Union Bears banner at stadium

Valley Bluenose said:
As I assume you well know, its a bit more nuanced than that. Otherwise for virtually their entire histories neither of the Old Firm would ever lose to anyone else. That's not the case and it never has been (though it feels like it with that lot right now). Little point comparing expenditure between us and the minnows, its the comparative discrepancies between the only two teams capable of winning the title that matters.
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No, if people want to make it a black and white issue relating to budgets then my point is valid. The gap between rangers and Celtic with the rest is as big as it’s ever been since I can remember watching games in the mid 90s

The highlighted part - nonsense. There is a point in comparing expenditure as it’s partly why there’s discontent; funds have been there and Wilson has squandered them on players that aren’t good enough and filled our squad with players that have no right being at rangers. Then you’ve got multiple players on high wages that contribute very little and are haemorrhaging money. Now we’re potentially looking at renewing Arfield and Jack

We have won, one domestic cup since 2018 - I use 2018 as the reference point as we were able to compete in Europe this season onwards. One cup. During that time, we have been beaten by Celtic in two finals and been put out cups on 5 other occasions by teams with a fraction of our budget

Why is it relevant to keep saying we need to accept being second best to Celtic due to budgets but we can’t point out it’s our failings against lesser teams, with budgets a fraction of ours, being the reason we’re trailing Celtic?
 
Skylon Niagara said:
No, if people want to make it a black and white issue relating to budgets then my point is valid. The gap between rangers and Celtic with the rest is as big as it’s ever been since I can remember watching games in the mid 90s

The highlighted part - nonsense. There is a point in comparing expenditure as it’s partly why there’s discontent; funds have been there and Wilson has squandered them on players that aren’t good enough and filled our squad with players that have no right being at rangers. Then you’ve got multiple players on high wages that contribute very little and are haemorrhaging money. Now we’re potentially looking at renewing Arfield and Jack

We have won, one domestic cup since 2018 - I use 2018 as the reference point as we were able to compete in Europe this season onwards. One cup. During that time, we have been beaten by Celtic in two finals and been put out cups on 5 other occasions by teams with a fraction of our budget

Why is it relevant to keep saying we need to accept being second best to Celtic due to budgets but we can’t point out it’s our failings against lesser teams, with budgets a fraction of ours, being the reason we’re trailing Celtic?
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I agree we've signed a number of players who turned out to be not good enough. Though I'd argue that's partly down to the market our budget sees us operate in. Probably not entirely, of course.

I'd also agree on the appalling Cup record, though its not something peculiar to this particular era of Rangers teams. Some of those defeats have been shameful.

I'm inclined to end that here though, since we've drifted off the topic of the Union Bears banner and the two of us have, also, been over the same ground ourselves on other threads. We'd simply be repeating ourselves. We disagree on some parts of this topic and neither of us is going to change our mind. Which is fine.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
I agree we've signed a number of players who turned out to be not good enough. Though I'd argue that's partly down to the market our budget sees us operate in. Probably not entirely, of course.

I'd also agree on the appalling Cup record, though its not something peculiar to this particular era of Rangers teams. Some of those defeats have been shameful.

I'm inclined to end that here though, since we've drifted way off the topic of the Union Bears banner and the two of us have, also, been over the same ground ourselves on other threads. We disagree on some parts of this topic and neither of us is going to change our mind. Which is fine.
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That’s fair. I do think some of what I’ve covered plays into the reason the Union Bears are protesting though and want change. I’ve said previously, I think Wilson is the one that should be getting replaced - I don’t think Robertson is the right man for the job but harder to quantify his failings

I think some parts are intrinsically linked and find it difficult to try and extricate blame away from Wilson over some of the points I’ve covered. To that end, my opinion is that it is linked however it’s clear you don’t agree with me on this but that’s ok
 
Skylon Niagara said:
That’s fair. I do think some of what I’ve covered plays into the reason the Union Bears are protesting though and want change. I’ve said previously, I think Wilson is the one that should be getting replaced - I don’t think Robertson is the right man for the job but harder to quantify his failings

I think some parts are intrinsically linked and find it difficult to try and extricate blame away from Wilson over some of the points I’ve covered. To that end, my opinion is that it is linked however it’s clear you don’t agree with me on this but that’s ok
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We probably covered that already in the aftermath of my post #17.:)

Anyways, off to keep up with the B Team thread now. Let's hope they get they week off to a good start.
 
The_Joker said:
How anyone can seriously think finance and spending power in football is 'irrelevant' is quite something.

On that note why aren't Forest Green top of the EPL? B-)
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Why have you taken my whole comment out of context to suit your argument?

Like I said, Last season what Celtic spent didn’t win them the league. We were 6 clear? When Gerrard left. Gio threw it away.

Funnily enough, he threw it away with dropped points against Dundee Utd, Ross county, Aberdeen. So if you want to speak about money spent, then why we dropping points to them?
 
Skylon Niagara said:
Again, I will repeat what I’ve said previously. If we’re going to use budgets as the reason we’re trailing Celtic then why is the same premise not applied to other SPFL teams who’ve taken points off us? Our budgets dwarf theirs

We’ve spent £12m+ this season on new players, other teams other than Celtic would bite your hand off for 20% of that. So the reason we’re behind them is because we’ve failed to beat teams with a fraction of the budget we have, whilst Celtic steamroller them

Also, since Gerrard came to rangers in 2018, Celtic have only beaten us in 2 domestic cup competitions yet we’ve only won, one domestic cup. Do you want to talk about budgets again?
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No team wins every game, every season in any league. Rangers and Celtic will finish first or second though.
 
PaulieGualtieri said:
Why have you taken my whole comment out of context to suit your argument?

Like I said, Last season what Celtic spent didn’t win them the league. We were 6 clear? When Gerrard left. Gio threw it away.
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They got off to a relatively rocky start, their new players they spent the best part of £30 million on then started to get better and better as a team. Us being poor under Gio and our players seemingly not giving 100% for him and his tactics is another factor that goes towards explaining it.
 
PaulieGualtieri said:
Why have you taken my whole comment out of context to suit your argument?

Like I said, Last season what Celtic spent didn’t win them the league. We were 6 clear? When Gerrard left. Gio threw it away.

Funnily enough, he threw it away with dropped points against Dundee Utd, Ross county, Aberdeen. So if you want to speak about money spent, then why we dropping points to them?
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Because, and unfortunately for us, in almost every league on earth the team that spends the most usually wins it. There are exceptions of course but close to 100% of the time the biggest spenders are the most successful.
 
The_Joker said:
Because, and unfortunately for us, in almost every league on earth the team that spends the most usually wins it. There are exceptions of course but close to 100% of the time the biggest spenders are the most successful.
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We win the league last season if Gerrard stays. Money spent last season would’ve been irrelevant. Gio threw it away.
 
Dr. Strangelove said:
No team wins every game, every season in any league. Rangers and Celtic will finish first or second though.
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Celtic have only dropped points against one team other than us. My point is, if budgets are used as the reason why Celtic are way ahead of us and battering teams, then people need to accept we should be steamrollering teams with ease too

I understand the odd bad result happens but the gap between rangers/celtic and the rest is the biggest I can ever remember. Every other team is utterly pish and the 5 sub rule gives us an unbelievable advantage now

Also people use the gap between us and Celtic as the reason our cup record is so bad. We’ve only been beaten by them twice in domestic cups out of 7 competitions. That is appalling and nothing to do with finances
 
PaulieGualtieri said:
We win the league last season if Gerrard stays.
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That's your opinion but not a guarantee. We were losing the first goal in almost every game before he left. Had lost to Dundee United and drew at home with Motherwell, Hearts and Aberdeen.

I very much doubt we would have matched Celtic's consistency after the winter break.
 
The_Joker said:
That's your opinion but not a guarantee. We were losing the first goal in almost every game before he left. Had lost to Dundee United and drew at home with Motherwell, Hearts and Aberdeen.

I very much doubt we would have matched Celtic's consistency after the winter break.
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Gerrards team wouldn’t have failed to beat Celtic in 3 games last season though so it’s swings and roundabouts. Point swing in either of those games would’ve made a huge difference

Also don’t believe we’d have lost the goals the way we did against Ross County away
 
The_Joker said:
That's your opinion but not a guarantee. We were losing the first goal in almost every game before he left. Had lost to Dundee United and drew at home with Motherwell, Hearts and Aberdeen.

I very much doubt we would have matched Celtic's consistency after the winter break.
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We certainly wouldn’t have got embarrassed at Parkhead, lost to them at Ibrox, lost 3 goals in Dingwall.
 
Dale Cooper said:
Who said it did?

It sort of allows you to have a fair idea of what they’re going to be doing as a group though. Some in our support seem to live very sheltered lives and think ultras are no more than glorified carol singers
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Ultras ?
Please explain their role within the club or our support.
 
Dale Cooper said:
It completely is, I know a few of them personally and they’re some of the most passionate Rangers supporters you could ever meet, who follow the side all over Scotland and Europe. It’s complete nonsense
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So do I and they are not the brightest , so it’s down to opinions.
I would follow us all over if I could get tickets.
 
Boyblue62 said:
So do I and they are not the brightest , so it’s down to opinions.
I would follow us all over if I could get tickets.
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So you believe a large group of people who’s only goal is to get “bongoed” have decided the most efficient way of doing this is to blow thousands of pounds following a football club across the globe that they have no actual interest in?

I won’t be engaging any further with you, you’ve said more than enough.
 
Dale Cooper said:
So you believe a large group of people who’s only goal is to get “bongoed” have decided the most efficient way of doing this is to blow thousands of pounds following a football club across the globe that they have no actual interest in?

I won’t be engaging any further with you, you’ve said more than enough.
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Fine - you have nothing to offer.
Goodbye
 
DerekSSR said:
Majority of the group do every game home and away, in Scotland and Europe.. But aye they've no interest in football according to you.
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Never said that.
UB I have no time for, they are self entitled.
It’s easy to understand- no?
 
JMCK said:
Dear oh dear. You will have the ins and outs of all this I suppose?
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It’s true. Davies and Cantwell were identified by Beale. We got Cantwell and not Davies.

We’ve been chasing Raskin for ages. Not sure what is so hard to believe.
 
Crispy Bacon said:
It’s true. Davies and Cantwell were identified by Beale. We got Cantwell and not Davies.

We’ve been chasing Raskin for ages. Not sure what is so hard to believe.
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What's hard to believe is that Wilson had no input to any of this, especially when you seem to have no real hard evidence to the contrary. Beale may like a player, he may impress them in a discussion, but is that all there is to getting those players here?
 
JMCK said:
What's hard to believe is that Wilson had no input to any of this, especially when you seem to have no real hard evidence to the contrary. Beale may like a player, he may impress them in a discussion, but is that all there is to getting those players here?
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Yes Wilson will have done the negotiating but Beale came in and wanted Cantwell from the off. I’m not going to pat Wilsons back for that.

Beale also said in a recent interview, unsure where, he’s given Wilson a list of targets he would like.

Wilsons failures far outweigh his success, if we are giving him credit for negotiating contracts such as Cantwells, then what about the absolute failures? The contracts which have been allowed to run down.

I get his remit is far more than signings but he oversees that and its the most important part of our clubs business.

If we think we can’t find someone more forward thinking than Wilson and indeed Robertson - then we’re in trouble.
 
PaulieGualtieri said:
If you’re wanting a grown up discussion, using the word “dhims” isn't credible you child.

Irrelevant what Celtic spent, the board appointed a manager who cost us the league. last season and gave new deals to players who are done.
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WTF are you on about Paulie, you want us to refer to these filthy inbred, paedo enabling, manky mutant c**** as Celtic?

Get a grip ffs :))
 
Crispy Bacon said:
Yes Wilson will have done the negotiating but Beale came in and wanted m from the off. I’m not going to pat Wilsons back for that.

Beale also said in a recent interview, unsure where, he’s given Wilson a list of targets he would like.

Wilsons failures far outweigh his success, if we are giving him credit for negotiating contracts such as Cantwells, then what about the absolute failures, the contracts which have been allowed to run down.

I get his remit is far more than signings, but he oversees that and its the most important part of our clubs business

If we think we can’t find someone more forward thinking than Wilson and indeed Robertson - then we’re in trouble.
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You make the negotiations seem a mere formality. On the other point, the rather broad brush that gives duel criticism to both Wilson and Robertson is interesting, because I have yet to hear a single in- depth coherent reason why it's so.
 
Skylon Niagara said:
Again, I will repeat what I’ve said previously. If we’re going to use budgets as the reason we’re trailing Celtic then why is the same premise not applied to other SPFL teams who’ve taken points off us? Our budgets dwarf theirs

We’ve spent £12m+ this season on new players, other teams other than Celtic would bite your hand off for 20% of that. So the reason we’re behind them is because we’ve failed to beat teams with a fraction of the budget we have, whilst Celtic steamroller them

Also, since Gerrard came to rangers in 2018, Celtic have only beaten us in 2 domestic cup competitions yet we’ve only won, one domestic cup. Do you want to talk about budgets again?
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Budgets isn’t the reason we didn’t beat at Mirren and St Johnstone
 
JMCK said:
You make the negotiations seem a mere formality. On the other point, the rather broad brush that gives duel criticism to both Wilson and Robertson is interesting, because I have yet to hear a single in- depth coherent reason why it's so.
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Stick with it, this will be long but you asked for it.

For the contracts - It’s his phucking job. It’s his day to day. He deals with contracts. He was hired so that it wasn’t Robertson left to do it. He’s done it thousands of times before. I am not giving a DoF a gold star for ironing out a contract for GLASGOW RANGERS. How far have we fallen when folk are really going to ignore Wilsons failures to praise him for contract negotiations with a player who was absolutely buzzing to get here.

There have been plenty of reasons why both should be replaced, but i’ll give my take on it and would like to hear your opposing views.

Wilsons job is overseeing football operations. In the time he has been here, we have won 1 league title and done so with around 8-10 starting players on average through the season who were identified and signed by Mark Allen. We have brought in players like Ramsey, Diallo, Matondo who are/were all on high wages with very little to offer. We have constantly scouted the same markets, and missed out on numerous targets and expect a different outcomes season after season. He has boasted about this player trading model yet we have a full squad of players with no resale value - because he has let our main assets run their contracts down and refused to capitalise on them at their highest value.

Robertson, the promise of upgraded disabled facilities which gets the usual sound bites year after year and should have been done when he was first asked about it as a matter of priority. Supposed to happen this summer? We will see.

He refuses to engage with supporters on safe standing, he’s embarrassed us with his “dossier”. Him telling anyone who will listen how important CL football is for our transfer budget, then when we qualify backtracking and labelling it a “financial myth”. Ticketing, customer service, communication with fans - all sub par. I’ve missed a lot but you get the point

As for manager appointments, wrong choice, took too long to appoint and too long to remove, costing us a title in the process.

Now if any fan can sit and tell me those aren’t valid points then we have fallen further than I thought. Keen to hear why you think those guys are incorrectly being targetted. Other than “but 55 and scottish cup”
 
Crispy Bacon said:
Stick with it, this will be long but you asked for it.

For the contracts - It’s his phucking job. It’s his day to day. He deals with contracts. He was hired so that it wasn’t Robertson left to do it. He’s done it thousands of times before. I am not giving a DoF a gold star for ironing out a contract for GLASGOW RANGERS. How far have we fallen when folk are really going to ignore Wilsons failures to praise him for contract negotiations with a player who was absolutely buzzing to get here.

There have been plenty of reasons why both should be replaced, but i’ll give my take on it and would like to hear your opposing views.

Wilsons job is overseeing football operations. In the time he has been here, we have won 1 league title and done so with around 8-10 starting players on average through the season who were identified and signed by Mark Allen. We have brought in players like Ramsey, Diallo, Matondo who are/were all on high wages with very little to offer. We have constantly scouted the same markets, and missed out on numerous targets and expect a different outcomes season after season. He has boasted about this player trading model yet we have a full squad of players with no resale value - because he has let our main assets run their contracts down and refused to capitalise on them at their highest value.

Robertson, the promise of upgraded disabled facilities which gets the usual sound bites year after year and should have been done when he was first asked about it as a matter of priority. Supposed to happen this summer? We will see.

He refuses to engage with supporters on safe standing, he’s embarrassed us with his “dossier”. Him telling anyone who will listen how important CL football is for our transfer budget, then when we qualify backtracking and labelling it a “financial myth”. Ticketing, customer service, communication with fans - all sub par. I’ve missed a lot but you get the point

As for manager appointments, wrong choice, took too long to appoint and too long to remove, costing us a title in the process.

Now if any fan can sit and tell me those aren’t valid points then we have fallen further than I thought. Keen to hear why you think those guys are incorrectly being targetted. Other than “but 55 and scottish cup”
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I'm not going to discredit your points, and I hope I haven't done that so far. The criticism of Wilson that you make, on the surface looks plausible, and if someone like me defends his record on any level, especially during a time of little success, then it's not really going to sound credible; I concede that- I'm very reluctant to give easy criticism to anyone at this club, I think that becomes clear through most of my posts on most topics, because we have difficulties in the wider context, in terms of comparative revenue etc; you say we shouldn't have much difficulty in persuading a player to come here, and that is a sentiment I'm very eager to share with you, but in the wider landscape we do have hurdles to climb yet. In the last few seasons this club has got to a European final, won a league, won a SC, and qualified for a CL; success could be better, we can both agree there, but we have still achieved things that hopefully provide a platform going to into the future. Can I ask one thing: do you think the situation with managers within the last 18 months has played any part in our present situation, and how much does that factor into your overall criticism as you present it here?
 
JMCK said:
I'm not going to discredit your points, and I hope I haven't done that so far. The criticism of Wilson that you make, on the surface looks plausible, and if someone like me defends his record on any level, especially during a time of little success, then it's not really going to sound credible; I concede that- I'm very reluctant to give easy criticism to anyone at this club, I think that becomes clear through most of my posts on most topics, because we have difficulties in the wider context, in terms of comparative revenue etc; you say we shouldn't have much difficulty in persuading a player to come here, and that is a sentiment I'm very eager to share with you, but in the wider landscape we do have hurdles to climb yet. In the last few seasons this club has got to a European final, won a league, won a SC, and qualified for a CL; success could be better, we can both agree there, but we have still achieved things that hopefully provide a platform going to into the future. Can I ask one thing: do you think the situation with managers within the last 18 months has played any part in our present situation, and how much does that factor into your overall criticism as you present it here?
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You say easy criticism however I have in the past been happy with Wilson. Probably up until after 55. Much of our success comes down to the people leading the squad and not the men in suits. Our budgets have been small and the likes of SG worked well with it - until we decided to not take it to the next level and they walked.

I wonder what does it take for those who defend wilson to really want change? Because in my opinion, as a Club, Rangers should have the best in class at every level and I don’t see that as Robertson and Wilson.

We could have a DoF who has a track record of working with his scouts to identify talents from every corner of the world, develop and improve those players alongside the coaching staff and capitalise on it when the value has increased, and in his years here he’s not really done any of that. Aribo maybe? Could we have got more from him in different environment? Maybe.

I feel as a support we are happy with the status quo until it goes terribly wrong and never a second before. See spivs, caxinha etc. We need to be proactive and not reactive to stay at the top.
 
Crispy Bacon said:
You say easy criticism however I have in the past been happy with Wilson. Probably up until after 55. Much of our success comes down to the people leading the squad and not the men in suits. Our budgets have been small and the likes of SG worked well with it - until we decided to not take it to the next level and they walked.

I wonder what does it take for those who defend wilson to really want change? Because in my opinion, as a Club, Rangers should have the best in class at every level and I don’t see that as Robertson and Wilson.

We could have a DoF who has a track record of working with his scouts to identify talents from every corner of the world, develop and improve those players alongside the coaching staff and capitalise on it when the value has increased, and in his years here he’s not really done any of that. Aribo maybe? Could we have got more from him in different environment? Maybe.

I feel as a support we are happy with the status quo until it goes terribly wrong and never a second before. See spivs, caxinha etc. We need to be proactive and not reactive to stay at the top.
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I'm far from happy in where we are at in the league, and found the performance in the LCF demoralising, but I firmly believe we can get better outcomes if Beale is given time and patience. As you say he played a big role in two players coming here, perhaps with Beale we might see much of our criticism elsewhere evaporate over time?
 
BalooBear said:
You ready to invest 20M ?
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No. But there must be interested parties willing to come on board? What about that American bid we had recently? At the very least we should be head hunting some of the best talent out there at boardroom level and getting them in.

We are all grateful to the board but a lack of foresight and lazy appointments cost us 56. How can we go from winning the league and getting to a European final to being so far behind them again so quickly ?

If we don't qualify for the CL again and they manage to pick up a couple of wins in the group stages they will be out of sight financially. That usually only ends one way in our league.

Its should be us in that position.
 
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