"That's what it's all about"? Football songs, religious hatred and the strange case of the "Hokey Cokey"

mdingwall

Administrator
In December 2008, it was reported that the children’s party song The Hokey Cokey could be banned at football matches in Scotland due to its supposedly sectarian content. These reports came after concerted efforts by footballing organisations, Scottish politicians, the Scottish judiciary and several NGOs to prevent football fans singing certain songs; these efforts were part of a wider programme aiming to end sectarian tensions and violence between some fans of arch-rivals Glasgow Celtic and Glasgow Rangers. Using insights from music sociology, and based on analysis of media reporting and of fans’ comments on the issue in internet fora, this article argues that songs and other participatory musical practices are far from a peripheral issue here. They are central to fans’ experience and identities, but can thus also perpetuate discriminatory attitudes where, by tradition or implication, the songs attack the religious or ethnic identities of rival supporters. Tracing developing attitudes to problematic songs, the article argues that there is growing but still insufficient awareness of how musical and other cultural practices can become sites of tension in an intergroup conflict. Moreover, there is a significant risk of increasing rather than decreasing tension when their use is subject to restrictions or even criminal sanctions, and this needs to be taken into account when formulating initiatives and measures to resolve conflicts. Analysis of attititudes to this issue in the fan communities and the media also points to persistent and widespread public misunderstandings on issues surrounding necessary and proportional restrictions of freedom of expression. Moreover, uncritical media reporting of attempts to curtail inciteful and provocative practices can be part of the problem rather than solution.

 

Southernlion

Well-Known Member
If you want religious hatred read the rest of that paper. Deliberate religious insults rather than peripheral.

The hatred expressed of John Knox is a prime example. The man who introduced universal education some 300 years earlier than England is traduced by those nationalists whose prime contribution to society is hatred
 

legalbeagle

Well-Known Member
It was one of the more bizarre episodes. A desire to ban a song being sung by fans who had never sung it, for a context that is debatable and words that are sung in the American version not the British one. It was basically trying to encourage people to do something that had never done before, just so that people could be offended by it.
Truly baffling.
 

bluewonder

Well-Known Member
I remember it was the headline on Scotland today about the hokey cokey being offensive to RCs. John McKay was cringing when reading this out live on air, probably thinking to himself wtf is this all about
 

Let’s Go

Well-Known Member
For me sectarianism isn’t ‘that’ much of a problem in Scotland.

sure you will get anecdotal tales of ‘I didn’t get a job because of...’ from the offended party which is largely an extension of people claiming nepotism or cronyism

For real sectarian behaviour see Iraq where people are lined up and made to lie down to be shot dead - that’s sectarianism, not someone chanting %^*& the pope or soon there will be no Protestants at all; those singing it may be misguided in ways but I doubt they truly want the death of the person of the opposite religion (which is likely perceived religion in this country as most people are not religious and attend any church/worship)

an example of this was when that bellend tried to drop kick Lennon, it wasn’t because the guy perceived Lennon to be catholic - he didn’t like Lennon and was probably mortal and thought it was a good idea at the time.

Yet they tried to say it was sectarian - when it turned it the chap was of the same religion (but perceived as I doubt either are actual church goers)
 

bearspakora

Well-Known Member
For me sectarianism isn’t ‘that’ much of a problem in Scotland.

sure you will get anecdotal tales of ‘I didn’t get a job because of...’ from the offended party which is largely an extension of people claiming nepotism or cronyism

For real sectarian behaviour see Iraq where people are lined up and made to lie down to be shot dead - that’s sectarianism, not someone chanting %^*& the pope or soon there will be no Protestants at all; those singing it may be misguided in ways but I doubt they truly want the death of the person of the opposite religion (which is likely perceived religion in this country as most people are not religious and attend any church/worship)

an example of this was when that bellend tried to drop kick Lennon, it wasn’t because the guy perceived Lennon to be catholic - he didn’t like Lennon and was probably mortal and thought it was a good idea at the time.

Yet they tried to say it was sectarian - when it turned it the chap was of the same religion (but perceived as I doubt either are actual church goers)
Being denied employment due to not being RC and overt RC corruption and nepotism is " not that much of a problem " ? You really think that ? Tell that to the community in Airdrie during the Monklandsgate scandal. Unemployment rates were horrific at that time.
 

RabSpackman

Well-Known Member
It was one of the more bizarre episodes. A desire to ban a song being sung by fans who had never sung it, for a context that is debatable and words that are sung in the American version not the British one. It was basically trying to encourage people to do something that had never done before, just so that people could be offended by it.
Truly baffling.
It was a strange time.

“Why Don’t You Go Home?” written and clearly takes the piss out of those claiming that they only live in Scotland because distant relatives moved there as a result of the Potato Famine and it is quickly re-branded as “The Famine Song” and roundly criticised to the point of being made “illegal”.
 

Timardim

Well-Known Member
Yet we (Scotland) still separate children at age 5 to allow some to attend state funded RC schools.

If we are serious about removing / reducing sectarianism then this has to be addressed.

Football rivalry will continue thankfully.
The Roman Catholic church want separate schooling because their ethos is that no other religions matters , and they don't want R. C. Children to be educated in a non R.C. environment , in mainstream schooling . This smacks of bigotry but for some reason is never discussed in depth..?
 

zammo

Member
I would advise everyone to go read the hate crime legislation the SNP are trying to pass into law just now. If you think banning the HC was ridiculous this bill will end what little free speech remains in Scotland.
It's scary what they've got planned.
 

602-Squadron

Active Member
Think with the internet these days, that people who sit at home bored watching some daft conspiracy programme get stupid thoughts in their head.

Something they wouldn't come out with down the pub as theyd get laughed out the door.

Now with social media these people announce the nonsence in their heads to the world and some of the same mindset go along with it, then it becomes fact.

Real sectarianism as the earlier poster said is in iraq or more recently in the Balkans, where hate runs so deep that neighbour will slaughter neighbour.

People who spread nonsence like penny arcade and hokey cokey are either unwell or out and out mischief makers.

The world can be a simple place, just give people the same respect that you'd expect back. Unfortunately that seems to be too much for some people.
 
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bearspakora

Well-Known Member
It was a strange time.

“Why Don’t You Go Home?” written and clearly takes the piss out of those claiming that they only live in Scotland because distant relatives moved there as a result of the Potato Famine and it is quickly re-branded as “The Famine Song” and roundly criticised to the point of being made “illegal”.
Go on home,British soldiers, go on home

Go home, you huns, go home

Send them homewards ( the English ) to think again

No complaints from Scottish politicians or ant-racism charities up here concerning any of the above being heard at football matches.
 

eastneuk56

Well-Known Member
They are a strange group of people, I have been in lodge with persons I know who are dyed in the wool tims. Even know one who became master of a lodge. It is safe to say they probably are better people by their association with better people.
 

Caldow3

Well-Known Member
I would advise everyone to go read the hate crime legislation the SNP are trying to pass into law just now. If you think banning the HC was ridiculous this bill will end what little free speech remains in Scotland.
I would also hope anyone considering voting SNP.......DON'T!!!!!
 

Lairdo

Active Member
I can provide numerous instances of sectarianism in employment and housing in Glasgow over the years. Always perpetrated by them. (Anyone old enough to remember Pat Lally’s “home for votes scandal?”).
 

Calvinist

Well-Known Member
The current SNP justice minister pictured below





Identifies his priorities for his post , and bears vote for this party . Mind how you go

 

mark hateley

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
It was one of the more bizarre episodes. A desire to ban a song being sung by fans who had never sung it, for a context that is debatable and words that are sung in the American version not the British one. It was basically trying to encourage people to do something that had never done before, just so that people could be offended by it.
Truly baffling.
We did sing it at the piggery next time we played them.

0-0 February 2009.
 

bearspakora

Well-Known Member
Scotlands worst ever incident of sectarianism was when a man from Bradford travelled to Glasgow to murder a Shawlands shopkeeper who was a moderate muslim who wished merry christmas to his costumers. Humza Yosef was no where to be seen, the Glasgow mosque leaders didnt condemn it, but aye the Hokey Cokey, eggs Benedict, red socks, bouncy bouncy etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...murder-glasgow-shopkeeper-in-sectarian-attack
Mr Useless's silence on this sectarian murder was deafening. He's also kept his mouth firmly clamped during this slave trade statue toppling campaign. That the Muslim slave trade was massive just might have something to do with it ?
 

arnietac1

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
We did sing it at the piggery next time we played them.

0-0 February 2009.
You will need to refresh my memory as i was at this game and cannot remember it being sung at all.
In fact ,although i am aware of a song maybe sung in pubs, supporters buses etc "oh %^*& the popey, popey" that was a play on the words of the song and the original song itself has no sectarian value whatsoever.
I was following Rangers home and away all over Scotland at that time and tbh cannot recall this being sung at an actual game.
It was 11 years ago though.
 

mark hateley

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
You will need to refresh my memory as i was at this game and cannot remember it being sung at all.
In fact ,although i am aware of a song maybe sung in pubs, supporters buses etc "oh %^*& the popey, popey" that was a play on the words of the song and the original song itself has no sectarian value whatsoever.
I was following Rangers home and away all over Scotland at that time and tbh cannot recall this being sung at an actual game.
It was 11 years ago though.
It's the only time I heard this sang.

It was a piss take at them.

For any scum looking in, there was nothing sectarian about a childs song. Weirdos.
 
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