Tax Officials Blamed For Rangers Downfall – HMRC Mistake Wipes Millions From Ibrox Bill (The Times)

IndianaRanger said:
Why is this only breaking now? I read somewhere that this information was released back in December 2018?
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Most of it was in the BDO update to creditors in June 2019. Wasn't in the December 2018 update.

I’m guessing - nothing more - there have been further concessions from HMRC. Next BDO update is due early next month.

EDIT: Just checked, it WAS actually confirmed in the December 2018 update.
 
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I just had a wee thought and I wonder if anyone can tell me it is wrong...


Courts have proven that the club has an unbroken history and has simply changed hands.

Does that not mean, that as the same entity, legal recourse could actually come from the club as it stands today instead of the parent company?

If the courts (and literally everyone else in the world except one sub-species of semi-humans) accept that Rangers now is the same as Rangers then, can Rangers, rather than RIFC not pursue damages for loss of income, reputational damage, asset stripping etc as a direct consequence of HMRC making an 'honest mistake'?
 
There WILL be an audit trail behind the penalty/assessments. There will have been a process of ‘governance’ leading up to these demands - this was not a single rogue employee. A sum of this magnitude and the sensitivity around Rangers FC will have been subject to several layers of scrutiny.
 
Sorry if previously mentioned. But IIRC we sold Jelavic for 9m which disappeared. Davis was sold, but we never saw the money. How much of that 18m could have been paid off just with those, 15-16m. We are talking about an amount of cash we could raise in a day by selling Alfie. Yet, we've been accused of living beyond our means.
 
The difficulty is in who actually benefits from any potential legal recourse. Craig Whyte owned the company. His actions 100% plunged us further into the mire but he will argue that the false liability caused the subsequent issues with respect to becoming insolvent. ‘His company’ was liquidated on the back of a false claim.

Murray’s argument would be that he was forced into selling a company full of assets for £1 and that they effectively made his shareholding worthless with a false liability.

Shareholders like King etc are in the same position. The legal issue will be absolutely proving that their mistake caused everything that followed. Now we all know it did but the law is ridiculously complex with respect to these things. Also, HMRC will be protected by language such as expected liability and will also claim lack of cooperation etc from us resulted in it being impossible to determine the exact bill.

known our luck we’d win a case and end up back in the hands of Craig Whyte with our league registration transferred back to the oldco!
 
ArfieldGer said:
From Editor of The Times Scotland:

Working on a significant story involving @RangersFC and the taxman.
From Editor of The Times Scotland:

Working on a significant story involving @RangersFC and the taxman. See Thursday's @thetimesscot in print or online for more ....

Hmmmm





ADMIN EDIT - FRONT PAGE IMAGE

















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Any chance you can change the title of the thread, the part where it says wipes off millions and make it as it was that they allegedly made a mistake by adding millions that caused the damage to our club?

"Added on millions!".
 
Sancus said:
There WILL be an audit trail behind the penalty/assessments. There will have been a process of ‘governance’ leading up to these demands - this was not a single rogue employee. A sum of this magnitude and the sensitivity around Rangers FC will have been subject to several layers of scrutiny.
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Exactly

everyone involved should be sacked

bigotry plain and simple

name and shame

there must be bears with this information get it leaked from somewhere
 
My neighbour received a tax rebate.. He's barely held a job longer than a month.. Shows HMRC are a bunch of c unts for the lack of a better word.
 
monkey magic said:
Sadly, that seems to be the attitude of the Scottish media this morning. This monumental scandal involving HMRC , which would attract outrage and banner headlines if involving a top English club, has barely caused a ripple of interest outside our fans forums. I knew Scotland was now corrupt to the hilt, today just confirms it.
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Imagine if this story came out about another Glasgow based or Scottish company... who had went through something similar. The media in Scotland would be raging. The SNP would prob use it as an independence against England.
 
Portadown_Bear said:
To be fair its pretty obvious what has happened here and happens every day of the week.

HMRC claim there has been unpaid tax. They raise an assessment with a huge amount of interest and penalties to frighten the life from the tax payer. By doing this they hope the taxpayer will enter into negotiations in order to strike a deal. If they don't they expect even if they win the unpaid tax case the excess penalties will be struck off by the judge.

Rangers didn't enter negotiations as they thought they would win the case based on the legal advice.

HMRC then didn't know what to do when the judge gave them everything they wanted including the excess penalties so they've rowed back from their earlier position.
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I was under the impression that Murray offered in the region of £20m to settle, the amount was similar in ratio to debt that HMRC accepted from Arsenal as settlement but they rejected Murray's offer
 
Dougie Gray said:
For those who remember, my wife worked for the club at the time of admin and all that unravelled afterwards. It was brutal for her and her colleagues.
She’s moved on now but I’ll never forget how much of an impact it had on her and her pals/colleagues.
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likewise my uncle worked at Ibrox for a good few decades he managed to keep his job till health decided otherwise. He sadly died while working our way back up the leagues, makes me sad how his tme at rangers finished and where we were as a club.
 
derek145 said:
I was under the impression that Murray offered in the region of £20m to settle, the amount was similar in ratio to debt that HMRC accepted from Arsenal as settlement but they rejected Murray's offer
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I could be wrong but I had thought Murray's offer was to settle the whole case (including that against MIH) which was a much higher figure.

I stand to be corrected on that though.
 
carlosapicella said:
Ouch!well said bear!
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We win the war when;

We win 55
We are awarded north of 55m in lost revenue from HMRC.
The perpetrators are named shamed and dealt with by the courts

The fans use their block vote to destroy the SNP.
The fans use their block vote to have a unionist party to represent their interests.

The victims of the abuse at CBC are suitably compensated, looked after and receive all the help they need
The industrial scale abuse caused or ignored by among others, Celtic football club, results in consummate penalties, decided by the proper legal channels.
 
BlueSeaOfIbrox said:
We should sue them all into oblivion

The damage caused by these rats are still effecting out club 7 years on. No amount of money would help repair but it'd be a start and they deserve to be punished

They've tried to destroy our club and we're still standing strong and ready to win 55.

Between damage to our club, harming our reputation and the financial loss we have suffered over the years we deserve to take them all to the cleaners
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We will end up finding out they got OBE or MBE for work fone for the crown.
 
RWL12 said:
Imagine if this story came out about another Glasgow based or Scottish company... who had went through something similar. The media in Scotland would be raging. The SNP would prob use it as an independence against England.
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My thoughts also.

The Natz hate anything to do with the UK or HM Government and seldom miss an opportunity to give examples of where anything Scottish has been hard done by.

Their silence on this has been deafening. Why aren't they calling for a full Public Enquiry?

That of course is a rhetorical question. They know that the vast majority of their votes come from Republican RC's and doing anything which could in any way be seen as being helpful to RFC or Unionists, is simply not an option.
 
I feel quite sad over this whole thing. Scottish football has changed forever as a result of this.
People at Rangers lost their jobs, players who might have gone on to be legends left the club, and we've had to suffer seeing Celtic win everything without any competition yet bragging as if they're kings of the f8cking world.
On top of that, there is the way the media has changed towards us. Where I felt they were quite fair, and balanced in their views over Us and Them, in recent years we have been seen as whipping boys - fair game for all to have a pop at. Just listen to SSB or watch Sportscene these days and think back to how it was ten years ago. It's night and day - I used to enjoy those things, but now can't bear to watch or listen because it's always skewed against us by the likes of Keevins and Michael Stewart.
As a result, I feel like the enjoyment I once had in football has been eroded so my experience of the Scottish sport is night and day from what it was a decade ago.

Someone should pay for this but the sad thing is, no matter what happens now, things will never be the same as they were before.
 
Now we can assume the reason the SPL changed to a different body as well.As someone earlier said if we cant get the SPL,HMRC etc we must chase individuals no matter how high or low they were in the attempts to kill us off and get they sued and jailed for a totally illegal pursuit of our club.
 
GodStruth said:
As I've said before, its all about money - follow the money

One club has been in effective control of Scottish football for 10 years. One club have made an absolute fortune as a result of what happened to us. Those behind that club do not care one iota for Scottish football- it is mere collateral damage to them

If people seriously believe that this all happened by accident then their heads truly button up the back
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I don't believe this was an accident either mate.

We need proof though.
 
BackJardine said:
Most of the time when big businesses or institutions fail to protect children and allow them to be abused knowingly from within and try to cover up and cheat the system, the media holds them to account. Except in Scotland, where when Celtic do it they somehow become the victim of the piece. This narrow minded loyalty blindspot is a journalistic embarrassment.
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Brilliant retort.
Wish I’d posted it.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
lawyers and admin will make millions, but the reward will be massive Im sure to allow those last in the que like you and I to be repaid what we are due.
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I hope you and other honourable companies and fans do get something back.

I am owed nothing in a monetary sense but my rewards would be seeing our reputation back to where it should be, the story of how we were part of a fraud and attempt to kill us told, and, finally, those part of that attempt being named and brought to justice.
 
douzpwa said:
Any chance you can change the title of the thread, the part where it says wipes off millions and make it as it was that they allegedly made a mistake by adding millions that caused the damage to our club?

"Added on millions!".
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Believe Admin has done so.
 
If I’m being honest the only thing I’m interested in all of this is getting the ‘leak’ who manipulated the situation exposed and hounded for the bigot they are.

No amount of money gained from legal against HMRC brings back 10 deducted points, eradicates defeats to Alloa, re-employed lost staff.
 
Bluecares said:
I hope you and other honourable companies and fans do get something back.

I am owed nothing in a monetary sense but my rewards would be seeing our reputation back to where it should be, the story of how we were part of a fraud and attempt to kill us told, and, finally, those part of that attempt being named and brought to justice.
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I was a small stakeholder, If it was arranged for someone to represent all small debit holders etc. I would award any money due to Club 1872. In fact I wonder if this is something that could be pursued. If it was financially viable for them to do.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
I just had a wee thought and I wonder if anyone can tell me it is wrong...


Courts have proven that the club has an unbroken history and has simply changed hands.

Does that not mean, that as the same entity, legal recourse could actually come from the club as it stands today instead of the parent company?

If the courts (and literally everyone else in the world except one sub-species of semi-humans) accept that Rangers now is the same as Rangers then, can Rangers, rather than RIFC not pursue damages for loss of income, reputational damage, asset stripping etc as a direct consequence of HMRC making an 'honest mistake'?
Click to expand...

"Honest mistake" my arse mate.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
I was a small stakeholder, If it was arranged for someone to represent all small debit holders etc. I would award any money due to Club 1872. In fact I wonder if this is something that could be pursued. If it was financially viable for them to do.
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I read you saying that in another post and that is a great thing to do.
I know for all us fans it is not about the money.
I do hope your suggestion is taken up and a claim can be made and won.
 
Let’s not pay our tax bills in protest :)) i was only a Young nipper but remember the “we’r no paying Oor taxes, we’r no paying oor taxes, an na na na, na na na na” chants in the 80’s the “Thatcher” years, good times.
 
Forth Bear said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1195031687501144064
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So, no real change since BDOs June 2019 update which informed us HMRC has conceded an overcharge of £26m (which didn’t attract half the attention The Times report has).

It does make you wonder why The Times chose to go with this today when they could have run the same story back in June. Is it because the other angle to this is the reported letters to players and other participants in the EBT scheme saying they will not be pursued?

If BDO say no more concessions have been agreed yet, then that appears to me to be the only genuinely new part of the story. And even that isn’t confirmed yet.

All very odd. Unless The Times have a follow-up story. I wonder. Could they have more news on this?
 
Valley Bluenose said:
So, no real change since BDOs June 2019 update which informed us HMRC has conceded an overcharge of £26m (which didn’t attract half the attention The Times report has).

It does make you wonder why The Times chose to go with this today when they could have run the same story back in June. Is it because the other angle to this is the reported letters to players and other participants in the EBT scheme saying they will not be pursued?

If BDO say no more concessions have been agreed yet then that appears to me to be the only genuinely new part of the story. And even that isn’t confirmed yet.

All very odd. Unless The Times have a follow-up story. I wonder. Could they have more news on this?
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Agree. Yet again half a story. Unless something new comes out, until the actual amount is confirmed , I’ll hold my tongue. As usual the fans are dicked about while the clarity is up for debate.
 
Portadown_Bear said:
To be fair its pretty obvious what has happened here and happens every day of the week.

HMRC claim there has been unpaid tax. They raise an assessment with a huge amount of interest and penalties to frighten the life from the tax payer. By doing this they hope the taxpayer will enter into negotiations in order to strike a deal. If they don't they expect even if they win the unpaid tax case the excess penalties will be struck off by the judge.

Rangers didn't enter negotiations as they thought they would win the case based on the legal advice.

HMRC then didn't know what to do when the judge gave them everything they wanted including the excess penalties so they've rowed back from their earlier position.
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Don’t think this assessment is correct. HMRC lodged a claim with the Administrators, Duff and Duffer, which gave them an ability to Steamroll the Insolvency process through to Liquidation. The Liquidators, BDO, looked at their claim and asked them to substantiate their figure and the rest is now history.

Had Duff and Duffer done their job correctly this position would never have arisen. HMRC failed in their duty of care to old co by incorrectly claiming an incorrect figure, it not a case of rowing back, the claim was wrongly calculated.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
Let's be absolutely straight about this.

It's one thing to miscalculate the bill. It's another entirely to go through several years of aggressive and highly in-depth tribunals at various levels of the court and STILL not recognise the number is incorrect by that level.

When putting their legal cases together, is anyone going to suggest it's the least bit excusable for them to have taken us through that process and never be sure they got their numbers right?
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Furthermore why has it taken BDO to spot this and challenge HMRC to the point that they cave and admit their wrongs?
Why did Duff & Phelps not spot this and challenge on the same principles?
Did Duff & Phelps fail in their professional duties? Is their recourse against them too?

lots of litigation opportunities in order to seek damages!
 
WATP said:
Furthermore why has it taken BDO to spot this and challenge HMRC to the point that they cave and admit their wrongs?
Why did Duff & Phelps not spot this and challenge on the same principles?
Did Duff & Phelps fail in their professional duties? Is their recourse against them too?

lots of litigation opportunities in order to seek damages!
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BDO are suing Duff and Phelps for £28m according to their correspondence to Creditors. It’s linked earlier in the thread. Remains to be seen if that gets anywhere.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
So, no real change since BDOs June 2019 update which informed us HMRC has conceded an overcharge of £26m (which didn’t attract half the attention The Times report has).

It does make you wonder why The Times chose to go with this today when they could have run the same story back in June. Is it because the other angle to this is the reported letters to players and other participants in the EBT scheme saying they will not be pursued?

If BDO say no more concessions have been agreed yet, then that appears to me to be the only genuinely new part of the story. And even that isn’t confirmed yet.

All very odd. Unless The Times have a follow-up story. I wonder. Could they have more news on this?
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interesting, hopefully, you are right regarding players etc, and the times have all information checked.
 
WATP said:
Furthermore why has it taken BDO to spot this and challenge HMRC to the point that they cave and admit their wrongs?
Why did Duff & Phelps not spot this and challenge on the same principles?
Did Duff & Phelps fail in their professional duties? Is their recourse against them too?

lots of litigation opportunities in order to seek damages!
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at the time there were a lot of gobsmacked faces regarding what was going on. In fact some were in roundabout ways suggesting as if it was near criminal if memory serves me right.
 
Gallant_Few said:
This was a well executed and concerted effort to destroy our club and hand Celtic a free passage to years and years worth of trophies and prize money.

Make no mistake this was targeted and intentional.
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It also cost the Club 4 years in the lower leagues and leaving the schum every opportunity to make a fortune with us well and truly out of the way plus us losing quality players and listening to Liewell blowing his horn about them and their sporting integrity ( Aye Right ! ) well there not blowing so much now about their wonderful club with their tainted titles but let us never forget all those who stuck the boot in and never let up on this shower till the truth comes out . I hope the board take this the whole road and I wish our Board every success in getting justice and help us get back where we belong .
 
When was the Club made aware of the tax bill figure? Genuine question as I can’t remember.

Reading back through old articles and interviews from around the takeover period I read Alastair Johnson say in April 2011 (a month before the takeover) that he had no idea of the figure or the liability we faced. He said that it could’ve been October or November 2011, well after the takeover, before they found out.

He maintained that the uncertainty of the liability would deter investment but didn’t mention the figure itself. Also Lloyds supposedly told Murray in April 2010 that he had a year to sell Rangers and that he could retain ownership of his metals business in doing so.

The narrative of the court case seemed to be that Murray sold to Whyte solely on the pretence that Whyte would take on the stranglehold that Lloyds had over us and that Murray could be left to his metals business.

It sounds to me like Murray would’ve sold to Whyte regardless of the tax figure because Lloyds had been pushing him to sell before the crackdown on EBTs had even begun.
 
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