Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.

There’s no long leap. The tax authorities don’t just happen to get a £50M tax bill wrong by accident for crying out loud.
 
As well as HMRC we really need to go after Scottish football for this.
All the punishments were way over the top, we lost players, revenue and reputation because of these fuckers.
The other clubs went after us with glee. It’s now time to hit back and hit back hard.
Go after them with all we have, bring the whole lot to their knees begging us for mercy
 
When we issued the CVA it was HMRC who blocked it because they had over a certain percentage of the total debt (75% is the threshold I think). What was their debt estimated at when they blocked the CVA? If it was the higher number, could they still have blocked the CVA had their share of the debt been stated as this lower number?
 
Can you let me know what he says - stuck in work and cant hear it.
Not much mate. More or less that we could have handled a debt of £20m on EBTs and would have been more attractive to buy. Where the %^*& HMRC got £75M owed, %^*& me! Bunch of cvnts!
 
Green and Whyte, how coincidental I think not.

It's no coincidence that the authorities made an arse of procecution of all involved.
There really should be an public inquiry into what went on.
I'm sure you wouldn't have to search to far to find links between Reid, Ashley, and certain people at Hmrc and Lloyd's.
Green and Whyte will only be convenient lackeys for more powerful people
 
As sure as day follows night a mentally challenged has already contacted Talksport to challenge what Ally has just said.

Regardless of rights or wrongs it doesn't matter what happens to us it would never ever be enough for the cult.
 
Ha ha, so they are suggesting HMRC are being ‘pragmatic’ and are conceding because they would never get their money anyway?

Just like they were ‘pragmatic’ back in 2011 when Murray offered an initial payment of £10m and they rejected it on the basis they’d rather see the company go to the wall and receive pennies in the pound instead?

Aye, HMRC are renowned for their ‘pragmatism’ right enough.:rolleyes:

To be honest, as regards the penalty clauses this might be true.

as regards the grossing up issue - I doubt it. It would surely be worth their while getting the authority from the Tribunal/Court that you gross up EBT payments for future cases -even if there’s no money for them in this one - if they really thought that’s how the calculation should be done.
 
Sadly, I reckon this HMRC scandal will be reduced to a minor story in the tabloids, a one day wonder, then swept under the carpet. Before and for months on end on a daily basis, any Rangers hater was given a public platform to denounce our club concerning this tax bill. Where are the MP's and MSP's ?
 
i would argue getting the sums wrong by a figure of 50,000,000 is a deliberate act
The important part is getting the truth of what went on. This miscalculation is unbelievable and the sums of money involved afterwards in addition to the £50m - loss of European football, Scottish prize money, sponsorship, the assets in the value of the squad - are huge.
Think we can kiss goodbye to a lot of that, although worth pursuing, but I'd be happier if the full truth came out about what went on within the HMRC and who were the key decision makers.
 
I don't have a clue as to the effect this has on the club today. But by God, I'm raging at the agony we've all been through over the last 7 years and what was it for, because of HMRC incompetence? I'm not buying that, we were deliberately done over and the only thing I want from this revelation is a full public enquiry into how this all came about, and who was driving it.
 
So we have been royally fucked by HMRC, Murray, Lloyds TSB, Whyte, Green and his cronies, Ashley, our Governing Body, our memberclubs and all of their fans. We lost 5 years in top flight football, the chance of having a legitimate buyer for our club or having Lloyds TSB not start calling for the club to be sold immediately yet I see comment that says we should just move on.

MOVE ON...

You have to be kidding, we need to fight this every way we can. Our club was banished, laughed at, called cheats, made like we done the UK out of £60-90m of Tax Money that could've went to hospitals. We have lost revenue, reputation, jobs, shares.

If we can sue these fuckers then fucking sue them for every single penny the old company can get, if we can merge the old and new company then great but not holding out hope on that.

I said at the time when we only get £9m tax bill for the EBT's, how there was such a big difference from what was being claimed. 65m and 90m were figures that were being banded about in the media clearly from poet sources within HMRC. How can there be such a difference between what we paid and what was claimed we owed? I think we should be looking into the individuals who were leading the investigations and what their motivations were?
 
HMRC BLOCKED A CVA FFS

Correct. Another point missed by those saying it means nothing because Craig Whyte etc.

HMRC were allowed the box seat as main creditor as they were claiming £96 million. Therefore it didn't matter a dam what other creditors voted for, HMRC had the power and used the power to block the CVA and initiate liquidation

In the times today it's outlined their claim is nowhere near the £96million originally reported
 
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.

Theres people been living with it for 8 years knowing we were absolutely stitched up

When someones got a gun to your head your only thought is survival and from a media standpoint its the only story to report.

And even before the gun was fired and hit the wrong part of us.

You know the Celtic chairman was part of the Labour Government Cabinet at the same time this all started.

HMRC dealt with Arsenal and refused any deal with Rangers. And their Rangers figure was now said to be wildly wrong.

Come on, have you really led that sheltered a life not to see whats screaming at you here.
 
Could shareholders of the old company have a claim against HMRC as their mistake made the old shares worthless and people list money?
 
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.

Well as soon as you find any other examples of where HMRC have made a similar mistake which has led to the liquidation of a business and commensurate job losses etc, be sure to let us all know.
 
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
HMRC got nothing wrong mate. HMRC is basically a badge and a legal entity. People working on behalf of HMRC got it wrong. Individuals. They should be targeted and held accountable. You dont send a knife to jail for a stabbing.
 
Today’s news is no great surprise. A great source of irritation for the club and its fans and provoking much anger, rightfully. But no surprise. The surprising bit of it is that it’s managed to hit the press, for which we should be thankful.

The bigger question is why it has taken so long to determine this overcalculation occurred, and why capable tax minds couldn’t have determined this at the time, to stop the scenario that unfolded from happening?

I will await next steps with interest, but not with any great expectation of proper compensation.
 
Right,

I have read the BDO report.

Would be delighted if someone could confirm my interpretation of same.

HMRC initially claimed for £94M as part of the Liquidation claim.

£74M of this was related to the EBT issue, commonly known as the Big Tax Case.

The penalty element of that £74M claim amounted to £24M and the claim for this element was withdrawn. HMRC also admitted to having miscalculated other elements and therefore the total claim from the HMRC, £94M actually reduced to C.£64M

There was therefore a reductions of circa £30M in the overall claim by HMRC.

If the sum sits at Circa £64M in the round, are we now saying there is a further sum to be wiped off this or is the news story really just a rehash of the creditors report?

Further points to note.

Ticketus were owed significant sums, £26.7M from memory.

The current administrators are suing the previous administrators for £27M for wrong advice.

The only people who will really win is BDO and the other parties appointed but were there to be significant litigation, then it is possible the pot would end up in surplus... If's but's and maybe's unfortunately.
The letter also states that BDO are challenging the remaining sum
 
Ticketus would never have been sold out season ticket money as Craig whyte would have been knowhere near Ibrox in the first place.
U are not getting this

HMRC wanted and quoted 134 million when it should have been 20
Suggest you calm down mate, at no point have I had a go at you. The figures you continue to state are widely inaccurate.
 
OK, I have went through the oldco accounts.

The following was paid to EBT's
2000​
0​
2001​
1010000​
2002​
5176000​
2003​
6791000​
2004​
7252000​
2005​
7241000​
2006​
9192000​
2007​
4988000​
2008​
2291000​
2009​
2360000​
2010​
1358000​
Total
47659000​


That isn't the tax - that is the amount paid.

I am no tax expert - but, for the sake of arguements, if you say the tax/ni liability is 60%, then that comes in at £28595400

That is surely manageable?
 
Don’t think it would. If all assets from new company were transferred then so would all contract and liabilities
However...Could King place newco into administration because of the debt to him, and pre-pack everything to the oldco? Shedding every single contract in the process?


Not saying he should, before anyone starts, but I am pretty certain that would work.
 
Cut that pish out, makes us look like clowns
You don't feel cheated mate no? The shit we have had to endure with collectively for the last 7 years would have made many a team lose everything as has happened in the past, that was what it was planned for our destruction a wee convenient way of ending sectarianism in Scotland and a poke in the eye for the unionists here, in my eyes we have a right to go for the throat in this matter as it could have ENDED us.
 
Some amount of tin hats in this thread.

The only thing we know for sure right now is that HMRC got it wrong. It's a long leap from there to a conspiracy.

Stranger things have happened of course but let's not get ahead of ourselves and deal with the news as it comes.
A mistake is adding a few quid or putting a decimal point in the wrong place. What appears to have happened here is that a wildly inflated number has not only be arrived at, it has been checked, signed off and pursued through courts 3 or 4 times. It is harder to see that as a genuine mistake than a deliberate act in truth.
 
The lack of Scottish media interest in this monumental scandal committed by HMRC is disturbing and quite telling. BBC Scotland news website has no mention of it whatsoever, and apart from a minor article on Page 4 of the Scottish Sun, there is nothing. Compare and contrast with the years of Rangers bashing regarding EBT's.
 
Based on the last official report from the liquidators in June, the original claim from HMRC was for £94m (see below for high level breakdown), as things stand today their existing claim is £68m (also see below). The reduction of £26m is the decision by HMRC not to the pursue the penalties (£24m) and an adjustment to previous calculations for £2m. Both these claims (the £94m and £68m) are prepared on the grossing up basis, there is still a dispute over whether this the appropriate basis for the assessment to be raised, as previously mentioned on here HMRC are highly unlikely to "roll over" on this one due the consequences for 100's of other ongoing EBT cases if the principle is defeated. The press are reporting the best case scenario potential liability if the grossing up basis is defeated and the £68m is reduced considerably further.

£M£M
Original HMRC Claim £ 94
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC £ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC £ 38
Penalties £ 24
Interest £ 12 £ 74
Total Claim £ 94


£M£M
Current HMRC Claim £ 68
Explained By:
Unpaid PAYE/VAT/NIC £ 20
Big Tax Case
PAYE/NIC £ 36
Penalties £ -
Interest £ 12 £ 48
Total Claim £ 68
 
A mistake is adding a few quid or putting a decimal point in the wrong place. What appears to have happened here is that a wildly inflated number has not only be arrived at, it has been checked, signed off and pursued through courts 3 or 4 times. It is harder to see that as a genuine mistake than a deliberate act in truth.
That being said I still don’t understand how anyone on the oldco side didn’t counter it before now which is why the current administrator are suing the previous for £28M
 
Even if some sort of court cases were to come of it, I doubt it'd be positive. Look at the Craig Whyte trial for example. Far too complex for a jury and no chance of justice.

Sickening what happened to us though.

Loss of players, loss of earnings, liquidated, called cheats, campaigns to have titles stripped etc, meanwhile Celtic have had a free crack at the league (and subsequently Champions League) for the best part of a decade.
 
Back
Top