govwalker
Well-Known Member
Mate your wasting your time. He's obviously about 18 years old.
The Greatest Of All Time
- Thread starter Jorg
- Start date
Mate your wasting your time. He's obviously about 18 years old.
muffed ivor
Well-Known Member
Think Puskas and DiStephano of Real Madrid fame would be up there with any of the above. I was lucky enough to be at hampden on that glorious day when these two destroyed Eintracht Frankfurt in the epic 7-3 game. Best game of football ever and I've seen quite a few.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
Nobody wins anything single-handed in football and I didn’t say Maradona did.
Messi has played in an era where there is a far greater concentration of talent at top clubs . He has undoubtedly played with the best midfielders of the era at Barca.
Maradona played with good players but he never had the supporting cast Messi has had at Barca.
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
Yeah but there’s a huge trade off in that defenders now are faster, stronger and more agile. By the way, I’ve seen a lot of footage of Maradona and the treatment he got isn’t half blown out of proportion. Nostalgia is, as it always does with retired players, playing a significant part in the way his career is romanticised.
The games also more tactical and players have to be in top shape. A headcase junkie like Diego wouldn’t top the pile in the modern game, especially with the increased money and media attention.
stevie221
Well-Known Member
The advancement in fitness etc makes the latest players technically superior, but they have little influence on the iconic status or the development of the game.
In 20 years time Messi and Ronaldo (x2) may be almost forgotten among the stream of new and better talent.
Alan Morton "The wee blue devil" was described by many of his contemporaries (and my own grandpa) as "the best player in the world". When I see his giant portrait hanging pride of place in the best stadium in the world I can hardly disagree.
For all the ability of later footballers we cannot forget the pioneers that made the working man's game the beautiful game and the art form we all love.
In 20 years time Messi and Ronaldo (x2) may be almost forgotten among the stream of new and better talent.
Alan Morton "The wee blue devil" was described by many of his contemporaries (and my own grandpa) as "the best player in the world". When I see his giant portrait hanging pride of place in the best stadium in the world I can hardly disagree.
For all the ability of later footballers we cannot forget the pioneers that made the working man's game the beautiful game and the art form we all love.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
Ssshhhhhhh the Fan Boys don't like that
Folk do get worked up on a fun thread don’t they? I only get worked up about Rangers stuff! I am right about Maradona though
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
That’s true and obviously why he’s won far more. But I’m not taking about Messi, I’m taking about the false implication that Maradona toed groups of half decent cloggers to success. It’s simply not true.
govwalker
Well-Known Member
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
You’re saying that to an old guy whose just thrown a tantrum because of my involvement in the thread!
Ironically he’s displaying more fanboy traits that any other participant in this thread.
dt17
The Jay Cartwright of FF
I remember when they said Messi was only good because of Xavi and Iniesta. Xavi left and Messi continued. Iniesta became less important in the team then he left. Messi continued. The other one was Messi relies on Dani Alves, he leaves, Messi continues. Same for Neymar as well.
You're also picking one game to highlight Messi with Argentina. A 3-1 game that meant nothing really.
You should look up the stats of Argentina with and without Messi. Frightening. The only reason they reached the World Cup is because he dragged them there. The main reason they've reached 4 finals is because he dragged them there.
It's a pity in 2010 he had to deal with Maradona as a manager. Screwball.
I can't see it - Messi & Ronaldo have just taken all the records and completely obliterated them.
BTW watch that footage. Look at the absolute state of the standard...it's like watching a pub team. That was the pinnacle of football 60 years ago but the level of ability is dreadful.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
I just think you’re plain wrong on the treatment mate.
That’s fair on defenders but fitness and shape will always improve. If that is the be all and end all, the greatest player of the current era is by definition the greatest player of all time and some kid will be on here in 20 years telling you you’re an old romantic for saying Messi is the best ever.
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
Yeah but I mean that’s why it’s impossible to compare players across generations isn’t it. I wouldn’t argue with anyone who holds the view Maradona is the greatest, I really wouldn’t, he was obviously a special talent. But if they say things like “brutalised, Messi couldn’t take some bad tackles”, or “won the World Cup and scudetto single handedly”, then I’ll contest that because those arguments are bollocks.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
Whatever mate. It’s a parlour game not worth anybody’s anger though. I only know drgriffen on here and as the authority ( along with Brooklyn Blue) on Argieball I say we all defer to them on the Messi Maradona debate.
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JMCK
Well-Known Member
Would love to have seen Maradona play. Didn't he play at Hampden and apparently do something with the ball at the line up before the game started that told everyone they were about to witness someone a bit special? I've heard a story along those lines.
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
People have lined up these obstacles for him since he was about 19! It was can’t score against English sides, then it was cant score for Argentina, then it was cant do it without Xavi, then Iniesta, then Alves and so on. He’s obliterated all of them.
Folk using Argentina as a reason to berate him, he’s led them to 4 finals, he is their top scorer, and in his time playing for Argentina they’ve predomently been a jumbled disorganised mess of individuals led by bang average coaches, or in some cases, loonies like Maradona. Of course the key one to look at is how Argentina fair without him, well the results suggest that they’re hopeless and absolutely dependant on him in a manner no team should depend on one player.
PalefaceRedskin
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you’re first sentence hits the nail on the head mate. I think sometimes we all use exaggerated language straining to make our point. It ends up more black and white than it should be.
The real point should be it’s a privilege to watch them both.
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
Absolutely. I’m not saying Maradona’s not the best or anything like that, I’m just picking apart a couple of the arguments that people regularly use to make his case, because they’re untrue.
But yeah there’s just so many variables in football and so much has changed, you can’t really compare across generations at all, to even speculate what might have happened is tricky too.
stevie221
Well-Known Member
I agree but don't you see that in 30 years time Messi and Ronaldo will also look pedestrian - great in their time but pish compared to what our grandchildren will have? It's the same in every sport. If we're still around we'll also be telling them we used to be quite good - to be honest I was a pish left back in the mid-70's but it's amazing how great I have become over the years!
govwalker
Well-Known Member
Old guy??
Seriously you need help. Your about as funny as a burning orphanage and bright as a blackout. Give up.
Tommy725572
Active Member
Football evolves, Pele was the outstanding player of his generation, Maradona his, Messi and Ronaldo are masters of this period. They all bring or brought outstanding ability to the table and those who witness or witnessed the skills provided, the fans, are the winners.
Danger Zone
Just the tip...
If you remember Maradonna’s prime you’re no spring chicken are you.
Oh I’m not trying to be funny, I’m deadly serious. You can’t come on here implying a player who is physically superior to Maradona, couldn’t cope with some rough tackles, and then try and poke fun at someone else’s intelligence. It’s embarrassing.
carlosapicella
Well-Known Member
You slate teams I don't,!play to your strengths,bet you didn't complain when we reached the Europa cup final!it's not a grudge it's that little twats attitude fine when he's winning(99%))of the time and if it is a grudge then IM old and wise enough to know im right you stick to your opinion,which I respect,and don't give me any lectures on my opinion!
Alex Venters
Well-Known Member
Not me.
Maradona remains the best player I've seen in my 56 years on this earth.
However, for consistency and longevity it's hard to see past Messi.
Bumplittledipper
Well-Known Member
Oh well, seeing as some random bloke has written an article on the internet, we must all be wrong.
Would Argentina wave won the 86 WC without Maradona? A resounding NO. Would Napoli have ever won anything let alone a Serie A without him? NO.
For a single player to have that much influence let alone the sheer skill of him makes him the greatest ever for me and I can even stand the wee khont.
giogaddi
Well-Known Member
Agree with this 100%. It's Messi for me.
giogaddi
Well-Known Member
I think it might have been his debut. My granda was there.
JMCK
Well-Known Member
I'v e seen clips of that game here and there; I think there's a clip on a Maradona tribute compilation.
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
The folk denying Messi are kind of like the sad acts in the lounge declaring they have never watched GoT as if its a badge of honour.
Need to be different from the clearly obvious normal opinion everybody else has.
Need to be different from the clearly obvious normal opinion everybody else has.
Klos the Boss
Well-Known Member
Cruyff
Alex Venters
Well-Known Member
The AC Milan backline Maradona faced were in all probability the finest back four ever to play the game. Oafs you say?
Alex Venters
Well-Known Member
Walt Longmire
Well-Known Member
Looking back at last night's posts, it wasn't the World Cup I was talking about, it was the Workd Cup. (Dead giveaway - I was half pished.)
Fair points, lads.
It's always a good debate - Maradona or Messi - and I guess it always come down to opinion and preference. Truth be told, I actually prefer Cruyff to either of them.
dt17
The Jay Cartwright of FF
It's just quite sad that a grown man still has a chip on his shoulder about a comment that was made over 10 years ago.
Back then we played to our strengths, parked the bus and got a result against Barcelona. If they want to criticise our style of play then fair enough. We play the likes of Kilmarnock & Aberdeen who park the bus and you can check the match threads on here, everyone gives them dogs abuse for their style of play.
dt17
The Jay Cartwright of FF
Fair enough, would Barca have won so much without Messi? I doubt it.
Having only watched Youtube footage of Maradona he looked a special talent in the same mould as Messi.
For anyone who's old enough to remember - why didn't he have a great career? Winning the World Cup is one thing but he never exactly had an amazing club career...
Are you wanting stats or opinions? If you're wanting stats, then you could presumably look up for yourself who is statistically the best player ever, and end all discussion. Which stats do you want? Goals? Assists? How are they weighted? 1 goal = 1.5/2 assists?
Bumplittledipper
Well-Known Member
The thing is, Barcelona probably would have won the majority of things without him because he had/has world class team mates. Maradona played in a Napoli team without that level of quality. The 86 WC side was half decent but nowhere near the level of world champions. Messi has failed to deliver on the International scene on that level. For me that is the difference between the two.
Even so, Ronaldo is a better player than Messi. Everything you get with Messi:goals, assists etc you get with Ronaldo but Ronaldo's physical presence and aeriel threat gives him the edge.
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Mason Boyne
Well-Known Member
You must’ve posted at the time I was typing.
I saw the additional posts after I posted and did read yours.
I apologise my friend and no doubt my auld man would doff his cap to you.
dt17
The Jay Cartwright of FF
Was the Argentina team of 86 worse than the Argentina team of 2014 that got to the final? Genuine question btw as I don't know.
Your second paragraph is mental tbh. Messi is basically a deep lying midfielder who outscores Ronaldo, has more assists, creates more chances, has better vision, is a better dribbler and is probably the best passer in the world. All Ronaldo has in his favour is height/heading and a better record of scoring in the Champions League knockout stages.
I think people often forget that Messi is 3 years younger than Ronaldo as well. When they both retire Messi will be in a league of his own.
Johnny Fontane
Well-Known Member
How did you manage to see Italian fitba in the 80s on TV?
Ulsterbear
Active Member
""going by cold hard stats, goals, assists, medals""
this line for me makes it Ronaldo. but going on pure ability and talent - Messi
this line for me makes it Ronaldo. but going on pure ability and talent - Messi
Laudrup1
Well-Known Member
*picture of God*
But he's won an international tournament which his brother hasn't done and that is a criteria that some use for suggesting that Messi can't be as good as Maradona.
I'm not buying this argument that Maradona played when football was more thuggish and that modern players have it easy now by comparison.
Maradona (and even more so Pele) weren't up against the sheer level of athleticism that modern day players have.
It was easier for someone with the sublime level of skill that Cruyff, Best, Maradona and Pele had to stand out back in the day. Yeah, football could be seen as more brutal at times, but there wasn't as much of the elite as their is now.
To excel to the levels that Messi and Ronaldo do in this day and age above any of their peers is almost beyond comprehension.
R9 did things in his prime I'd never seen before. Before him it was Maradona who was blazing a trail. It's impossible to compare players across generations.
The only real argument of note comes between Messi and Ronaldo since they're playing in the same era and played huge chunks of their career in the same league and against the same teams in the CL.
Even then, it's personal preference. I prefer watching Messi play as I like a traditional winger who beats a man with close control as opposed to someone who is just an utter machine like Ronaldo and uses more power in his game.
Messi / Ronaldo (Portuguese) / Ronaldo (Brazilian) / Maradona / Ronaldinho / Cruyff / Pele / Best / Michael Laudrup / Zidane / for a top 10 in that order if anyone wants an argument!
But he's won an international tournament which his brother hasn't done and that is a criteria that some use for suggesting that Messi can't be as good as Maradona.
I'm not buying this argument that Maradona played when football was more thuggish and that modern players have it easy now by comparison.
Maradona (and even more so Pele) weren't up against the sheer level of athleticism that modern day players have.
It was easier for someone with the sublime level of skill that Cruyff, Best, Maradona and Pele had to stand out back in the day. Yeah, football could be seen as more brutal at times, but there wasn't as much of the elite as their is now.
To excel to the levels that Messi and Ronaldo do in this day and age above any of their peers is almost beyond comprehension.
R9 did things in his prime I'd never seen before. Before him it was Maradona who was blazing a trail. It's impossible to compare players across generations.
The only real argument of note comes between Messi and Ronaldo since they're playing in the same era and played huge chunks of their career in the same league and against the same teams in the CL.
Even then, it's personal preference. I prefer watching Messi play as I like a traditional winger who beats a man with close control as opposed to someone who is just an utter machine like Ronaldo and uses more power in his game.
Messi / Ronaldo (Portuguese) / Ronaldo (Brazilian) / Maradona / Ronaldinho / Cruyff / Pele / Best / Michael Laudrup / Zidane / for a top 10 in that order if anyone wants an argument!
Laudrup1
Well-Known Member
Watched it on S4C myself via satellite and on BSB after that long before C4 had it.
carlosapicella
Well-Known Member
Told you that's you and most folks on here,I've been following rangers since I was 8 through thick and thin through good and bad I'm now 67 if I've got a chip on my shoulder then you got a sack a tatties mate,end of post go and pull yourself off to mr messy
NorthAntrim
Well-Known Member
Mardonna good
Pele better
George Best
Pele better
George Best
Laudrup1
Well-Known Member
Does that note mean that Messi's success in the Champions League is even more remarkable when the very finest of the players are at all the top clubs competing in it? To win the CL now is far harder than it was to win the old EC.
Maradona only even won three leagues in his entire career and didn't get close to a European Cup in two attempts.
For all his glory in 1986, it was a one off in Elite top level competition for him. That can happen for a team as the likes of Greece or Denmark proved at the Euros. I'm not doing it down but more is made of it when you're talking across his entire career than Messi or Ronaldo winning top honours consistently over more than a decade.
