We are a better club now

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Don’t forget that. Our support have proven themselves way above and ahead of any other for the way we reacted to the mess of 2012, the infrastructure, the systems, the solidarity and the direction we are moving are all improved on the Murray years. We are owned by a better class of man, our manager is not Smith but may well lead us to success and we have a more valuable squad now than at any time in our history.


Someone, somewhere, tried to kill us and tried to do it from the top. This was not an attack of petty individuals, it was orchestrated, well, by people of power and influence.

That power and influenced was not enough. They tried to kill the club but instead galvanised the support. They tried to kill the club but instead saw it pass into safer hands. They tried to kill the club and now must watch as it grows stronger and starts to hunt down it’s usual prey.



Nothing, genuinely nothing at all will erase what each of us went through at this point. No salvation will be found in the knowledge of secure vindication and no punishment will change what we lived through. What it will do, should individuals or groups face the music for their actions, is hammer just one more nail into the coffin of their failed ambition, add salt to wounds of a failed murder and be a final little reminder of how they tried to take down a beast and simply made it stronger.

Remember that; through all of the shit and all of the pain, we are today stronger for it.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
The fans are stronger for it, and the community is, but the Club certainly isn’t.

We’re still years away from recovery.
We are not years away from recovering to 2011 levels at all, even ignoring TBC. Our turnover is back up, our assets are greater, our debt is significantly lower. The single thing we do not have is the trophies and they are all within touching distance as we speak.
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
We are not years away from recovering to 2011 levels at all, even ignoring TBC. Our turnover is back up, our assets are greater, our debt is significantly lower. The single thing we do not have is the trophies and they are all within touching distance as we speak.
Before this we were a self-sustaining Club paying back £2m of debt a year.

We’re nowhere close to break-even at the minute and it’ll be years until we are.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Before this we were a self-sustaining Club paying back £2m of debt a year.

We’re nowhere close to break-even at the minute and it’ll be years until we are.
We are debt free and are a single player sale away from self sustaining. We also have more players worth more money than at any other point in our history.

We absolutely have a bit to go, but a single league win or a single Morelos sale pits is in the best financial position we have ever been in. That is not years away from recovery by any wild stretch of the imagination.
 

Livibear

Well-Known Member
We are debt free and are a single player sale away from self sustaining. We also have more players worth more money than at any other point in our history.

We absolutely have a bit to go, but a single league win or a single Morelos sale pits is in the best financial position we have ever been in. That is not years away from recovery by any wild stretch of the imagination.
Yes, there are many positives mate, but we still have a long way to go yet.

We are still fighting to control our own retail operation, our second largest ‘normal’ revenue stream.

Who knows how long this will take, and how many more millions will be squandered in the fight.

I thank King and the other board members every day for carrying on this fight.

However..

I want tens and tens of millions in compensation, heads to roll, people jailed and years of the SFA publicly kissing our arses before I even begin to forgive what has been done to us.
 

Walters80

Well-Known Member
We as a club now need retribution for what’s gone on here. I hope we don’t just put out a statement then forget about it cause we’ve been robbed blind.

HMRC vastly overestimating what was owed clearly made the CVA decision invalid as they might not have had the percentage needed to vote it down. That’s an absolute scandal of epic proportions.

Oldco might have faced insolvency for debt that it did NOT owe just think about that for a minute.

And why did it take this mob almost 10 years to come to this conclusion?
 

Steve Snedden

Well-Known Member
There's a touch of the Nietzche "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." about the last 8 years although being vindicated would be a massive psychological boost for us, our communities and dare I say it, even the cause of Unionism in Scotland.

I pray we find the answers but I doubt we'll ever find any absolute proof of John Reid's Machiavellian hand.

Perhaps we need to focus on the positives. Aside from the galvanisation of the support, would we have ever entered the modern era of sports tactics, science and coaching without our travails?
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Yes, there are many positives mate, but we still have a long way to go yet.

We are still fighting to control our own retail operation, our second largest ‘normal’ revenue stream.

Who knows how long this will take, and how many more millions will be squandered in the fight.

I thank King and the other board members every day for carrying on this fight.

However..

I want tens and tens of millions in compensation, heads to roll, people jailed and years of the SFA publicly kissing our arses before I even begin to forgive what has been done to us.
The retail matters, of course it does, but really in the grand scheme of things it is not enough of a negative to outweigh the improvements. Not even close.

Ask yourself a simple question; would you rather be in the position we were in in 2011, minus TBC, or the position we are in today? Servicing a debt by downsizing, still only around £3million from merchandising anyway, or very much on an upwards spiral, a model that is about to start working as it should (through Morelos or Kamara perhaps?) and a support that never wavered.


I would argue we are not just ahead of where we were, we are significantly so.
 

VivaGraemeMurty

Well-Known Member
We as a club now need retribution for what’s gone on here. I hope we don’t just put out a statement then forget about it cause we’ve been robbed blind.

HMRC vastly overestimating what was owed clearly made the CVA decision invalid as they might not have had the percentage needed to vote it down. That’s an absolute scandal of epic proportions.

Oldco might have faced insolvency for debt that it did NOT owe just think about that for a minute.

And why did it take this mob almost 10 years to come to this conclusion?
If HMRC had got their facts right, we wouldn’t even have needed a CVA in any instance as Murray wouldn’t have felt the pressure to sell to even bigger crooks than himself.
 

Gibraltar Loyal

Well-Known Member
The management and playing staff werent directly affected by events in 2012, aside from yhe Rangers fans in our squad that suffered along with the rest of us, but by phuckthis news should galvanize them more than they are and make them realise what we are up against and what 55 would mean to the chosen
 

ThomasMRFC

Well-Known Member
We as a club now need retribution for what’s gone on here. I hope we don’t just put out a statement then forget about it cause we’ve been robbed blind.

HMRC vastly overestimating what was owed clearly made the CVA decision invalid as they might not have had the percentage needed to vote it down. That’s an absolute scandal of epic proportions.

Oldco might have faced insolvency for debt that it did NOT owe just think about that for a minute.

And why did it take this mob almost 10 years to come to this conclusion?
Because the damage was done as as things are now returning to normal. There’s no need to hide it anymore . Celtic no longer get free runs at the champions leagues or titles
 

Wilkinsvolley

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
We are making a lot of good from the absolute mess they made of our club. I definitely appreciate it more and we’re modernising from a clean slate but there’s still a bit to go on the structure and brand.
 

Mad John

Well-Known Member
The heart was ripped out of the club .

The continuity of a winning mentality , built from grass roots to over a century of competition to become an institution of the country , was destroyed and we became a laughing stock .

At present we are behind our biggest rivals who have just completed an unprecedented haul of trophies with the potential to increase that tally .

The support might be more galvanised but as a club we are far from where we should be .
 

SR11RFC

Member
We are still subjected to the sevco pish, zombies , your not rangers anymore, no such thing as old firm anymore etc .
I know it’s just taunts that are best ignored but I F’ ing hate it all!
did DK not say something could be done with old co to merge it or something ?
 

Careca

Well-Known Member
The retail matters, of course it does, but really in the grand scheme of things it is not enough of a negative to outweigh the improvements. Not even close.

Ask yourself a simple question; would you rather be in the position we were in in 2011, minus TBC, or the position we are in today? Servicing a debt by downsizing, still only around £3million from merchandising anyway, or very much on an upwards spiral, a model that is about to start working as it should (through Morelos or Kamara perhaps?) and a support that never wavered.


I would argue we are not just ahead of where we were, we are significantly so.
Don’t talk shite. We would possibly have won another 4 leagues by now, champions league places and without that imaginary debt which hamstrung us even then we could have soared. I want blood.
Forget the melancholy about hedges and the likes. Sitting frozen watching us struggle at home to Annan while Kenny McDowall was forced to manage us was the reality. Don’t let this seasons good feeling let you forget that.

PS I have read your post again and either you are at it or a complete zoomer.
 
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davyloyal

Well-Known Member
Don’t talk shite. We would possibly have won another 4 leagues by now, champions league places and without that imaginary debt which hamstrung us even then we could have soared. I want blood.
Forget the melancholy about hedges and the likes. Sitting frozen watching us struggle at home to Annan while Kenny McDowall was forced to manage us was the reality. Don’t let this seasons good feeling let you forget that.

PS I have read your post again and either you are at it or a complete zoomer.
I’m going to be selfish here and say that I, as a supporter, don’t feel better than I did in May 2011. In fact, after all the shite we’ve gone through, I am more disillusioned about Scottish football, Scottish politics and Scottish society in general than I ever was.

It’s what we’ve missed out on that angers me - that and the fact that forces have combined to give the vermin a free reign at winning titles, going into the CL and accumulating wealth at our expense.
 

Partickger

Well-Known Member
I’m going to be selfish here and say that I, as a supporter, don’t feel better than I did in May 2011. In fact, after all the shite we’ve gone through, I am more disillusioned about Scottish football, Scottish politics and Scottish society in general than I ever was.

It’s what we’ve missed out on that angers me - that and the fact that forces have combined to give the vermin a free reign at winning titles, going into the CL and accumulating wealth at our expense.
was always the driver for all this, couldn’t beat us on the pitch.
 

Bear all

Well-Known Member
Outstanding post it proves what at threat Rangers are to them ,what happened to our Club was nothing to do with petty hatred but a deep filled hatred of the fabric of our lifestyle in Scotland. I am non religious now but the attack on the Club was an attack on Scottish Protestantism they are after the Orange Orders now theres a war on and most of the population dont know it or care for that matter,Papism has it hands all over this .
 

AnglianBear

Well-Known Member
We are not years away from recovering to 2011 levels at all, even ignoring TBC. Our turnover is back up, our assets are greater, our debt is significantly lower. The single thing we do not have is the trophies and they are all within touching distance as we speak.
Hopefully this season takes care of the trophies but there is no doubt that 2011 has weakened us and strengthened the dhim witted ones - what was it, 8 straight years of the opportunity to get Champions League football gifted to them by HMRC?
 

IanDurrant

Active Member
After #55, the final stage of our redemption should be suing and destroying HMRC for everything they've put us through.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Don’t talk shite. We would possibly have won another 4 leagues by now, champions league places and without that imaginary debt which hamstrung us even then we could have soared. I want blood.
Forget the melancholy about hedges and the likes. Sitting frozen watching us struggle at home to Annan while Kenny McDowall was forced to manage us was the reality. Don’t let this seasons good feeling let you forget that.

PS I have read your post again and either you are at it or a complete zoomer.
You clearly fail to understand.

Today, as we sit, the club is in a better position than it was in 2011. That is not even close to being debatable. Yes, we went well below those levels, of course we did, but right now, we are in a better place than we were. It is hardly my fault you cannot understand that.

The acid test is actually very simple:

Where would you rather us be? Under Murray in 2011, selling Jelavic for £6 million and downsizing the squad in general significantly or under King today, investing and talking of £30 million assets?


of course we are not all the way back, but we have gone past where we were, we have a better leadership, far more tangible assets, a clear progression that shows season on season improvement and we have a galvanised support.

Zoomer.
 

dt17

Well-Known Member
We are not years away from recovering to 2011 levels at all, even ignoring TBC. Our turnover is back up, our assets are greater, our debt is significantly lower. The single thing we do not have is the trophies and they are all within touching distance as we speak.
We've been royally fucked over while the tramps across the city have had a free run at the league, Champions League etc for 7 years.

'sporting integrity'...remember that line?
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
The issue is not about recovering to 2011 levels anyway. The issue is about recovering to what would have been 2019 levels if HMRC hadn't deliberately falsified the numbers.
 

xd182

Well-Known Member
“I have been lucky – lucky in those who were around me from the boardroom to the dressing-room. In time of stress, their unstinted support, unbroken devotion to our club and calmness in adversity eased the task of making Rangers FC the premier club in this country.

“To be a Ranger is to sense the sacred trust of upholding all that such a name means in this shrine of football. They must be true in their conception of what the Ibrox tradition seeks from them. No true Ranger has ever failed in the tradition set him.

“Our very success, gained you will agree by skill, will draw more people than ever to see it. And that will benefit many more clubs than Rangers. Let the others come after us. We welcome the chase. It is healthy for us. We will never hide from it. Never fear, inevitably we shall have our years of failure, and when they arrive, we must reveal tolerance and sanity.

“No matter the days of anxiety that come our way, we shall emerge stronger because of the trials to be overcome. That has been the philosophy of the Rangers since the days of the gallant pioneers.”

I only wanted the last paragraph but didn't want to leave out the rest of the quote. To an extent I agree that we are a better club now because all we've been through, how we've stuck together and how we've (almost) come out on top.

However, it doesn't make up for any lost league titles and the revenue that would've come from success. And there's no getting away from that.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
The issue is not about recovering to 2011 levels anyway. The issue is about recovering to what would have been 2019 levels if HMRC hadn't deliberately falsified the numbers.
That might be the issue you are talking about but it is not the point I was making in the thread I made. The point I made, which a fair few are singularly failing to understand, is that regardless of what could have happened, what perhaps should have happened, the club today is in a better position than it was in 2011 on every level.

Of course things could be better but why would they be?

What is likely to have happened around 2011-12 if the BTC was dealt with correctly? Well, King would not be here for a start. Murray would have muddled through the downsizing, we would have spent 4-5 years clearing around £40 million debt (£20ish million BTC and about £18 million normal debt) and he would have either kept the club running much as before, but with less spend or he would have sold it (King would not necessarily have been a front runner in any bidding, he states he came to the club to save it. It would not have needed saving). We would not have been competitive in the league for that period of downsizing, meaning the financial advantage the scum had through CL participation would in all likelihood have existed anyway and we would have an unknown owner, perhaps even Murray himself, and precious little more than we do now anyway. We would obviously not have gone down the leagues and nothing will ever repair that damage, but I am not arguing that that 'adventure' was a good thing, I am simply saying it is now behind us.


To be clear: I am not saying we are where we could have been, or that we are now the finished article at all. It would be crazy talk. I am saying that given the choice of our existence TODAY vs our existence in 2011, none of us would choose to roll things back to Murray, debt and downsizing. The reason none of us would choose that is because today, as things stand right now, we are in a better place than we were then. I am not and have not said we are 'back' or that the issues are all fixed. I am saying that we are further along the road to that outcome than we were 8 years ago. Simple.


Anyone arguing against that last paragraph lines is of course welcome to their opinion, it is why we are here. One of you might like to try explaining why you would rather be back in 2011 though.
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
That might be the issue you are talking about but it is not the point I was making in the thread I made. The point I made, which a fair few are singularly failing to understand, is that regardless of what could have happened, what perhaps should have happened, the club today is in a better position than it was in 2011 on every level.
Which, given it's now 2019, is completely worthless.

We lost eight years for nothing.
 

JamboReid1874

Well-Known Member
We are still subjected to the sevco pish, zombies , your not rangers anymore, no such thing as old firm anymore etc .
I know it’s just taunts that are best ignored but I F’ ing hate it all!
did DK not say something could be done with old co to merge it or something ?
If your team is playing in blue, at Ibrox Stadium, and the fans still sing 'there's not a team like the Glasgow Rangers' then it's still Rangers to me.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Which, given it's now 2019, is completely worthless.

We lost eight years for nothing.
So, to be clear, you have absolute faith that had Murray remained, he would have overseen the clearing of £40 million debt and either built the club up to be better than it is now or he would have sold it to someone who would have done? THAT is the basis of your argument? Fair enough I suppose...
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
So, to be clear, you have absolute faith that had Murray remained, he would have overseen the clearing of £40 million debt and either built the club up to be better than it is now or he would have sold it to someone who would have done? THAT is the basis of your argument? Fair enough I suppose...
Mate, as hard as you try to argue otherwise, having hundreds of millions of pounds sucked out the Club because of HMRC's incompetence or malicious intent was not a good thing for the Club. It's bizarre that anyone would try to claim that it was, or that it was some kind of blessing in disguise.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Mate, as hard as you try to argue otherwise, having hundreds of millions of pounds sucked out the Club because of HMRC's incompetence or malicious intent was not a good thing for the Club. It's bizarre that anyone would try to claim that it was, or that it was some kind of blessing in disguise.
Point out where I said it was a good thing...You wont because I didn't.

You are simply not understanding the point that was made. So, for a final time:

Today we are in a better place than we were when it all started.


Nothing complicated, nothing earth shattering. Just a simple statement of fact.


Either agree or tell me why that simple statement is wrong.

Thanks
 

Big Buff

Well-Known Member
Point out where I said it was a good thing...You wont because I didn't.

You are simply not understanding the point that was made. So, for a final time:

Today we are in a better place than we were when it all started.


Nothing complicated, nothing earth shattering. Just a simple statement of fact.


Either agree or tell me why that simple statement is wrong.

Thanks
We're not, because we still have not normalised our income streams.

And being in a better position than 2011 is an extremely low bar to clear. So low in fact, that the point is absolutely worthless. The comparison has to be made to the position we would have projected to be in in 2019, had 2012 never happened.
 

Rfc loyal

Well-Known Member
Don’t forget that. Our support have proven themselves way above and ahead of any other for the way we reacted to the mess of 2012, the infrastructure, the systems, the solidarity and the direction we are moving are all improved on the Murray years. We are owned by a better class of man, our manager is not Smith but may well lead us to success and we have a more valuable squad now than at any time in our history.


Someone, somewhere, tried to kill us and tried to do it from the top. This was not an attack of petty individuals, it was orchestrated, well, by people of power and influence.

That power and influenced was not enough. They tried to kill the club but instead galvanised the support. They tried to kill the club but instead saw it pass into safer hands. They tried to kill the club and now must watch as it grows stronger and starts to hunt down it’s usual prey.



Nothing, genuinely nothing at all will erase what each of us went through at this point. No salvation will be found in the knowledge of secure vindication and no punishment will change what we lived through. What it will do, should individuals or groups face the music for their actions, is hammer just one more nail into the coffin of their failed ambition, add salt to wounds of a failed murder and be a final little reminder of how they tried to take down a beast and simply made it stronger.

Remember that; through all of the shit and all of the pain, we are today stronger for it.
 

Rfc loyal

Well-Known Member
Don’t forget that. Our support have proven themselves way above and ahead of any other for the way we reacted to the mess of 2012, the infrastructure, the systems, the solidarity and the direction we are moving are all improved on the Murray years. We are owned by a better class of man, our manager is not Smith but may well lead us to success and we have a more valuable squad now than at any time in our history.


Someone, somewhere, tried to kill us and tried to do it from the top. This was not an attack of petty individuals, it was orchestrated, well, by people of power and influence.

That power and influenced was not enough. They tried to kill the club but instead galvanised the support. They tried to kill the club but instead saw it pass into safer hands. They tried to kill the club and now must watch as it grows stronger and starts to hunt down it’s usual prey.



Nothing, genuinely nothing at all will erase what each of us went through at this point. No salvation will be found in the knowledge of secure vindication and no punishment will change what we lived through. What it will do, should individuals or groups face the music for their actions, is hammer just one more nail into the coffin of their failed ambition, add salt to wounds of a failed murder and be a final little reminder of how they tried to take down a beast and simply made it stronger.

Remember that; through all of the shit and all of the pain, we are today stronger for it.
Yes but the point is we shouldn’t of had to go through all that and it’s a absolute scandal what has happened.
 

Careca

Well-Known Member
You clearly fail to understand.

Today, as we sit, the club is in a better position than it was in 2011. That is not even close to being debatable. Yes, we went well below those levels, of course we did, but right now, we are in a better place than we were. It is hardly my fault you cannot understand that.

The acid test is actually very simple:

Where would you rather us be? Under Murray in 2011, selling Jelavic for £6 million and downsizing the squad in general significantly or under King today, investing and talking of £30 million assets?


of course we are not all the way back, but we have gone past where we were, we have a better leadership, far more tangible assets, a clear progression that shows season on season improvement and we have a galvanised support.

Zoomer.
You clearly fail to understand. All the things you describe about our current well managed situation could have happened regardless.

Rangers is an institution who have prided ourselves on sporting integrity and DIGNITY for nearly 150 years. That was taken from us. We have been a figure of fun for around 12 years with this hanging over us. Families LOST thousands in shares and debentures. In 2011 we had already faced years of downsizing due to this very issue. The jelavic fire sales need never have happened. Players sales comparisons then and now matter not a jot. WE ARE NOT IN A BETTER POSITION.

I applaud your enthusiasm for where we are currently but it has absolutely NO bearing on the wrongs that were done to us or the positions we could and should now be in.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
We're not, because we still have not normalised our income streams.

And being in a better position than 2011 is an extremely low bar to clear. So low in fact, that the point is absolutely worthless. The comparison has to be made to the position we would have projected to be in in 2019, had 2012 never happened.
So you think we were in a better position in 2011 because of our revenue streams not being normalised today? So we are ignoring the £18 million debt, player sales, negative net spend and who was running the club but not earning the full amount from merchandise outweighs that? Wrong I am afraid.

The bar is irrelevant and you are free to make any comparison you like.

I made the statement that we are in a better position now than in 2011. You are STILL unable to tell me why that is so wrong and such a bad thing to be saying. Either do so or move away as this is becoming circular and pointless. If you want to discuss where you feel we would have been if this had not all happened, the debate has many merits and is worth having. That was not the point I was making in the OP though and despite you saying it a few times now, I have never once said it was a good thing, all of the mess, or even that it was a blessing in disguise.

Cheers.
 

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
You clearly fail to understand. All the things you describe about our current well managed situation could have happened regardless.

Rangers is an institution who have prided ourselves on sporting integrity and DIGNITY for nearly 150 years. That was taken from us. We have been a figure of fun for around 12 years with this hanging over us. Families LOST thousands in shares and debentures. In 2011 we had already faced years of downsizing due to this very issue. The jelavic fire sales need never have happened. Players sales comparisons then and now matter not a jot. WE ARE NOT IN A BETTER POSITION.

I applaud your enthusiasm for where we are currently but it has absolutely NO bearing on the wrongs that were done to us or the positions we could and should now be in.

You are failing to understand the posts being given to you.

Yes, we absolutely could be better off today. 100% and it is a complete no brainer.

I have never said any different, nor even hinted at it.


The post is simple, but clearly not simple enough for you so I will distil it a little and see if that help:


People tried to end the club. they tried fucking hard. Today when they open their eyes and look at Rangers they see a better institution than the one they saw when they began their campaign. That means they failed. Things could be better for us, of course they could and in the next few years they WILL be better for us. Simple and easy.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Don’t forget that. Our support have proven themselves way above and ahead of any other for the way we reacted to the mess of 2012, the infrastructure, the systems, the solidarity and the direction we are moving are all improved on the Murray years. We are owned by a better class of man, our manager is not Smith but may well lead us to success and we have a more valuable squad now than at any time in our history.


Someone, somewhere, tried to kill us and tried to do it from the top. This was not an attack of petty individuals, it was orchestrated, well, by people of power and influence.

That power and influenced was not enough. They tried to kill the club but instead galvanised the support. They tried to kill the club but instead saw it pass into safer hands. They tried to kill the club and now must watch as it grows stronger and starts to hunt down it’s usual prey.



Nothing, genuinely nothing at all will erase what each of us went through at this point. No salvation will be found in the knowledge of secure vindication and no punishment will change what we lived through. What it will do, should individuals or groups face the music for their actions, is hammer just one more nail into the coffin of their failed ambition, add salt to wounds of a failed murder and be a final little reminder of how they tried to take down a beast and simply made it stronger.

Remember that; through all of the shit and all of the pain, we are today stronger for it.
All correct but, what a price to pay to prove it.
 

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