Arkanoid
Well-Known Member
But immediately guaranteed of a EL playoff tie even if we lose in the 3rd round, EL groups guaranteed just by winning 1 tie
Their Financial Results
- Thread starter jaws73
- Start date
ChildOfGoth
Well-Known Member
Good post .
I guess in a couple of years we will see more clearly again but perhaps we then have to think about other measures to improve our business . But that is for another day . Let’s enjoy the self-inflicted headaches they are stuck with at the monkey hoose.
Arkanoid
Well-Known Member
£40m swing in turnover is exceptional reading
We've also plastered about another 16 sponsors onto our kit, so hopefully that's been a nice earner too.
Hillheadbear
Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
There is a reality in the Celtic numbers which also applies to us, unfortunately. We are both utterly dependent on European football - and decent runs in Europe - as well as player sales to stay solvent.
It shows the importance of really good management - and Stevie G. has shown that he knows how to play in Europe - really good scouting and smart transfer market activity. I don't think we can underestimate the importance of Stevie G. both as a football manager but also in that his reputation is attracting high quality youngsters who can be sold on, at some point, for big money.
It also shows the importance of developing non-football commercial activities such as merchandising.
Now, Celtic have a short to medium term problem in that their wage bill is around £20 million higher than ours and they may be running out of high value players to sell. With the revenue gap diminishing and lackluster performance in Europe, it will be interesting to see how they deal with the next couple of years while still staying competitive with us on the park.
It shows the importance of really good management - and Stevie G. has shown that he knows how to play in Europe - really good scouting and smart transfer market activity. I don't think we can underestimate the importance of Stevie G. both as a football manager but also in that his reputation is attracting high quality youngsters who can be sold on, at some point, for big money.
It also shows the importance of developing non-football commercial activities such as merchandising.
Now, Celtic have a short to medium term problem in that their wage bill is around £20 million higher than ours and they may be running out of high value players to sell. With the revenue gap diminishing and lackluster performance in Europe, it will be interesting to see how they deal with the next couple of years while still staying competitive with us on the park.
andrewmont1
Well-Known Member
I am thinking both sides of the Old Firm are OK this season off the back of season ticket sales and TV money. 21/22 is going to be a whole different ball game. Still almost a year away but if we are being realistic there is still a probability that stadia will not be open at full capacity. Factor in higher unemployment (they will sell fewer season tickets by quite a margin compared to this season) and less money generally in the economy and its likely that they would need to borrow money just to pay the wages. If Gerrard delivers the league, I would think that season ticket sales will not be a concern regardless of capacity issues.
Laudrup1
Well-Known Member
I can't see them selling them in January either (is there actually a transfer window then this season with no actual winter break?) given it'd impact their league efforts.
That then leaves them with a year to go and it's the buying team in the position of power then.
They've spunked so much money on players who they didn't need.
Eboue Kouassi , Christian Gamboa , Nadir Ciftci, Kundai Benyu, Marvin Commper, Saidy Janko, Jeremy Toljan, Vakoun Bayo, Filip Benkovic, Moritz Bauer, Marian Schved.
I doubt many of them have made much of a contribution that couldn't have be covered in a far better manner with lesser wages and fees.
One of their criticisms of us over the last few years has been how many loans we've had. Look at this list of players like Musonda, Bauer, Weah, Burke and Anzani who weren't needed but they'd have been paying decent fees / wages on.
They've had it easy with either us not being in the league and there being no challenge from Aberdeen or when we've come back in, initially, being miles off the pace. It's only now that we're challenging some of them are starting to ask questions and hopefully it's too late.
DougieJones
Well-Known Member
Great summary - to think Lawwell was quoted in their financial statement praising Celtic’s ‘prudent strategy’. Wild, swinging for the fences strategy would be a more accurate description.
Begbie's Moustache
Well-Known Member
I was reliably told back in the Rodgers days, the main expense was lavish treatment of players; he wanted them to feel like a Premiership team so got the best of everything. Training, travel and accommodation, etc. It didn't stop them getting pumped in Europe routinely but as long as they were on the gravy train he got away with it.
Round about the time he went to Leicester he was having to rein in that spending and Desmond couldn't justify leaning on the board to keep it going, so off he went.
Our income will be down substantially this season as well. The money we'll lose out on by having no fans at the European games in particular is a big loss.
SouthLDNBear
Well-Known Member
rinosprayer
Well-Known Member
If one or other of us make the champions league proper it’s a game changer
sapper
Well-Known Member
Don't forget the number of fans asking for, and getting refunds on last seasons season tickets for games missed. Although we had plenty requesting season ticket refunds as well. The same would have happened to every club in the league.
Shamrock hand and crown
Well-Known Member
For years Heart and Hand have a podder called Andy McGowan and for year after year he’s been absolutely brilliant and laying out the clubs finances.
When others were panicking he was the voice of calmness and he’s been proven to be right.
When others were panicking he was the voice of calmness and he’s been proven to be right.
I really hope you aren't serious. The length of the thread would say otherwise.
Do you not remember what being short of revenue did to us?
If they are struggling for cash it will impact them and hopefully give us a run in the CL for a few years to come.
Just got sent this on whatsapp,
"The Celtic store in Argyle Street is owned by Mike Ashley. Now @CelticFC have a new lease costing 600k a year. Mike charging them 600K a year to rent Argyle Street? Surely not....
He parked his tanks at Celtic has he?"
"The Celtic store in Argyle Street is owned by Mike Ashley. Now @CelticFC have a new lease costing 600k a year. Mike charging them 600K a year to rent Argyle Street? Surely not....
He parked his tanks at Celtic has he?"
It’s maybe part of the Frasers building?
Weebilly
Well-Known Member
Don’t know if mentioned earlier but those with the 6% preference shares are still taking £510k out of the club which is nice:
4. DIVIDEND ON CONVERTIBLE CUMULATIVE PREFERENCE SHARES
A 6% non-equity dividend of £0.51m (2019: £0.51m) was paid on 28 August 2020 to those holders of Convertible Cumulative Preference Shares on the share register at 31 July 2020. A number of shareholders elected to participate in the Company’s scrip dividend reinvestment scheme for the financial year to 30 June 2020. Those shareholders have received new Ordinary Shares in lieu of cash. No dividends were payable or proposed to be payable on the Company’s Ordinary Shares.
4. DIVIDEND ON CONVERTIBLE CUMULATIVE PREFERENCE SHARES
A 6% non-equity dividend of £0.51m (2019: £0.51m) was paid on 28 August 2020 to those holders of Convertible Cumulative Preference Shares on the share register at 31 July 2020. A number of shareholders elected to participate in the Company’s scrip dividend reinvestment scheme for the financial year to 30 June 2020. Those shareholders have received new Ordinary Shares in lieu of cash. No dividends were payable or proposed to be payable on the Company’s Ordinary Shares.
monkey magic
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised it isn't a peppercorn rent in lieu of free season tickets to GCC.
dennyperkins
Well-Known Member
If we win this season I would be confident that we could qualify for the Champions League and that would be huge, both in extra money for the club and better quality player recruited.
Win the following season and if we have automatic qualification that is a serious game changer for us.
rupertdabear
Well-Known Member
This is it exactly . Reading the comments from their beaks today lamenting covid for the downfall in profit.What a load of nonsense
And did'nt they say their ST s sold out .Oh aye .
So spectators or not ,funds banked even if it was in that tax year s income apart from the few thousand seats that are not ST holders .Millions on the waiting list don't you know .
Reality is they have been living over their means for years and feeding off the european money with no one else able to claim any slice of it worth talking about until we got going with SG .They got lucky with big transfer fees too for avarage players.
25 m for biscuit hips
fine wine in the scum dome that night i'd sayThey should have invested some of it in the decent keeper they had on loan but seems he wanted out anyway ,starting to sound familiar too with some of their current chancers .
The_Irrepressibles
Well-Known Member
Friend of mine told me a couple of months ago about someone they know getting their dividend through. This must be what they were talking about.
Found it strange that a 'supporter' and shareholder would be taking money out their club.
Edit: just done a quick google search there to understand it better, and one of the first results (I won't link it here) is from the celtic trust in June literally begging supporters not to take their dividends. Desperados.
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rinosprayer
Well-Known Member
Equally for them but for both of us qualification Next year is still a bit of a lottery.
Automatic qualification The following season is a serious issue for the loser in our league.
BentleyBear
Well-Known Member
This was the real reason for them doing whatever it took to get the league handed to them last season, they were so desperate for the CL money that they couldn't afford not too, regardless of how it looked or how difficult a position it put other clubs in. Too bad they f@cked it then eh? Reap what you sow, c@nts!This is it exactly . Reading the comments from their beaks today lamenting covid for the downfall in profit.What a load of nonsense
And did'nt they say their ST s sold out .Oh aye .
So spectators or not ,funds banked even if it was in that tax year s income apart from the few thousand seats that are not ST holders .Millions on the waiting list don't you know .
Reality is they have been living over their means for years and feeding off the european money with no one else able to claim any slice of it worth talking about until we got going with SG .They got lucky with big transfer fees too for avarage players.
25 m for biscuit hips
They should have invested some of it in the decent keeper they had on loan but seems he wanted out anyway ,starting to sound familiar too with some of their current chancers .
rupertdabear
Well-Known Member
Karma mate and their influencing of the super computer ( is such a thing possible) came back to bite them too .Just love it when their schemes hit them up the face .
Despite what the authorites say about random fixtures, the fixtures always had certain matches set at an approx date and the rest were built round them .Years of stats and evidence as backup to that but suddenly its supposed to be totally random and the match just happened to be the last possible date in the first round of fixtures after treacle teeth made the very public request .
He asked ,he got .no hiding that fact.
Shameless
MarkD87
Well-Known Member
I may come across slightly negative here, but don't take it that way.
I feel like too many are taking this as big news. From what I can make of this, it is reinforcing what we already knew about Celtic's business model.
They spend more than what's necessary on player wages and transfer fees to try and maintain their dominance in Scottish football (with that dominance soon to no longer exist). And in order to do this they have a risky strategy of obtaining approx. £15m-£25m through either European competition participation or player sales, or a combination of both.
The positive news for us is their failure to obtain the majority of this money from European football, so this leads to them selling their best assets, and making their team less competitive. To think, had they qualified for only 2 CL group stages they could have Dembele and Edouard up front, and Tierney at left back rather than their loan signing. I'm glad that's not a team we are competing against (even though I still think we could compete with that now).
Where their strategy has failed them most is in their recruitment. They have failed to identify players who can return a large profit on transfer fees, and just as importantly their pursuit of these types of players has led them not to recruit safer acquisitions that may have actually provided better performances leading to CL qualification. I get the impression they are more obsessed with finding players who's values may rapidly rise (i.e. Van Dijk, Wanyama, Dembele, etc.) than those who would have been safe buys and produce results (i.e. Christie, Griffiths, dare I say McGinn ). Now they have too many assets who are not going to return that so desired profit, and it's costing them a fair amount in wages until they can shift them, and all the better with these players not providing the performances that can get them CL qualification (and maybe even better, not getting them domestic dominance)
They still have these assets that the can shift to bring in some money (even if that does mean making a loss against what they paid for them), and also to reduce their wage bill. So I can't see them getting into any financial difficulty with this being the case. The only financial difficulty they have is realising that their overly ambitious strategy is unsustainable, and therefore it's likely we will see a transition to a more sustainable strategy. This means lower wage bill, responsible player purchases, and a transition to get into this state. This is where our recruitment, coaching, youth development, commercial partnerships have to be better to gain the advantage (I think we have the model for that). Their situation is actually not too different to the learnings we had from the David Murray era.
The difference being that we had the 'Tax Case' hanging over our head, and then the sale to a non prudent individual (Whyte) that didn't allow us to have transitioned in the way that we should have. Their situation may well be the Celtic Boys Club scandal that adds that pressure, not affording them a sensible transition.
I feel like too many are taking this as big news. From what I can make of this, it is reinforcing what we already knew about Celtic's business model.
They spend more than what's necessary on player wages and transfer fees to try and maintain their dominance in Scottish football (with that dominance soon to no longer exist). And in order to do this they have a risky strategy of obtaining approx. £15m-£25m through either European competition participation or player sales, or a combination of both.
The positive news for us is their failure to obtain the majority of this money from European football, so this leads to them selling their best assets, and making their team less competitive. To think, had they qualified for only 2 CL group stages they could have Dembele and Edouard up front, and Tierney at left back rather than their loan signing. I'm glad that's not a team we are competing against (even though I still think we could compete with that now).
Where their strategy has failed them most is in their recruitment. They have failed to identify players who can return a large profit on transfer fees, and just as importantly their pursuit of these types of players has led them not to recruit safer acquisitions that may have actually provided better performances leading to CL qualification. I get the impression they are more obsessed with finding players who's values may rapidly rise (i.e. Van Dijk, Wanyama, Dembele, etc.) than those who would have been safe buys and produce results (i.e. Christie, Griffiths, dare I say McGinn ). Now they have too many assets who are not going to return that so desired profit, and it's costing them a fair amount in wages until they can shift them, and all the better with these players not providing the performances that can get them CL qualification (and maybe even better, not getting them domestic dominance)
They still have these assets that the can shift to bring in some money (even if that does mean making a loss against what they paid for them), and also to reduce their wage bill. So I can't see them getting into any financial difficulty with this being the case. The only financial difficulty they have is realising that their overly ambitious strategy is unsustainable, and therefore it's likely we will see a transition to a more sustainable strategy. This means lower wage bill, responsible player purchases, and a transition to get into this state. This is where our recruitment, coaching, youth development, commercial partnerships have to be better to gain the advantage (I think we have the model for that). Their situation is actually not too different to the learnings we had from the David Murray era.
The difference being that we had the 'Tax Case' hanging over our head, and then the sale to a non prudent individual (Whyte) that didn't allow us to have transitioned in the way that we should have. Their situation may well be the Celtic Boys Club scandal that adds that pressure, not affording them a sensible transition.
Weebilly
Well-Known Member
Looking at their accounts, share capital only increased by £9k. That is the only preference shareholders taking shares rather than cash. The rest of them are like pigs in a trough wanting their annual 6% return which in this current climate is a fantastic rate.Friend of mine told me a couple of months ago about someone they know getting their dividend through. This must be what they were talking about.
Found it strange that a 'supporter' and shareholder would be taking money out their club.
Edit: just done a quick google search there to understand it better, and one of the first results (I won't link it here) is from the celtic trust in June literally begging supporters not to take their dividends. Desperados.
When one of them go on about our directors loans always reply back that at least our Directors are not taking 6% each year out of the club.
Mate wouldn’t that be fucking tremendous that they gambled everything on ten lost then were plunged into finicial turmoil over the tape of weans under their watch
SuperFuzz
Well-Known Member
I’d agree that yes things are getting better but we’ve still got a long way to go to be where I’d want them to be if I were a director
Gogso
Well-Known Member
The desire to keep the Scottish cup going from last season appears now to be in part cash driven.
Share of two full hamdumps in addition to what ever prize money is on offer.
However BCD removes the crowd cash (£1.5m?) and player & management bonuses for winning it must drive down the value and now the football impact of trailing behind with games in hand. Keep winning Rangers and every victory keeps the pressure on!
ChildOfGoth
Well-Known Member
GeckoBear , re. . I’d agree that yes things are getting better but we’ve still got a long way to go to be where I’d want them to be if I were a director
would you at some point be able to have a separate thread on some options and suggestions re Rangers’ next phase of development in terms of business and finance ?
would you at some point be able to have a separate thread on some options and suggestions re Rangers’ next phase of development in terms of business and finance ?
Meh I don’t know if I’m qualified for that but i would like to see the retained loss number reducing on the balance sheet. I understand the accounting procedures and what the numbers are but without knowing more details it’s difficult to say. Just need to keep driving up revenue
Obviously being hit by covid isn’t going to have helped this. If we could get into the champions league groups next year, I think that would do us a lot of favours. I personally think UEL is our level and we do well there and if we had a very lucky run we could potentially get to a semi final or even final, but I think if we could get to the groups a few years and finish 3rd to drop into the Europa league that would certainly help with finances, however it’s important that we don’t rely on it to pay wages or it’ll be groups or sell a Morelos or a Barisic to make up the deficit.
Grigo Yossarian
Well-Known Member
That’s a hard ask for a fan, but I think high level things we would want are :
1.Can we break even each year without any big player sales ? With Castore & regular EL this is more possible, albeit Europe Group stages every single year is a risk.
2.Can we continue our approach on player development that means we sell, but re invest in the next batch of young talents for future profit
3.Do we continue to use a ‘Bosman’ type approach to securing more experienced players ? Either OOC or in last year of contract ?
From a business / club security angle, this should improve us medium to long term, even if we move slightly from this principle when an experienced guy becomes available that our
Management team really want ?
Obviously having Gerrard’s teams development qualities are vital to this.
The Pontiac Bandit
Well-Known Member
If anyone listens to the price of football podcast they have a quick look at the tims finances.
And it doesn't paint a good picture for them.
Basically they need significant investment or a significant player sale just to stay still.
And it doesn't paint a good picture for them.
Basically they need significant investment or a significant player sale just to stay still.
