This 'Aye, but Club Brugge' thing

Jelle1880 said:
OP is right in a way, but Brugge aren't just doing good now because they've got a team that is used to CL football. Yesterday they had two 17 year olds and a 19 year old on the pitch at one time.

It's about mentality as much as the money they can spend.
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There are good teams all over Europe who will use young players, if they are good enough.

We are rather retarded in this area in Scotland.

You're still a kid here at 23 in some peoples eyes.
 
Paulski55 said:
No, not that. You can have a go but be intelligent with it. We just don’t have the guts to even try and lay a glove.

Players out of positions, wrong players picked, negative, insipid tactics. Our tactics hardly inspire confidence or imagination.

Last season we went and had a go, and we had a system that allowed us to go and have a go, look where it took us. Yes we punched well above our weight, but we still put ourselves in positions where we could go and play and at least make a fist of the tougher games.

We can go up against big teams and not get embarrassed by being ultra defensive or negative, but it’s horrendous to watch.
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We didn't go and have a go in any of our away games last season.

Dortmund was an anomaly score wise but we didn't "have a go" at them.
 
pandager1 said:
Bloody hell, that group draw they had in 21/22.

Good post though - it will take time, development and some additional investment in the squad to get wins at this level.
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The difference is money. Frankfurt can use Europa as a springboard for us we are still in Scotland.
 
cooprfc said:
We need to stop this nonsense about the CL being something we need to grow into.

We were in the Europa League Final 5 months ago having knocked out two sides who fell out the CL en route.

We eliminated PSV who had only just spanked Ajax a fortnight or so before.

We've stunk the place out due to horrible, scared tactics.

Let's call a spade a spade.

Now we would've probably lost whatever we did last night and we had some bad luck v Napoli but there is a real "we really can't compete here" vibe about our whole club. It's not that we are looking to grow. That's an excuse.
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its partly both
we grew into the EL each year, beating better teams
 
cooprfc said:
We need to stop this nonsense about the CL being something we need to grow into.

We were in the Europa League Final 5 months ago having knocked out two sides who fell out the CL en route.

We eliminated PSV who had only just spanked Ajax a fortnight or so before.

We've stunk the place out due to horrible, scared tactics.

Let's call a spade a spade.

Now we would've probably lost whatever we did last night and we had some bad luck v Napoli but there is a real "we really can't compete here" vibe about our whole club. It's not that we are looking to grow. That's an excuse.
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The truth is we can grow with further investment but we should be doing better right now as well. The latter is on GvB. The former is on the board and Wilson.
 
dt17 said:
We've got the second hardest group in the CL IMO.

Napoli are proving to be a very good side, better than anyone anticipated.

Seen a few throbbers on Twitter mentioning Club Brugge saying our budgets are similar etc. Think they've spent about £40m each other the last 2-3 seasons.
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Yes, whilst the bulk of the squad are fairly similar in price, the top of their squad is much more expensive.

Their main strikers was about £14M from Benfica.

Whilst Kent is by a long way, still our most expensive player in the squad they have at least 4 or 5 players in that approximate price range (£6 - £7M).

It doesn't mean they aren't punching above their weight but it has taken them years of continually qualifying and reinvesting the cash to get where they are now.
 
Bigbluebear said:
We didn't go and have a go in any of our away games last season.

Dortmund was an anomaly score wise but we didn't "have a go" at them.
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Bit we did though, we did have a go and that’s why we scored 4 goals against them. Some games away from home we had to be defensive and not go out and attack, but that was us being smart as a team to try and keep in a two legged tie. With Dortmund, we didn’t have anything to lose. We didn’t have any pressure to get a result, but when we did the whole of Europe at up and took notice. We took huge confidence from that, and we built on it.

What should have happened against PSV was the same thing, taking confidence from that result and using it as a motivation and catalyst for a good crack at the CL, regardless of the level of quality we would face.
 
immortal7 said:
this is their 6th Group campaign in 7 years.

They got 1 point in year 1, having shipped 19 goals to Leicester, Copenhagen & Porto.

They have steadily improved since.

We saw 2 years ago with Slavia how a team grows together over years in Europe, we did the same last year.

Slavia are Conference this year. The challenge for Gio & Rangers is to follow the Brugge route, not the racist route.

Let's take stock Ajax @home, rather than burn the house down.

Also, remember SAF subbed off his best players as the Stretford End went from 'CL yer havin a laff' to, eventually, 'Sunday League, yer havin a laff', Forlan broke his duck and we were a shambling, humilitaed mess...2 campaigns later we were last 16.

2016–17Champions LeagueGroupEnglandLeicester City0–3, 1–24.0
GroupDenmarkCopenhagen0–2, 0–4
GroupPortugalPorto1–2, 0–1
2018–19Champions LeagueGroupFranceMonaco1–1, 4–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–1, 0–0
SpainAtlético Madrid1–3, 0–0
GroupTurkeyGalatasaray0–0, 1–1
SpainReal Madrid2–2, 1–3
FranceParis Saint-Germain0–5, 0–1
2020–21Champions LeagueGroupRussiaZenit Saint Petersburg2–1, 3–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–3, 0–3
ItalyLazio1–1, 2–2
2021–22Champions LeagueGroupFranceParis Saint-Germain1–1, 1–47.0
GermanyRB Leipzig2–1, 0–5
EnglandManchester City1–5, 1–4
2022–23Champions LeagueGroupGermanyBayer Leverkusen1–0
PortugalPorto4–0
SpainAtlético Madrid2–0
Click to expand...
You make some very good points, however I think it would be remiss of us to completely ignore the fact that a few months ago we were Europa league finalists and indeed a bawhair away from lifting the trophy. It is indeed a group of death for us, but no European finalists should be walking away from the following seasons group stages (even in a higher tier competition) with zero points, which we look on course for barring a sharp upturn in performances. I don't think anyone would disagree if it was said that performances and player attitude has regressed alarmingly since even last season, I don't mind being papped out of the group but at least go down swinging and try to give one of the bigger boys a bloody nose.

You're points are very worthwhile as I say, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle imo. Teams like Sheriff and APOEL have scalped the likes of Real Madrid in recent seasons, there's no reason why we shouldn't be performing to a level or two higher than we've shown so far.
 
I don't think comparisons are of much value be it in a positive and negative light. Every team has their own set of circumstances. It isn't as easy as saying Club Brugge won a game so we should but I also don't know what's been their long term strategy and outlook each season.

Before Club Brugge started appearing with regularity in the CL in 16/17, they finished second bottom in their Europa League group the season before. As much as people want to invalidate our Europa League performances in recent years as being irrelevant and non-transferable, they aren't but they hint now at a group of players that have peaked.

A big problem in using the 'the CL is an experience for these players to get to this level and build on' outlook is a lot of the starting XI last night and in the Napoli game aren't a group that can progress and develop long term. From the starting 11 last night which isn't including Jack and Arfield who featured against Napoli:

McGregor (40)
Tavernier (30, 31 this month)
Goldson (29, 30 by the end of the year)
Barisic (29, 30 by the end of the year)
Davis (37, 38 by the end of the year)
Kent (out of contract by the end of the season)
Morelos (out of contract by the end of the season)

I think a lot of the malaise is that fans don't really believe we'll replace that set of players with adequate replacements and refresh the squad to make progress in the CL based on the last few seasons of transfers in.
 
Brugge are currently third in Belgium and 5 points off 1st according to Wikipedia.

I wonder if their FF is calling for their manager to be sacked.
 
Kubala said:
Brugge are currently third in Belgium and 5 points off 1st according to Wikipedia.

I wonder if their FF is calling for their manager to be sacked.
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I doubt it.

A) Because their league is a lot more competitive than ours.
B) Their outstanding start to the CL.

Worth remembering that European results can paper over a full house of cracks - as we ourselves can testify.
 
Sandbear said:
I tried to stay away from FF last night as I knew how scattergun and awful it would be , there is no real awareness of where we are as a club.
This Brugge thing is so much pish , some idiot said it and it’s being quoted by folk who can’t think for themselves.
The Guardian actually had a good article on last nights game , where it basically laid down the case for UEFA taking football away from small countries like ours.
If we are to compete at this level we will need to qualify for a few years and invest in the squad.
As for the complaints about our play, I think the board is full of kids who never had to sit and watch the absolute shite Smith teams served up with a huge money advantage over Scots teams and less of of a gap between us and European teams.
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This is my normal approach. But then I thought, no, why the f**k should the lunatic reactionaries get free reign to spout off?
 
We can’t even compete with Turkish clubs financially never mind a club in the CL 6 years out of 7 ffs.

Average European sides should be pumping us rotten, don’t let the last few years cloud that fact.
 
I thought comparing ourselves to Brugge was a lazy argument.

Im not expecting us to work miracles here. I understand we are up against it from the off.

However, we do not help ourselves. Our inability to pass to a team mate. Our depressingly negative tactics. I could go on and on.

I do not enjoy watching us play under the current management. At all. Fair play to the supporters that do.

They must go to the games wearing a blindfold mind you.
 
immortal7 said:
this is their 6th Group campaign in 7 years.

They got 1 point in year 1, having shipped 19 goals to Leicester, Copenhagen & Porto.

They have steadily improved since.

We saw 2 years ago with Slavia how a team grows together over years in Europe, we did the same last year.

Slavia are Conference this year. The challenge for Gio & Rangers is to follow the Brugge route, not the racist route.

Let's take stock Ajax @home, rather than burn the house down.

Also, remember SAF subbed off his best players as the Stretford End went from 'CL yer havin a laff' to, eventually, 'Sunday League, yer havin a laff', Forlan broke his duck and we were a shambling, humilitaed mess...2 campaigns later we were last 16.

2016–17Champions LeagueGroupEnglandLeicester City0–3, 1–24.0
GroupDenmarkCopenhagen0–2, 0–4
GroupPortugalPorto1–2, 0–1
2018–19Champions LeagueGroupFranceMonaco1–1, 4–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–1, 0–0
SpainAtlético Madrid1–3, 0–0
GroupTurkeyGalatasaray0–0, 1–1
SpainReal Madrid2–2, 1–3
FranceParis Saint-Germain0–5, 0–1
2020–21Champions LeagueGroupRussiaZenit Saint Petersburg2–1, 3–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–3, 0–3
ItalyLazio1–1, 2–2
2021–22Champions LeagueGroupFranceParis Saint-Germain1–1, 1–47.0
GermanyRB Leipzig2–1, 0–5
EnglandManchester City1–5, 1–4
2022–23Champions LeagueGroupGermanyBayer Leverkusen1–0
PortugalPorto4–0
SpainAtlético Madrid2–0
Click to expand...
Great post, im7, and backed up with hard fact and not unsubstantiated, emotional guesswork.
Last season we had a great European run to Seville, but if we are completely honest with ourselves, the step up to the ECL from the EL is akin to being the “big boys” in Primary 7 moving on to First Year Secondary, and getting you’re arse kicked on a daily basis by everyone in every year above you. It takes time to get adjusted to the new, bigger and better environment, and unless you are a one-off, strapping 13 stone, six foot tall 12 year old, you’re just going to have to suck it all up and learn the hard way, and by experience!
What Rangers have to / must do, is learn and grow from this year’s experience, and,
a) Qualify for next year’s ECL
b) Recruit and replace when we lose players to transfers out or just being too old or not good enough.

As supporters, we need to show a little more patience this year. I know that heavy defeats in Europe can be humiliating, but at this stage, it really is a learning process.
( Humiliating defeats in domestic competition though are another argument for another day )
 
Simply a Bear said:
The real issue is the negativity that is just dripping from the stands, to the touchline to the pitch. We can all point the fingers as to who or what is the cause of this but it's there and yet to be addressed.

I think you have touched on something important there. The fans are still harbouring bad feelings towards the board after the disappointing transfer window. Coupled with the lethargic performances this season, it has made fans even more disgruntled.
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The board have their issues and need to improve in a lot of areas.

We feel shafted after spending so much on packages with no new signings ....... gio feels the same when you look at his interview after the qualifying to then few days later downbeat I'm happy(aka Gerrard previously)

The biggest issue for most isn't we are second in league by just 2 points or the performances against the rest it comes down for most about the game at the piggery.......... after period of dominating them there is Anger at it.

For best part I've saw from Smith through to Gio our teams going there and struggling and getting battered.

But people moved on

Social media has increased the constant noise which amplify the rage of a few
 
immortal7 said:
this is their 6th Group campaign in 7 years.

They got 1 point in year 1, having shipped 19 goals to Leicester, Copenhagen & Porto.

They have steadily improved since.

We saw 2 years ago with Slavia how a team grows together over years in Europe, we did the same last year.

Slavia are Conference this year. The challenge for Gio & Rangers is to follow the Brugge route, not the racist route.

Let's take stock Ajax @home, rather than burn the house down.

Also, remember SAF subbed off his best players as the Stretford End went from 'CL yer havin a laff' to, eventually, 'Sunday League, yer havin a laff', Forlan broke his duck and we were a shambling, humilitaed mess...2 campaigns later we were last 16.

2016–17Champions LeagueGroupEnglandLeicester City0–3, 1–24.0
GroupDenmarkCopenhagen0–2, 0–4
GroupPortugalPorto1–2, 0–1
2018–19Champions LeagueGroupFranceMonaco1–1, 4–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–1, 0–0
SpainAtlético Madrid1–3, 0–0
GroupTurkeyGalatasaray0–0, 1–1
SpainReal Madrid2–2, 1–3
FranceParis Saint-Germain0–5, 0–1
2020–21Champions LeagueGroupRussiaZenit Saint Petersburg2–1, 3–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–3, 0–3
ItalyLazio1–1, 2–2
2021–22Champions LeagueGroupFranceParis Saint-Germain1–1, 1–47.0
GermanyRB Leipzig2–1, 0–5
EnglandManchester City1–5, 1–4
2022–23Champions LeagueGroupGermanyBayer Leverkusen1–0
PortugalPorto4–0
SpainAtlético Madrid2–0
Click to expand...

There was only one group harder than ours on paper, although given how Napoli have started the season ours could well be the toughest.

The draw has been brutal for us, people kid themselves on they want a glamour draw, then spit the dummy when glamour results in defeats. I said this before but the Europa form lulled us, including me, into a false sense of security, we thought we were competing and beating CL level sides, when in reality they were in the Europa league because that was their level in that season.

Dortmund, who we were rightly ecstatic at beating, where given a few hidings in last years CL, most notably home and away to Ajax.

However just because this years has been brutal it doesn’t mean it always will be, Celtic‘s group, for example, is a Europa league group plus Madrid, we just happened to get the most difficult 2nd and 3rd pot sides, which was exciting until reality kicked in!
 
ronadamus_prime said:
An excellent post that will be completely ignored because it doesn't serve the argument a lot of folk are trying to make at the moment. Sadly.

I saw someone on twitter try to argue that us and Club Brugge had similar sized budgets, which is just complete nonsense. They've made massive profits on player sales, CL prize money and winning the Belgian league for quite a few years now.
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I half agree with you here, in terms of running of the clubs, Brugge are far ahead of us in the player trading model although I do feel we are improving.

However what i do disagree with is the budgets, we pay considerably more than they do in player wages, the issue is how we spend ours compared to how they spend theirs, we overspend on older players on large wages with little resale value where as Brugge focus on youth they can resell.
 
Myogi said:
I half agree with you here, in terms of running of the clubs, Brugge are far ahead of us in the player trading model although I do feel we are improving.

However what i do disagree with is the budgets, we pay considerably more than they do in player wages, the issue is how we spend ours compared to how they spend theirs, we overspend on older players on large wages with little resale value where as Brugge focus on youth they can resell.
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Brugge pay higher wages on the top end to players than we do.

Reports in Belgium is that Simon Mignolet is on around €66k p/w & Hans Vanakan on around €50k p/w. We aren't offering that sort of wages to anyone at the moment even if Robertson has said we've increased the wage bill this summer.
 
Us comparing ourselves to anyone in a better position is tantamount to self induced depression. Unfortunately it’s the way of the modern fan who can’t accept anything less than 100% invincibility in Scotland and second or at the very least third in the Champions League.

For more context, how many other clubs in the Conference and Europa Leagues are looking up to us right now in total envy. A team punching way above its weight who got to the EL final and are now in the CL, and clearly on a journey of discovery at this next level.
 
immortal7 said:
this is their 6th Group campaign in 7 years.

They got 1 point in year 1, having shipped 19 goals to Leicester, Copenhagen & Porto.

They have steadily improved since.

We saw 2 years ago with Slavia how a team grows together over years in Europe, we did the same last year.

Slavia are Conference this year. The challenge for Gio & Rangers is to follow the Brugge route, not the racist route.

Let's take stock Ajax @home, rather than burn the house down.

Also, remember SAF subbed off his best players as the Stretford End went from 'CL yer havin a laff' to, eventually, 'Sunday League, yer havin a laff', Forlan broke his duck and we were a shambling, humilitaed mess...2 campaigns later we were last 16.

2016–17Champions LeagueGroupEnglandLeicester City0–3, 1–24.0
GroupDenmarkCopenhagen0–2, 0–4
GroupPortugalPorto1–2, 0–1
2018–19Champions LeagueGroupFranceMonaco1–1, 4–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–1, 0–0
SpainAtlético Madrid1–3, 0–0
GroupTurkeyGalatasaray0–0, 1–1
SpainReal Madrid2–2, 1–3
FranceParis Saint-Germain0–5, 0–1
2020–21Champions LeagueGroupRussiaZenit Saint Petersburg2–1, 3–011.0
GermanyBorussia Dortmund0–3, 0–3
ItalyLazio1–1, 2–2
2021–22Champions LeagueGroupFranceParis Saint-Germain1–1, 1–47.0
GermanyRB Leipzig2–1, 0–5
EnglandManchester City1–5, 1–4
2022–23Champions LeagueGroupGermanyBayer Leverkusen1–0
PortugalPorto4–0
SpainAtlético Madrid2–0
Click to expand...

Great post mate , a lazy comparison be used constantly now , heard again today on totally football podcast , poor from them regarding insight into teams , pure arrogance tbh .
 
TheDeli said:
Brugge pay higher wages on the top end to players than we do.

Reports in Belgium is that Simon Mignolet is on around €66k p/w & Hans Vanakan on around €50k p/w. We aren't offering that sort of wages to anyone at the moment even if Robertson has said we've increased the wage bill this summer.
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While I have no way of commenting on how much certain players get, according to their annual accounts their "Wages of players and costs of technical staff" is 30 Million Euros so about £27 million pounds, ours was around 33.5 million for the first team alone.

Which begs the questions, if Brugge do pay that kind of money for their top players, do they just heavily underpay their other players? or do we just overpay our first team players in general?
 
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