Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

Hilly5411

Well-Known Member
However...Could King place newco into administration because of the debt to him, and pre-pack everything to the oldco? Shedding every single contract in the process?


Not saying he should, before anyone starts, but I am pretty certain that would work.
Exactly what I was discussing on here last night. In theory, unless I’m missing anything, this should be the most viable way to receive maximum compensation and to get the dealings with Ashley to %^*&. King has talked about going back to the oldco when the time is right, so maybe it’s now.
 

HillsBill

Well-Known Member
I don’t know who will have what recourse from this. I suspect it won’t help our current finances but should help our fans recover from the severe mauling we have had since 2012.

It will evoke no sympathy from other fans so there is only one thing to do. Keep working, keep investing and keep improving until we are back at the absolute top of Scottish football. Then we can look down again and say f*ck you.
 

a_weir

Well-Known Member
It’s all right saying “they got it wrong” but the question is “how” they got it wrong.
How did they manage to get such a critical sum so badly and wildly wrong?To start with, was there nobody double checking the figures.
Are audits and bills not always double checked, at least, for verification?
Did they, have they, used the same formula before/since?
Get those answered, then we’ll look at the “why’s”.
100% agree on all of that.

My post was in relation to the many other posts on here suggesting it was a Timmy conspiracy thatborchestrated all of it. Lloyd’s. Whyte. Green. HMRC. Duff and Phelps.

Some of that may be true but folk are running away with this news as if it’s some sort of proof of any of it.
 

Gheorghe_Hagi

Well-Known Member
I think there was a concerted attempt to bring us to our knees via the 'the big tax case' (the leaked documents etc). I think after that, opportunities were taken to kick us whilst we were down by the likes of the SFA, SPL and rival clubs. And people wonder why we're still bitter.
Loathe as I am to give that lot credit for anything, while Murray was surrounding himself with yes-men they were filling their board with people with clout and making friends in high places. Why wouldn't they want to cripple a competitor if it meant financial dominance and they also had the means to do so?

Not to mention the fact that our support makes up a core element of the opposition to the political establishment in Scotland achieving their stated aim...
 

Ballymena Bear

Well-Known Member
You don't feel cheated mate no? The shit we have had to endure with collectively for the last 7 years would have made many a team lose everything as has happened in the past, that was what it was planned for our destruction a wee convenient way of ending sectarianism in Scotland and a poke in the eye for the unionists here, in my eyes we have a right to go for the throat in this matter as it could have ENDED us.
Im more annoyed our accounts didn’t see an extra 50 million quid tbh and it’s like them saying we should of lost our titles during EBTs
 

The Double A Man

Well-Known Member
Today’s news is no great surprise. A great source of irritation for the club and its fans and provoking much anger, rightfully. But no surprise. The surprising bit of it is that it’s managed to hit the press, for which we should be thankful.

The bigger question is why it has taken so long to determine this overcalculation occurred, and why capable tax minds couldn’t have determined this at the time, to stop the scenario that unfolded from happening?

I will await next steps with interest, but not with any great expectation of proper compensation.
I would have thought that the 3 tax experts on the various tribunals would have spotted this in their deliberations.
 

trueblue77

Well-Known Member
I try to be as logical as I can and avoid the grievance politics of attributing all our ills to a conspiracy as far as I can.

But the events of 2012, as well as everything that led to it and everything that came after absolutely f*cking reek.
This 100%. What was the chances of our club being selected as the test case for EBT's ? It was just so strange, and at a time when John Reid was chairman of the fhilth. The rest was as equally shady, right up to Ashley and his decision to run us into the ground that exists to this day. What was it Paul Murray once said post liquidation ? Something along the lines that there was literally nothing they could offer that would secure the club. Funny that, eh. Lets be honest, you don't have albeit failed/flawed fraud investigations and charges for no reason. We were done over, big time.
 

Bluenose1979

Well-Known Member
It’s all right saying “they got it wrong” but the question is “how” they got it wrong.
How did they manage to get such a critical sum so badly and wildly wrong?To start with, was there nobody double checking the figures.
Are audits and bills not always double checked, at least, for verification?
Did they, have they, used the same formula before/since?
Get those answered, then we’ll look at the “why’s”.
Let's be absolutely straight about this.

It's one thing to miscalculate the bill. It's another entirely to go through several years of aggressive and highly in-depth tribunals at various levels of the court and STILL not recognise the number is incorrect by that level.

When putting their legal cases together, is anyone going to suggest it's the least bit excusable for them to have taken us through that process and never be sure they got their numbers right?
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
Exactly what I was discussing on here last night. In theory, unless I’m missing anything, this should be the most viable way to receive maximum compensation and to get the dealings with Ashley to %^*&. King has talked about going back to the oldco when the time is right, so maybe it’s now.
Would result in us enduring another European ban, so no thanks.
 

Hollywood_RM

New Member
I calculated it this morning to be £64M mate with a potential further £50M as a maximum removed leaving the overall total sought at closer to £14M which is incredible
I know mate, crazy when you talking about £1m here n there like its nothing.

It isn't clear from the BDO report (https://www.bdo.co.uk/getmedia/4d6c085d-c01f-4e05-a430-acdf44f4995c/Report-to-Creditors-10-June-2019.pdf.aspx) in section 4 what the £20m part of the £94m (not relating to the big tax case) relates to, I would assume it's unpaid PAYE/NIC/VAT from the final months when Craig Whyte ran us into the ground, so as minimum with no EBT liability at all (which wont happen) the number would be £20m.

At the moment HMRC have a claim for £48m directly relating to the EBTs, best case i would say this is halved to £24m (if the grossing up method is defeated), so overall our best case would be £44m (£24m for EBTs and £20m for other arrears).

The press not really talking about the other £20m only the tax case amounts.
 

Neilston Unionist

Well-Known Member
Could shareholders of the old company have a claim against HMRC as their mistake made the old shares worthless and people list money?
Probably. Depends how large the shareholding is to determine if it’s worthwhile though I imagine. I wonder where Murray and Whyte will come into all of this.
 

LOL 133

Well-Known Member
The lack of Scottish media interest in this monumental scandal committed by HMRC is disturbing and quite telling. BBC Scotland news website has no mention of it whatsoever, and apart from a minor article on Page 4 of the Scottish Sun, there is nothing. Compare and contrast with the years of Rangers bashing regarding EBT's.
Exactly. Pity we dont expose this bias and name and shame the bigots.
 

Bluenose1979

Well-Known Member
I know mate, crazy when you talking about £1m here n there like its nothing.

It isn't clear from the BDO report (https://www.bdo.co.uk/getmedia/4d6c085d-c01f-4e05-a430-acdf44f4995c/Report-to-Creditors-10-June-2019.pdf.aspx) in section 4 what the £20m part of the £94m (not relating to the big tax case) relates to, I would assume it's unpaid PAYE/NIC/VAT from the final months when Craig Whyte ran us into the ground, so as minimum with no EBT liability at all (which wont happen) the number would be £20m.

At the moment HMRC have a claim for £48m directly relating to the EBTs, best case i would say this is halved to £24m (if the grossing up method is defeated), so overall our best case would be £44m (£24m for EBTs and £20m for other arrears).

The press not really talking about the other £20m only the tax case amounts.
I've not caught up on the full thread, so apologies if this has already been covered, but the principle point is that this relates to the amounts owed against the EBTs because if we had received the correct bill, then the club wouldn't have been sold to Whyte (who ran up the other tax debts we now owe).

The press aren't talking about those debts because the point is they'd probably never have existed if HMRC hadn't mis-billed us.
 

Arkanoid

Well-Known Member
This 100%. What was the chances of our club being selected as the test case for EBT's ? It was just so strange, and at a time when John Reid was chairman of the fhilth. The rest was as equally shady, right up to Ashley and his decision to run us into the ground that exists to this day. What was it Paul Murray once said post liquidation ? Something along the lines that there was literally nothing they could offer that would secure the club. Funny that, eh. Lets be honest, you don't have albeit failed/flawed fraud investigations and charges for no reason. We were done over, big time.
We all thought it, we all said it now it's all coming out. The biggest thing for me in the whole carve up is the landscape is MASSIVELY different for potential buyers than the detestable scum in Whyte and Green that came in
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
A ban we should not have had in the first place?
Yeah.

We got an effective ban for the Company not having three years worth of audited accounts. We revert back to oldco, we'd have no audited accounts since 2012 (I think, others can confirm).
 

47blue

Well-Known Member
Hmm...I have suggested all along that King was a very shrewd man whom I suspected was keeping what he knows close to his chest until the appropriate time...We may just be seeing the prelude to that appropriate time.

This is dynamite! The reality is that someone is to blame and that someone is only a cog in the machinery of the entire conspiracy to put Rangers FC out of business. I never really believed Kings ‘house of cards’ jibe was related to the football side of the filth.

Once they collar the perpetrator at HMRC, I suspect the squealing will start, that for me is the house of cards to which King has alluded. I really suspect and hope that King has been playing the long game with the filth and their place men with a poker face...Perhaps the house of cards is indeed about to fall!

I cannot believe that King did not know this was coming, to that end it will be very interesting to see how and when he responds on behalf of Rangers.
I sincerely hope that you are correct.
 

Macdonsj

Well-Known Member
if you don' think forces were working against us, i'm staggered

- Debt is at a manageable level & reducing in line with the bank (albeit with Murray Group in trouble)
- HMRC launch EBT crusade 10 years after we declare using them, just as Reid talks of nailing us to the floor
- Lloyds move the goalposts (Fullerton) and place Muir on the board to begin the kill
- HMRC float a (now known to be inflated) figure that puts off potential buyers
- Whyte appears, buys us for the mythical pound and an agreement to meet certain payments due (a man with a history of not paying)
- with the EBT "bill" not being enought to condemn us, Whyte stops paying taxes in that current season to facilitate a move to administration - EBTs alone couldn't do that
- SPL/SPFL (whatever they were that day) - use unprecedented punishment to further hamstring us
- this opens the door for Green (and Ashley) to come in and pick the bones - facilitated by the dodgy administrators who ignore "blue" offers in favour of the (now known) toxic one

1) playing squad dismantled without renumeration
2) prize money stolen
3) european football denied
4) league status falsely stolen
5) loss of attendance money with reduced ticketing
6) years rebuilding with the likes of Ashley taking our finances


if only a prominent MSP was responsible for the area Ibrox sits
someone with a history of "raging against the UK machine"?
 

govwalker

Well-Known Member
The ONLY thing that tipped us well over the edge in terms of solvency was the enormous tax bill claimed by HMRC, leaked and blogged by illegal actions of HMRC and others, and whipped onto a frenzy by a baying mob of tarriers, Rangers haters and gleefully reported as widely as possible by an array of mhedia PAPErs and scum, all encouraged and emboldened by John Reid and his cronies in high places.

We were never insolvent, never over spent beyond our ability to manage our debts, never cheated and were guilty, at worst, of taking some mildly poor tax advice, which we offered to settle.

All of it motivated by hatred and vengeance. Heads must absolutely roll over this and don’t let any politicians who stuck in the boot forget us when we all vote shortly.
Defo mate.

Starting with the likes of that bastard Reid, Brian Wilson etc.

Then the SFA and SPL

And everyone of the Taig journalists from Mad Phil, Alex Thomson, the Fat Cow Haggerty. The lot of them done for liability and lies against Our club.

I want everyone of these c*nts Ended, buried, wiped out, finished for good.
 
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