

The bigger question is why it has taken so long to determine this overcalculation occurred, and why capable tax minds couldn’t have determined this at the time, to stop the scenario that unfolded from happening?

I will await next steps with interest, but not with any great expectation of proper compensation.
 

Dougie Gray

Well-Known Member
Right,

I have read the BDO report.

Would be delighted if someone could confirm my interpretation of same.

HMRC initially claimed for £94M as part of the Liquidation claim.

£74M of this was related to the EBT issue, commonly known as the Big Tax Case.

The penalty element of that £74M claim amounted to £24M and the claim for this element was withdrawn. HMRC also admitted to having miscalculated other elements and therefore the total claim from the HMRC, £94M actually reduced to C.£64M

There was therefore a reductions of circa £30M in the overall claim by HMRC.

If the sum sits at Circa £64M in the round, are we now saying there is a further sum to be wiped off this or is the news story really just a rehash of the creditors report?

Further points to note.

Ticketus were owed significant sums, £26.7M from memory.

The current administrators are suing the previous administrators for £27M for wrong advice.

The only people who will really win is BDO and the other parties appointed but were there to be significant litigation, then it is possible the pot would end up in surplus... If's but's and maybe's unfortunately.
The letter also states that BDO are challenging the remaining sum
 

BothwellBear

Well-Known Member
Ticketus would never have been sold out season ticket money as Craig whyte would have been knowhere near ibrox in the first place.
U are not getting this

HMRC wanted and quoted 134 million when it should have been 20
Suggest you calm down mate, at no point have I had a go at you. The figures you continue to state are widely inaccurate.
 

TNT

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
OK, I have went through the oldco accounts.

The following was paid to EBT's
2000​
0​
2001​
1010000​
2002​
5176000​
2003​
6791000​
2004​
7252000​
2005​
7241000​
2006​
9192000​
2007​
4988000​
2008​
2291000​
2009​
2360000​
2010​
1358000​
Total
47659000​


That isn't the tax - that is the amount paid.

I am no tax expert - but, for the sake of arguements, if you say the tax/ni liability is 60%, then that comes in at £28595400

That is surely manageable?
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Don’t think it would. If all assets from new company were transferred then so would all contract and liabilities
However...Could King place newco into administration because of the debt to him, and pre-pack everything to the oldco? Shedding every single contract in the process?


Not saying he should, before anyone starts, but I am pretty certain that would work.
 

Gary Mitchell

Well-Known Member
Cut that pish out, makes us look like clowns
You don't feel cheated mate no? The shit we have had to endure with collectively for the last 7 years would have made many a team lose everything as has happened in the past, that was what it was planned for our destruction a wee convenient way of ending sectarianism in Scotland and a poke in the eye for the unionists here, in my eyes we have a right to go for the throat in this matter as it could have ENDED us.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
A mistake is adding a few quid or putting a decimal point in the wrong place. What appears to have happened here is that a wildly inflated number has not only be arrived at, it has been checked, signed off and pursued through courts 3 or 4 times. It is harder to see that as a genuine mistake than a deliberate act in truth.
 

monkey magic

Well-Known Member
The lack of Scottish media interest in this monumental scandal committed by HMRC is disturbing and quite telling. BBC Scotland news website has no mention of it whatsoever, and apart from a minor article on Page 4 of the Scottish Sun, there is nothing. Compare and contrast with the years of Rangers bashing regarding EBT's.
 

Hollywood_RM

New Member
Based on the last official report from the liquidators in June, the original claim from HMRC was for £94m (see below for high level breakdown), as things stand today their existing claim is £68m (also see below). The reduction of £26m is the decision by HMRC not to the pursue the penalties (£24m) and an adjustment to previous calculations for £2m. Both these claims (the £94m and £68m) are prepared on the grossing up basis, there is still a dispute over whether this the appropriate basis for the assessment to be raised, as previously mentioned on here HMRC are highly unlikely to "roll over" on this one due the consequences for 100's of other ongoing EBT cases if the principle is defeated. The press are reporting the best case scenario potential liability if the grossing up basis is defeated and the £68m is reduced considerably further.

£M£M
Original HMRC Claim £ 94
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC £ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC £ 38
Penalties £ 24
Interest £ 12 £ 74
Total Claim £ 94


£M£M
Current HMRC Claim £ 68
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC £ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC £ 36
Penalties £ -
Interest £ 12 £ 48
Total Claim £ 68
 

BothwellBear

Well-Known Member
A mistake is adding a few quid or putting a decimal point in the wrong place. What appears to have happened here is that a wildly inflated number has not only be arrived at, it has been checked, signed off and pursued through courts 3 or 4 times. It is harder to see that as a genuine mistake than a deliberate act in truth.
That being said I still don’t understand how anyone on the oldco side didn’t counter it before now which is why the current administrator are suing the previous for £28M
 

dt17

Well-Known Member
Even if some sort of court cases were to come of it, I doubt it'd be positive. Look at the Craig Whyte trial for example. Far too complex for a jury and no chance of justice.

Sickening what happened to us though.

Loss of players, loss of earnings, liquidated, called cheats, campaigns to have titles stripped etc, meanwhile Celtic have had a free crack at the league (and subsequently Champions League) for the best part of a decade.
 

millar2318

Well-Known Member
OK, I have went through the oldco accounts.

The following was paid to EBT's
2000​
0​
2001​
1010000​
2002​
5176000​
2003​
6791000​
2004​
7252000​
2005​
7241000​
2006​
9192000​
2007​
4988000​
2008​
2291000​
2009​
2360000​
2010​
1358000​
Total
47659000​


That isn't the tax - that is the amount paid.

I am no tax expert - but, for the sake of arguements, if you say the tax/ni liability is 60%, then that comes in at £28595400

That is surely manageable?
Well done for this. Also correct btw, an easily manageable sum. If you break that down further and look at the tax liability per year, compare it to the playing squads we had, then we could easily have jettisoned players who made zero contribution into the club but who's sale would still have easily covered the amount
 

BothwellBear

Well-Known Member
Based on the last official report from the liquidators in June, the original claim from HMRC was for £94m (see below for high level breakdown), as things stand today their existing claim is £68m (also see below). The reduction of £26m is the decision by HMRC not to the pursue the penalties (£24m) and an adjustment to previous calculations for £2m. Both these claims (the £94m and £68m) are prepared on the grossing up basis, there is still a dispute over whether this the appropriate basis for the assessment to be raised, as previously mentioned on here HMRC are highly unlikely to "roll over" on this one due the consequences for 100's of other ongoing EBT cases if the principle is defeated. The press are reporting the best case scenario potential liability if the grossing up basis is defeated and the £68m is reduced considerably further.

£M£M
Original HMRC Claim£ 94
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC£ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC£ 38
Penalties£ 24
Interest£ 12£ 74
Total Claim£ 94

£M£M
Current HMRC Claim£ 68
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC£ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC£ 36
Penalties£ -
Interest£ 12£ 48
Total Claim£ 68
I calculated it this morning to be £64M mate with a potential further £50M as a maximum removed leaving the overall total sought at closer to £14M which is incredible
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
It’s all right saying “they got it wrong” but the question is “how” they got it wrong.
How did they manage to get such a critical sum so badly and wildly wrong?To start with, was there nobody double checking the figures.
Are audits and bills not always double checked, at least, for verification?
Did they, have they, used the same formula before/since?
Get those answered, then we’ll look at the “why’s”.
 
However...Could King place newco into administration because of the debt to him, and pre-pack everything to the oldco? Shedding every single contract in the process?


Not saying he should, before anyone starts, but I am pretty certain that would work.
Best switcherroo ever... surely has to be something in that if that came to pass.
 

Bowery Boy

Well-Known Member
I try to be as logical as I can and avoid the grievance politics of attributing all our ills to a conspiracy as far as I can.

But the events of 2012, as well as everything that led to it and everything that came after absolutely f*cking reek.
I think there was a concerted attempt to bring us to our knees via the 'the big tax case' (the leaked documents etc). I think after that, opportunities were taken to kick us whilst we were down by the likes of the SFA, SPL and rival clubs. And people wonder why we're still bitter.
 

Marty101

Well-Known Member
this suggests there’s actually nothing new since the BDO report earlier this year. Why is this being reported now?

The grossing up argument is still being pursued, but it’s still at the “could result” in a reduction stage. I’d assumed The Times article must have been triggered by some success in that, but it doesn’t look like it (yet.)
 

BothwellBear

Well-Known Member
this suggests there’s actually nothing new since the BDO report earlier this year. Why is this being reported now?

The grossing up argument is still being pursued, but it’s still at the “could result” in a reduction stage. I’d assumed The Times article must have been triggered by some success in that, but it doesn’t look like it (yet.)
I have a feel the grossing up has been resolved and the times have the start on the BDO report which will confirm same in early December
 

Southpaws

Well-Known Member
Hmm...I have suggested all along that King was a very shrewd man whom I suspected was keeping what he knows close to his chest until the appropriate time...We may just be seeing the prelude to that appropriate time.

This is dynamite! The reality is that someone is to blame and that someone is only a cog in the machinery of the entire conspiracy to put Rangers FC out of business. I never really believed Kings ‘house of cards’ jibe was related to the football side of the filth.

Once they collar the perpetrator at HMRC, I suspect the squealing will start, that for me is the house of cards to which King has alluded. I really suspect and hope that King has been playing the long game with the filth and their place men with a poker face...Perhaps the house of cards is indeed about to fall!

I cannot believe that King did not know this was coming, to that end it will be very interesting to see how and when he responds on behalf of Rangers.
 

Stanley

Well-Known Member
For me, there was clear intent by Hmrc in pursuing the case to make Rangers an example on so-called tax avoidance. I fail to understand why some FF’ers don’t see this as being a massive mistake by the govt which may enable some retribution on our part, whether it be financial or otherwise.
Secondly, on conspiracy. The evidence is not yet out there. I suspect one day someone will make a mistake and it will all come out into the open. I am convinced that key players eminating from the ’green and white’ or, White & Green side of it, will ultimately be found out snd it will go all the way to at least certain key minister(s). How on earth Brown didn’t step in to save us reflects the strong catholic mindset in Blair’s cabinet at the time.
I for one want answers, even if it takes a 100 years.
 
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