The Greatest Of All Time

The thing is, Barcelona probably woukd have won the majority of things without him because he had/has world class team mates. Maradona played in a Napoli team without that levwl of quality. The 86 WC side was half decent but nowhere near the level of world champions. Messi has failed to deliver on the International scene on that level. For me that is the difference between the two.

Even so, Ronaldo is a better player than Messi. Everything you get with Messi:goals, assists etc you get with Ronaldo but Ronaldo's physical presence and aeriel threat gives him the edge.

You cannot say that Barca would have won most things they've won even without Messi.

The very next point you make proves that that one elite player who can go above and beyond makes the difference.

Maradona did it for Argentina in 1986 (though failed to do it ever again for them and similarly with Napoli in the European Cup) and there is not one shadow of doubt that Messi has made the difference for Barca countless times.

Messi hasn't failed to deliver on the international stage other than not actually winning a WC. He's been a consistent performer at International level if you look at his stats.

If Higuain does what Burruchaga managed to do, the argument is entirely different.

Maradona doesn't get all the credit for winning that WC. He was the star man for sure but you can't pin all that on him and then suggest that Barca would have won everything they have without their star man.
 
""going by cold hard stats, goals, assists, medals""

this line for me makes it Ronaldo. but going on pure ability and talent - Messi

Has Messi not scored more career goals than Ronaldo though?

I've no idea of assists but my guess would be he outstrips Ronaldo on that too.

Actually, hang on...someone will have done all this.

https://michelacosta.com/en/messi-vs-cristiano-assists/

Messi by a mile on assists too.

Messi also has more league titles to his name and more domestic cup wins in total too (despite Ronaldo playing in England where there are two domestic cups)

Pretty much the only honour Ronaldo has more than him (other than the Euros win) is the CL at 5 v 4 and that has a very likely chance of levelling this season.

You can add all that to Messi's talent and being younger!
 
I just said to couple mates who were in, my top 3 would be Maradona, Pele, Messi. Messi 3rd only because he’s never won a World Cup, and never been kicked about like Maradona and Pele, different football now!
The world cup stuff is pish.

International football doesn't even come close to club football and European football in particular.

Stephan G'uivarch won the world cup, so did Giroud, does that mean they are better than Messi too?

Messi is the GOAT, no one can come close to his stats, goals, assists, key passes, it's not his fault that Argentina are pretty pish at the moment.
 
Most goals scored vs England's top 6:

43 - Aguero
29 - Vardy
26 - Hazard
23 - Messi
22 - Kane
20 - Rooney

Where's Ronaldo on that list? Absolutely crazy stat considering he's never played football in the Premier League. Also quite surprised how high Vardy is on it tbh.
 
I would say that Messi is the greatest player of all time followed by Pele and Ronaldo in terms of longevity of career, records broken etc BUT i would say that Maradona in the most talented player to ever live and probably in our generation of professionalism and sports science would have been the best ever too. I think to call him the greatest isn't quite true to his whole career because he definitely had down points, cheated, took drugs, fucked about and Messi has just never had a bad spell, even at his worst he has still been above the rest. I am too harsh on Ronaldo and I respect him so much because he has made more of his talent through sheer hard work than anyone else ever has.
 
It’s been done to death on here.

It’s still an intriguing debate, how would Messi cope in the brutal, ultra defensive Serie A? In a side that didn’t have Xavi, Ronaldinho, Iniesta etc?

Conversely, how would Maradona do in a role reversal? Peak fitness, protection from refs and playing with Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho et al?

Maradona shades it for me.
 
It’s been done to death on here.

It’s still an intriguing debate, how would Messi cope in the brutal, ultra defensive Serie A? In a side that didn’t have Xavi, Ronaldinho, Iniesta etc?

Conversely, how would Maradona do in a role reversal? Peak fitness, protection from refs and playing with Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho et al?

Maradona shades it for me.

Question - how often did Messi play with Ronaldinho? It's also fair to say that Messi has excelled since Xavi left and since Iniesta stopped being a key player.
 
Maradona for me too.

Maradona could do things with a football I've never seen any other do. His close control and ability to beat a man in a confined space was better than anyone else I've ever seen.
 
Question - how often did Messi play with Ronaldinho? It's also fair to say that Messi has excelled since Xavi left and since Iniesta stopped being a key player.

Just using them as an example, Messi played with some incredible players in one of the greatest sides of all time, Maradona didn’t, he played in some good sides but they were never top drawer.
 
Just using them as an example, Messi played with some incredible players in one of the greatest sides of all time, Maradona didn’t, he played in some good sides but they were never top drawer.

Why didn't Maradona play for top sides? I know he had a stint at Barca but apart from that?
 
Was the Argentina team of 86 worse than the Argentina team of 2014 that got to the final? Genuine question btw as I don't know.

Your second paragraph is mental tbh. Messi is basically a deep lying midfielder who outscores Ronaldo, has more assists, creates more chances, has better vision, is a better dribbler and is probably the best passer in the world. All Ronaldo has in his favour is height/heading and a better record of scoring in the Champions League knockout stages.

I think people often forget that Messi is 3 years younger than Ronaldo as well. When they both retire Messi will be in a league of his own.

As a footballer Messi is in a different stratosphere to Ronaldo.
 
*picture of God*



But he's won an international tournament which his brother hasn't done and that is a criteria that some use for suggesting that Messi can't be as good as Maradona.

I'm not buying this argument that Maradona played when football was more thuggish and that modern players have it easy now by comparison.

Maradona (and even more so Pele) weren't up against the sheer level of athleticism that modern day players have.

It was easier for someone with the sublime level of skill that Cruyff, Best, Maradona and Pele had to stand out back in the day. Yeah, football could be seen as more brutal at times, but there wasn't as much of the elite as their is now.

To excel to the levels that Messi and Ronaldo do in this day and age above any of their peers is almost beyond comprehension.

R9 did things in his prime I'd never seen before. Before him it was Maradona who was blazing a trail. It's impossible to compare players across generations.

The only real argument of note comes between Messi and Ronaldo since they're playing in the same era and played huge chunks of their career in the same league and against the same teams in the CL.

Even then, it's personal preference. I prefer watching Messi play as I like a traditional winger who beats a man with close control as opposed to someone who is just an utter machine like Ronaldo and uses more power in his game.

Messi / Ronaldo (Portuguese) / Ronaldo (Brazilian) / Maradona / Ronaldinho / Cruyff / Pele / Best / Michael Laudrup / Zidane / for a top 10 in that order if anyone wants an argument! ;)
An amazing top 10. 9 of whom I have seen. Not Pele though. Would you have even considered any defenders? Beckenbaur or Baresi perhaps?
 
597 goals in 679 games

Has to be Messi

Records will show that Pele scored more but Messi has done it year in year out at the highest level.
 
My old dad said Di Stefano was the greatest, and he saw him in the flesh as well as seeing Puskas, Best, Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Maradona and Messi.

That's on the assumption he wasn't allowed to pick Baxter!
 
Napoli became a really good European side during his time there, they won titles and a European trophy, to play for Boca, Barca and Napoli primarily isn’t bad

It's not a bad career as you say, but it's not exactly one you'd expect from the greatest footballer of all time either.

Based on stats its Ronaldo. My opinion is the same.

Out of interest, which stats back up Ronaldo as being the best?

I think in terms of goals it's been debunked that Pele scored over 1,000 hasn't it?
 
Messi has never "owned" a World Cup tournament; Maradona did, Cruyff did, Pele did. Does that count at all? I think it could be a contributing factor because how many when they suggest Messi are too involved in the immediacy of this being his time?

He dragged his team to a World Cup Final which is basically what Cruyff done. Pele had absolutely world class players around him, so don't think he owned the world cup as such. Although he's big profile here, some Brazilians would dispute he is even the greatest Brazilian player.
 
A lot of people say that modern players wouldn't cope in the old games with the bad pitches and harder tackles, on the contrary, I don't think players of by-gone eras would be able to keep up with the modern game. The players are complete professionals and world class athletes. Despite the obvious skill of older players, they are well off the pace when it comes to modern fitness levels.
 
A lot of people say that modern players wouldn't cope in the old games with the bad pitches and harder tackles, on the contrary, I don't think players of by-gone eras would be able to keep up with the modern game. The players are complete professionals and world class athletes. Despite the obvious skill of older players, they are well off the pace when it comes to modern fitness levels.

utter bollocks. Greig Jardine Henderson today? Away and ride yer teddy bear. if they were playing today they would of course be up to speed with fitness. DJ would utterly rip it up. He is Morelos x 10 at least. You saying McCoist wouldn't do it today? FO
 
He dragged his team to a World Cup Final which is basically what Cruyff done. Pele had absolutely world class players around him, so don't think he owned the world cup as such. Although he's big profile here, some Brazilians would dispute he is even the greatest Brazilian player.
Many would argue Garrincha was better?
 
utter bollocks. Greig Jardine Henderson today? Away and ride yer teddy bear. if they were playing today they would of course be up to speed with fitness. DJ would utterly rip it up. He is Morelos x 10 at least. You saying McCoist wouldn't do it today? FO

McCoist would still score goals, his game wasn't based on fitness. Think you are an old man with nostalgia issues here. Today's modern athletes with all the sports science available to them would be miles ahead of players from the 60s.

Dont know why you're pure raging about it old man.

Infact, watch the "best goal ever" the Brazil goal where Carlos Alberto finished it. It's almost at walking pace. If a team allowed the opposition that much time and space these days they would be slaughtered. It's horrific defending from Italy in the build up to the goal. A team these days would never be allowed to just play all they passes in the opposition half without being challenged.
 
In two months time Messi will also have 5. :)

Ronaldo's league title's record with Real Madrid is pitiful.

Don’t count your chickens before they hatch ;)

But champions leagues is most prestigious and his record in that is outstanding.

For what it’s worth both are different players and both outstanding, lucky to be able to watch both, I prefer Ronaldo but very difficult to separate them talent wise in my opinion.
 
597 goals in 679 games

Has to be Messi

Records will show that Pele scored more but Messi has done it year in year out at the highest level.
Gerd Muller should be in the reckoning too. 398 goals in 453 games for bayern. And 68 goals in 62 games for Germany. In an age where defender's would get away with much more.
 
Tin hat on here but I think much of the Maradona love-in is just dreary-eyed nostalgia of folk looking back at an era of football that they enjoyed much more. There is absolutely no doubting that the guy was an exceptional talent. His career achievements however consist of 1 World Cup and 2 Serie A wins with a very good Napoli side, all won within a period of 4 years.

Messi has been tearing it up at the very top level for 13 years and counting. He’s been running riot against the best teams in the world in the biggest club tournament in the world for the last 13 years. He’s been the linchpin in arguably the greatest club side ever. He has a level of consistency, a goal scoring record and a trophy haul that Maradona could only dream of. In terms of records held, there isn’t even a comparison to be made.

I can’t stand Barcelona and I’m by no means a Messi fanboy, but for me there is no doubt that Messi is the greatest player to ever play football. To put Maradona ahead of him purely because of 5 goals he scored at a world cup tournament held over a 4 week period is just madness.
Spot on. Messi surpassed Maradona a long time ago, and the argument that he hasn’t done it for Argentina is nonsense. He’s dragged them to 3 Copa America finals and a World Cup final, and is nearing 700 senior career goals for club and country. He’s a phenomenon.
 
It's frightening that Messi and Ronaldo have more goals than most top players have appearances.
 
McCoist would still score goals, his game wasn't based on fitness. Think you are an old man with nostalgia issues here. Today's modern athletes with all the sports science available to them would be miles ahead of players from the 60s.

Dont know why you're pure raging about it old man.

Infact, watch the "best goal ever" the Brazil goal where Carlos Alberto finished it. It's almost at walking pace. If a team allowed the opposition that much time and space these days they would be slaughtered. It's horrific defending from Italy in the build up to the goal. A team these days would never be allowed to just play all they passes in the opposition half without being challenged.
You're funny.....come to the Edinburgh festival...you'd sell out. Funny !
 
It’s not a black and white exercise unfortunately.

Messi is the best player to have played the game IMO, but it’s also important to consider someone’s relative ability in comparison to the level of the game at a certain period in time.

Maradona was incredible in the 80s but reality is the Maradona then wouldn’t be as effective against today’s players.

It’s all relative but I think you need to consider how far above everyone else someone is at a given time.

Maybe it’s Maradona given how far ahead of everyone else he was at that time?
 
It’s really difficult to compare players from different eras. Would Pele’s stats be the same if he played today?
 
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