The key questions that no journo in the land is asking

[ald]

The truth is that we should only be making a decision around about now as to whether and when to restart (or call) the SPL (I have no problem with the Championship, League 1 and League 2 deciding that they just couldn’t afford to wait that long). And if we had been doing that now (we aren’t even yet at the end of May), it would be pretty outrageous to decide now to call the SPL. The position under Covid-19 has changed rapidly from week to week, both as we into lockdown and now as we start coming out of lockdown. The decision should have been taken as late as possible. Yet Doncaster and co couldn’t call it quickly enough. The actual outcome stinks just about as much as the outrageous journey to get to it. Scandalous.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

How many players in those leagues will be free agents as if midnight tomorrow? It's around 110 in the Scottish Premiership

I don’t know, but surely in the circumstances that wasn’t the most difficult part of the equation mate ?

Let me ask you because I know you have contacts - were Scotland the second country of 55 to approach UEFA ? And if so why ? Why can these countries get a solution & we can’t ?

My answer is one word - desire.

 

[Carlton The Bear]

Other countries have shown that where there is a will, there’s a way.

All our shower of gangsters did was list all the issues that were supposedly “insurmountable” in order to get their anointed ones hands on a tainted title and that was their singular mission from day one.

 

[The Dude]

Surely there has to be a practical solution? Clubs will need players from 11th anyway to start training. Very few clubs in Europe are signing anyone right now. I’m sure players could have unilaterally agreed to a 2month contract extension on same terms to complete the season? These guys have families and would welcome some certainty also re salaries etc.
as another poster said, we are in unprecedented times and pragmatic solutions are being put in place all across the world. The Prem has same issue down south and will have a ready made solution, as will all other leagues restarting. Using this as the reason not to is a cop out imho

I'd be surprised if most clubs are anywhere near training grounds on the 11th. That means bringing their players off furlough and they can't afford that.
Deals in England typically have another month to run - and the riches of their TV deal to bankroll it.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

Other countries have shown that where there is a will, there’s a way.

All our shower of gangsters did was list all the issues that were supposedly “insurmountable” in order to get their anointed ones hands on a tainted title and that was their singular mission from day one.

This.

 

[The 290 Duke]

The only question you need to ask yourself is, would this have happened had it been Rangers 13 points clear?

I for one think not

 

[ifu01334]

I'd be surprised if most clubs are anywhere near training grounds on the 11th. That means bringing their players off furlough and they can't afford that.
Deals in England typically have another month to run - and the riches of their TV deal to bankroll it.

But sure that was what the prize money they all needed was for? I see your points but sure you can agree that when you put everything on the table, none of this adds up?
All clubs had budgets to finish 8 or 9 games. The wages since play stopped have been largely covered by the government or from players taking cuts or deferrals. Prize money has been paid early. There is a way through all of this and it’s a cop out and criminal to not even properly consider it.

 

[The Dude]

I don’t know, but surely in the circumstances that wasn’t the most difficult part of the equation mate ?

Let me ask you because I know you have contacts - were Scotland the second country of 55 to approach UEFA ? And if so why ? Why can these countries get a solution & we can’t ?

My answer is one word - desire.

Its a really big part of the equation. Clubs can't afford to pay wages without money coming in which is why most have had to furlough players. Extending contracts to play out the season means clubs can't use furlough and have to find a way to fulfill players wages without any external assistance.

SFA definitely approached UEFA about ending the season and by then the majority of clubs were already in favour of ending it.

 

[The Dude]

But sure that was what the prize money they all needed was for? I see your points but sure you can agree that when you put everything on the table, none of this adds up?
All clubs had budgets to finish 8 or 9 games. The wages since play stopped have been largely covered by the government or from players taking cuts or deferrals. Prize money has been paid early. There is a way through all of this and it’s a cop out and criminal to not even properly consider it.

That was to keep the lights on after all their income dried up.
If clubs had continued playing they wouldn't have been able to use the furlough scheme.
Tbh, Im far from convinced every club had the cash available to continue operating until the end of the season without any income.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

Its a really big part of the equation. Clubs can't afford to pay wages without money coming in which is why most have had to furlough players. Extending contracts to play out the season means clubs can't use furlough and have to find a way to fulfill players wages without any external assistance.

SFA definitely approached UEFA about ending the season and by then the majority of clubs were already in favour of ending it.

They did it before the vote, and used the phrase the ‘vast majority’ of clubs.

They had no forensic basis for this at that time.

And then their corrupt behaviour was all about coercion to prove themselves right, which is all now public.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

How many players in those leagues will be free agents as if midnight tomorrow? It's around 110 in the Scottish Premiership

But the Scottish Cup should continue on this basis ?

Mate I respect your posts & your contacts but you WILL NEVER convince me that the SPFL’s behaviour was objective & not corrupt.

 

[ifu01334]

That was to keep the lights on after all their income dried up.
If clubs had continued playing they wouldn't have been able to use the furlough scheme.
Tbh, Im far from convinced every club had the cash available to continue operating until the end of the season without any income.

I’m an accountant and understand how the finances work, but the issues you describe will be there when the new season starts, especially for clubs who rely on Gate money who play behind closed doors. So the issues remain the same whether it’s 2019/20 or 2020/21. Difference is that the clubs have put effort into a plan for the new season.
And before you mention any upfront cash from the new sky deal, I would remind you of the £10m hole from not completing 2019/20.
you are close to Falkirk and that is good insight, but all I am talking about is the top flight. Just as all the other countries around Europe are focused on

 

[The Dude]

But the Scottish Cup should continue on this basis ?

Mate I respect your posts & your contacts but you WILL NEVER convince me that the SPFL’s behaviour was objective & not corrupt.

No. Scottish Cup should be scrapped.

 

[The Dude]

I’m an accountant and understand how the finances work, but the issues you describe will be there when the new season starts, especially for clubs who rely on Gate money who play behind closed doors. So the issues remain the same whether it’s 2019/20 or 2020/21. Difference is that the clubs have put effort into a plan for the new season.
And before you mention any upfront cash from the new sky deal, I would remind you of the £10m hole from not completing 2019/20.
you are close to Falkirk and that is good insight, but all I am talking about is the top flight. Just as all the other countries around Europe are focused on

The gate money thing is why I expect we're only going to see one division start in August (it might be slightly expanded for a season to appease Hearts).

The top flight clubs are facing the exact same problems (I get stuff from more than Falkirk), it's just that it's a bit more manageable for them. Infact, based on what I know, Falkirk are in more secure financial health than around half of the Premiership.

 

[ald]

That was to keep the lights on after all their income dried up.
If clubs had continued playing they wouldn't have been able to use the furlough scheme.
Tbh, Im far from convinced every club had the cash available to continue operating until the end of the season without any income.

I am not doubting that cash is tight for lots of clubs. But it might be a lot tighter if Sky / BT come calling for their £10m (and why wouldn’t BT in particular - they have no contract next season so why won’t they make a claim?) - a risk that would have been avoided by playing out the season. Could Rangers and Celtic not have agreed to forego a couple of hundred thousand each and redistributed it to the other SPL clubs? I just struggle to believe that if there was a will there wasn’t also a way. Not saying it would be perfect or easy. But where we have got to is an absolute cluster**** and significant damage has been done which will continue for a long time.

 

[The Dude]

They did it before the vote, and used the phrase the ‘vast majority’ of clubs.

They had no forensic basis for this at that time.

And then their corrupt behaviour was all about coercion to prove themselves right, which is all now public.

The majority were in favour of ending it almost as soon as it was suspended based on various group chats and calls between clubs, the SPFL and individual groups that had formed, it just hadn't been formalised by then.

 

[The Dude]

I am not doubting that cash is tight for lots of clubs. But it might be a lot tighter if Sky / BT come calling for their £10m (and why wouldn’t BT in particular - they have no contract next season so why won’t they make a claim?) - a risk that would have been avoided by playing out the season. Could Rangers and Celtic not have agreed to forego a couple of hundred thousand each and redistributed it to the other SPL clubs? I just struggle to believe that if there was a will there wasn’t also a way. Not saying it would be perfect or easy. But where we have got to is an absolute cluster**** and significant damage has been done which will continue for a long time.

Rangers and Celtic probably could've but there's always the argument of why should they?

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

The majority were in favour of ending it almost as soon as it was suspended based on various group chats and calls between clubs, the SPFL and individual groups that had formed, it just hadn't been formalised by then.

So why were so many clubs so angry at the desire of the SPFL for a 48 hour answer, even those who supported it according to Rangers lover Tom English ?

Edit - Supported as in voted for it.

 

[mountloyal]

Our member of the SPFL board and our manager were stating right from the off that we had no intention of playing BCD.
We went all out for null and void.
It's disingenuous to now advocate the current season should be finished BCD. The costs alone would be crippling to most SPFL clubs.

 

[ifu01334]

The majority were in favour of ending it almost as soon as it was suspended based on various group chats and calls between clubs, the SPFL and individual groups that had formed, it just hadn't been formalised by then.

The majority were in favour as it was positioned as the only way to release cash. Which we know is bollocks

 

[ifu01334]

Our member of the SPFL board and our manager were stating right from the off that we had no intention of playing BCD.
We went all out for null and void.
It's disingenuous to now advocate the current season should be finished BCD. The costs alone would be crippling to most SPFL clubs.

We took a position and I agree with your point. The reality is though we are going to have to face up to testing for most of this calendar year, so there is obviously a financial plan which works and was discussed with the government etc.

 

[The Dude]

So why were so many clubs so angry at the desire of the SPFL for a 48 hour answer, even those who supported it according to Rangers lover Tom English ?

Edit - Supported as in voted for it.

The way it was presented to them. The clubs could all see that resuming the season wasn't going to happen - but there remained issues to be resolved (namely titles/relegation/playoffs). The positions in the tables themselves weren't in dispute but the consequences of being in those positions were, understandably, being argued over. Clubs wanted promoted and crowned champions others didn't want relegated. Clubs knew what prize money they would be due based on those positions and wanted it paid out.

To solve this, the SPFL (with influence from some that the Falkirk Chairman had previously criticised for "self-interest") decided they would make what was basically a take-it-or-leave-it offer which is the one clubs voted on - rather than taking the vote on ending the season with titles, promotion and relegation decisions to be confirmed after further talks (and making the much-needed payout to clubs).

 

[RW&B]

TBF I think most clubs said very early they wouldn’t play behind closed doors.

Also Scotland doesn’t have anything close to the money required for the testing that the German and English leagues are doing.

German and Danish leagues have restarted, there are no excuses as to why the 19th Century Terrorist league shouldn't have also.

This was an arrangement to aid one team only.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

The way it was presented to them. The clubs could all see that resuming the season wasn't going to happen - but there remained issues to be resolved (namely titles/relegation/playoffs). The positions in the tables themselves weren't in dispute but the consequences of being in those positions were, understandably, being argued over. Clubs wanted promoted and crowned champions others didn't want relegated. Clubs knew what prize money they would be due based on those positions and wanted it paid out.

To solve this, the SPFL (with influence from some that the Falkirk Chairman had previously criticised for "self-interest") decided they would make what was basically a take-it-or-leave-it offer which is the one clubs voted on - rather than taking the vote on ending the season with titles, promotion and relegation decisions to be confirmed after further talks (and making the much-needed payout to clubs).

I appreciate your response, but nothing changes my mind on the corruption in my opinion from the SPFL.

Why were they so dogmatic about not supporting Rangers’ idea to split payouts & league decision ?

Why was that Dundee vote submitted & then changed ?

Why did they hide the 10m impact of no more games ?

These vital questions remain unanswered mate, and never will be as they point to one thing in my opinion.

 

[The Dude]

I appreciate your response, but nothing changes my mind on the corruption in my opinion from the SPFL.

Why were they so dogmatic about not supporting Rangers’ idea to split payouts & league decision ?

Why was that Dundee vote submitted & then changed ?

Why did they hide the 10m impact of no more games ?

These vital questions remain unanswered mate, and never will be as they point to one thing in my opinion.

Rangers idea was to pay clubs based on their league position.

Dundee spotted an opportunity and tried to seize it.

The same reason nobody has mentioned we may have had a liability for BCD games either (the PL are looking at paying sky a 330m rebate for THIS season according to the Guardian)

 

[ifu01334]

Rangers idea was to pay clubs based on their league position.

Dundee spotted an opportunity and tried to seize it.

The same reason nobody has mentioned we may have had a liability for BCD games either (the PL are looking at paying sky a 330m rebate for THIS season according to the Guardian)

But surely a smaller number than not playing the games at all?!

 

[The Dude]

But surely a smaller number than not playing the games at all?!

Absolutely.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

Rangers idea was to pay clubs based on their league position.

Dundee spotted an opportunity and tried to seize it.

The same reason nobody has mentioned we may have had a liability for BCD games either (the PL are looking at paying sky a 330m rebate for THIS season according to the Guardian)

I understand your last point, and was quite surprised at the differential between BCD games & otherwise to be honest.

So you seem to imply that SPFL did nothing wrong on the Dundee vote. It’s kind of funny thinking this, given that they could only possibly know they had this opportunity BECAUSE OF SPFL CORRUPTION in the first place.

 

[ifu01334]

Absolutely.

So why not look into trying to complete the season? You’ve stated a few times that finances are the main stumbling block but to me, the potential liability of £10m hanging over the SPFL is the biggest financial issue and therefore more should have been done to try and avoid that and complete the games.

We can debate the points back and forward but can you give me your view and thoughts on why restarting wasn’t given proper consideration in Scotland when many other similar sized / funded leagues have shown desire and are kicking on to make it happen. Why are we so different?

 

[The Dude]

I understand your last point, and was quite surprised at the differential between BCD games & otherwise to be honest.

So you seem to imply that SPFL did nothing wrong on the Dundee vote. It’s kind of funny thinking this, given that they could only possibly know they had this opportunity BECAUSE OF SPFL CORRUPTION in the first place.

There's definitely been some dodginess gone on with Dundee's vote but I think it's a fair way away from being full on corruption. Even using the stuff put out publicly like the Whatsapp - Caley, Partick and Dundee always knew one could be 'kingmaker' and Dundee have seized upon it. The games full of folk who'll sell their granny to the first bidder.

 

[The Dude]

So why not look into trying to complete the season? You’ve stated a few times that finances are the main stumbling block but to me, the potential liability of £10m hanging over the SPFL is the biggest financial issue and therefore more should have been done to try and avoid that and complete the games.

We can debate the points back and forward but can you give me your view and thoughts on why restarting wasn’t given proper consideration in Scotland when many other similar sized / funded leagues have shown desire and are kicking on to make it happen. Why are we so different?

It was given consideration and nobody found it a realistic possibility. Afaik there's still not a club on record who have said they felt the season could be restarted.

Denmark gets twice the TV money the SPFL does - split between far fewer clubs. There's also different movement restrictions etc implemented by governments (we've had more excess deaths per million than anywhere that's not England). There's the contract stuff. The reliance on gate receipts.

The 10m will be absorbed by handing Sky the naming rights for the league and giving them additional games to broadcast over and above the ones they've paid for. Maybe certain League Cup broadcast rights too

 

[ifu01334]

It was given consideration and nobody found it a realistic possibility. Afaik there's still not a club on record who have said they felt the season could be restarted.

Denmark gets twice the TV money the SPFL does - split between far fewer clubs. There's also different movement restrictions etc implemented by governments (we've had more excess deaths per million than anywhere that's not England). There's the contract stuff. The reliance on gate receipts.

The 10m will be absorbed by handing Sky the naming rights for the league and giving them additional games to broadcast over and above the ones they've paid for. Maybe certain League Cup broadcast rights too

That’s not really absorbing it, thts giving away value that you would previously have expected to be paid for. Which is why this remains a shambles. There was a desire from rangers and hearts and others to divorce the financial payouts with calling the league and wait to see how things played out before deciding if football could be restarted. The situation is changing day to day. Are you really saying you believe that the SPFL presented a fully considered and costed plan for restarting to the clubs for consideration and that it’s not been disclosed by anyone yet?

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

There's definitely been some dodginess gone on with Dundee's vote but I think it's a fair way away from being full on corruption. Even using the stuff put out publicly like the Whatsapp - Caley, Partick and Dundee always knew one could be 'kingmaker' and Dundee have seized upon it. The games full of folk who'll sell their granny to the first bidder.

Maybe I’m old fashioned Dude, but when someone submits a vote & then that vote, unlike others submitted by PDF, isn’t received, and then the club that submits it changes their vote after 60-90 minutes of ‘communications’ with exactly who, we don’t totally know, I’d call that corruption. Remember that they had 48 hours or so to come to their initial conclusion in the first place ?

And to hide the potential impact of the 10m from clubs months after telling them directly or indirectly of the N&V ruling ? Doesn’t sit well with me.

Like @ifu01334 im an accountant & would expect to be barred from my profession if I was actively involved in behaviour like that.

Just my ten bobs worth mate.

 

[GazzaG]

Clubs and the PFA said they wouldn't play behind closed doors. IIRC Wishart said something along the lines of if fans aren't allowed into grounds then they'll tell their members not they shouldn't.

There was also the issue of players contracts ending tomorrow while clubs couldn't even train until June 10th. (EPL deals typically end June 30th).

Many clubs can't afford to bring players off furlough without gate receipts, which is why the lower leagues will likely get mothballed in fans aren't allowed in any time soon.

You're right that Wishart said he would instruct PFA members not to play.
If it's not safe for players, it's not safe for fans.

So that raises another question.

Where the fùck is Wishart when they're deciding next season goes ahead without fans?

Oh that's right, the filth got the award.
I bet we don't hear his name mentioned again.

 

[Greebo]

If this is not true then it's about time someone came out and said it, unless I have missed it.

"PREMIERSHIP CLUBS REACH UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT THAT TOP FLIGHT CANNOT BE FINISHED "

 

[Caldow3]

TBF I think most clubs said very early they wouldn’t play behind closed doors.

Also Scotland doesn’t have anything close to the money required for the testing that the German and English leagues are doing.

That's a fair point.....but those questions needed to be asked and recorded in print for it to be read by everyone.

Everybody on here knows whats went on or have an idea of what went on, but unless it's in the newspapers, nobody outside of our support really gives a damn.

 

[Timardim]

Here's two for starters

why is the jock Stein statue still allowed to pollute the landscape.......
why have we still no answer on the internal investigation at the piggery

 

[tottie beck]

1) We all know the answer is no
2) Their reporting up until now shows the vast majority, certainly of editors, have been shown to be beholding to the SPFL and will print whatever they tell them.

I think everyone needs to realize the idea of the Press being some crusader for truth and justice died a long time ago. They are businesses, often an arm of a larger corporation with links to Marketing and Advertising. Journalists, at least in the true meaning of the word, don’t really exist anymore. What you have at the redtops are paid writers, who don’t even choose their own stories. They write what they are told by their editors, who in turn are told what to write by their managers. The stories you read in print every morning are not the result of some hack running around on a question for the truth, they are the product of boardroom decisions. The Free Press died a long time ago, perhaps as far back as the late 1980s.

 

[jackstar]

Key question: Is Peter Lawell consulted and involved in all major decisions concerning the SPFL? If so, why? And why only him?

That's it for me in a nut shell. Why that guy has so much influence. It needs addressed. And the silence from the Club over this is deafening. They're not hiding the corruption anymore.

 

[Luca Stroppi]

If we had one single paper or respected journo out there, doing an impartial job, highlighting the lies and corruption of the SPFL, Doncaster and Shifty would already be gone for their complicity in this affair, and Lawwell would be on a sticky wicket.
The propaganda and lies that pass as journalism in Scotland today is a disgrace to that profession. The standard is better suited to Nazi Germany in the 30s than the country our ancestors built.

Sadly it’s only really the Rangers community that are unhappy about this situation...there’s a lot of people oblivious to it but there’s got to be plenty of people like us who see how rotten things are but just don’t care or as is clearly going on...many are too afraid to speak out for fear of the consequences.

It’s not incompetence that’s led us to this point, it’s the deliberate suppression of pursuing anything that’s going to be damaging and against the interests of the pollution club/community who swell the numbers of the media and hold the top positions and thus dictate the narrative on any given issue...what’s open for discussion/debate and what’s to be subdued and swept under the carpet...that’s how it is and it’s now a question of how big the bonfire is going to be?

 

[Govan36]

Did the SPFL ever consider restarting the season?

Was any work or feasibility study carried out into the logistics, costs and art of the possible around restarting in June?

Given the EPL has project restart, the danish league (similar to ours) is restarting, League of Ireland, could Doncaster & Co not have liaised with their neighbours and European counterparts and at least looked into the possibilities?

We already know the answers to all of these questions are NO, which is an absolute scandal. Why is no-one chasing this story down and taking them to task and holding the SPFL to account?

If there is a latent £10m liability to SKY and BT, we need to know how the SPFL is going to deal with this. Simply handing SKY free sponsorship rights is not a good solution, neither is taking a bite out the new deal.

Surely it would have been better to try and restart, incur additional costs (testing, health & safety etc) but overall save on the refund to broadcasters? Ie spend £3m to save paying back £10m?

Final question for SFA - what’s the plan for the Scottish cup? Hearts have been unfairly relegated and forced to cut budgets, release players and cut their cloth.where is the sporting integrity in trying to complete a cup competition where they are so unfairly handicapped? Surely the cup has to be called and declared null and void?

Answers on a postcard.....

From the Celtc View AKA BBC Scotland, Lawell says
"Celtic has, for some time, been engaging with relevant experts in this field - knowledge and guidance which we have shared with the joint response group, other Scottish clubs and the Scottish Government in order to support a safe, effective and quick return to football.

No names for these "relevant experts" no details of the "Knowledge and guidance" shared with the paying customers.
Almost like the in depth report that was being commissioned by them into allegations of child abuse at CBC, a report which hasn't seen the light of day yet.

Also stated now as fact " The new Premiership season will start behind closed doors on the weekend of 1 August - if Scotland is in phase two of its coronavirus recovery. "
1 st August as fact ? No details of how overseas players will be able to travel, no information on testing, no information on PPE for health care professionals in attendance e.g. physios, stretcher bearers etc. No information on provisions for ground staff, TV personnel etc.

Maybe the joint response group will tell us, the paying customers?

Strange no major announcement of a sponsor for this league starting on 1st August whichever teams might be involved in whichever leagues.