We can all agree and understand that the champions League is a step up from the Europa League.

Liverpool and Napoli have realistic chances of winning the competition outright. We could still finish third in this group which would be an outstanding achievement given we’ve also overcome PSV in the playoff round.
 
I don't know so much about regressing rather than peaking last season.
As a result of that and the huge increase in the quality of opposition we are facing this season folk have lost a grip on our position in football.
Folk cannot see the difference in not trying as opposed to beni made to look like you are not.
As a result it is sack Gio from them.
As posted already, many on here had us finishing second. Second ffs!
Maybe as the slow realisation finally sinks in for the majority now this place will calm down a bit.
I will still not include the matchday thread in that though. :oops: ;)
 
I would say there were times in the past few years when we got out classed in the Europa League but we had that mentality of wanting to compete even against " better opposition.

The braga home game 3-2 result also the benfica draws.

Two teams who are familiar with champions League football, Porto when we beat them were also in the latter stages of champions League football the previous season and competing with the likes of Liverpool.

I know it's semantics and theres a variety reasons we aren't competing now as it's a bigger step up but the mentality, drive passion and sheer willingness to compete with teams with much bigger budgets than ours was very evident.

What's evident now is that passion, drive and desire to compete seems to be all but gone now.

The tactical flexibility/changes gio utilised to great effect last season are non existent.

What's your thoughts and ideas on why we seem so tentative and unable to compete and I don't want to hear the gulf in budgets rhetoric as we know that, something has definitely changed this season.

From my point of view, the following covers what we are seeing this year.

1. We lost two first team starters in Aribo and Bassey who are exceptional athletes who helped us compete at the top level.

2.Our general fitness as a squad doesn't seem to be as good as it was under Gerrard with players such as Jack, Kent, Lundstram, Tavernier, Morelos looking noticeably heavier earlier in the season.

3. Injuries to key players means our central defence is very unsettled but hopefully past that now with King and Davies getting bedded in beside Goldson. Tavernier possibly carrying an injury in the recent run of key games. Morelos will take time to get back to top form after a long absence through injury but will hopefully be stronger and fresher for the rest of the season.

4. We have been drawn in the hardest group in the Champions League this year. We have possibly played similar standard teams at times over the last few years but the six games in this year's competition are unrelenting with each team at a very high level. Possibly Gio is not doing enough to put belief into the players that they can compete, but more likely the other factors in this list are causing us not to be competitive.

5. Last year was an exceptional season which took exceptional effort from many players. There's possibly a mental and physical hangover from last year's European adventures.

6. Some of the new signings have not hit the ground running. Colak can't be criticised in this regard. Tillman played a major part in getting us to the Champions League so has to be classed as a successful short term signing. Even in the Champions League qualifiers I did notice that Tillman seemed to give the ball away many times, and his lack of effort at Liverpool makes me think he needs a final warning or else get rid of him. Our team can't carry passengers. Yilmaz will get his chance when Borna starts to fade. Davies hadn't done a pre-season but is starting to make a contribution now. Matondo has struggled to get in the team but is a dangerous/fast player so hopeful he will do his part in the league. Tom Lawrence was doing well but is now injured for some time.
 
Confidence plays a huge part. The Dortmund away performance was the springboard for the EL run after that we thought we could beat anyone and the Ibrox factor became a thing, it got in the heads of our opponents. Braga for example looked genuinely terrified in that 2nd leg.

We've burnt the last 2 transfer windows of that there's no doubt and have kept ageing players too long. That manifested itself at Parkhead and within a few days we took the bad feeling of that game to Amsterdam and it continued on, add to that Napoli and the squad is now at the stage it expects to lose these games.

There's a negative feeling around the whole club. Most fans want the manager gone and even winning 4-0 at Tynecastle is just casually glossed over.

If you took our side from the first half of the 55 season and stuck it in this group the gap in budgets would be similarly enormous but the performances would be very different. That was a team playing with belief and a support in unison buying into what it was doing, we were also fairly injuy free.

Just now we're a fractured fan base, we've had poor recruitment, players drained of confidence, a manager harnessing no belief. It's just a recipe for disaster when playing elite level sides.
 
It's a step up but 9 goals conceded, none scored and being completely embarrassed in 2 of the 3 games is pathetic.

Let's be honest, we're lucky it's only 9 so far, Ajax and Liverpool could have had a few more.

This is a team that Napoli beat 4-1 and drew with Brighton at the weekend. They are not the Liverpool of last year.
 
I would say there were times in the past few years when we got out classed in the Europa League but we had that mentality of wanting to compete even against " better opposition.

The braga home game 3-2 result also the benfica draws.

Two teams who are familiar with champions League football, Porto when we beat them were also in the latter stages of champions League football the previous season and competing with the likes of Liverpool.

I know it's semantics and theres a variety reasons we aren't competing now as it's a bigger step up but the mentality, drive passion and sheer willingness to compete with teams with much bigger budgets than ours was very evident.

What's evident now is that passion, drive and desire to compete seems to be all but gone now.

The tactical flexibility/changes gio utilised to great effect last season are non existent.

What's your thoughts and ideas on why we seem so tentative and unable to compete and I don't want to hear the gulf in budgets rhetoric as we know that, something has definitely changed this season.

Manager already publicly said they can't compete

How's that going to fire you up?

Add in a system that stifles our creativity whilst still leaking goals
 
I would say there were times in the past few years when we got out classed in the Europa League but we had that mentality of wanting to compete even against " better opposition.

The braga home game 3-2 result also the benfica draws.

Two teams who are familiar with champions League football, Porto when we beat them were also in the latter stages of champions League football the previous season and competing with the likes of Liverpool.

I know it's semantics and theres a variety reasons we aren't competing now as it's a bigger step up but the mentality, drive passion and sheer willingness to compete with teams with much bigger budgets than ours was very evident.

What's evident now is that passion, drive and desire to compete seems to be all but gone now.

The tactical flexibility/changes gio utilised to great effect last season are non existent.

What's your thoughts and ideas on why we seem so tentative and unable to compete and I don't want to hear the gulf in budgets rhetoric as we know that, something has definitely changed this season.

Why do you think we got results against Braga, Benfica, Porto etc who were clearly technically better than us? Fight and organisation.

That was not apparent against Ajax or Liverpool.

I will say it until I am blue in the face, 2 out of our 3 centre backs didn't look like they knew how to play 3 at the back, they were getting dragged out of position so many times, one through inexperience and one through not understanding his role. It actually felt more like a flat back 5 at times because Borna and Tav were tucking in so much. Davis and Lundstrum looked lost in that formation, they didn't seem to know which one should push and which one should stick, none of them until late on were getting anywhere near the attack to support. Tillman is not a right winger. Kent should've been dropped weeks ago because his lack of effort is infuriating.

Our managers setup was wrong last night, the teams that have taken points against Liverpool this season pressed high and went attacking, why? The reason is, if you let Liverpool get their own their own way and time on the ball they will beat you and punish you because they have world class players. Their defence is low in confidence yet we allowed them so much time and gave them a bit of their confidence back by literally not attacking them until the 75th minute.
 
So far for me it’s only been the Ajax game that was really bad.

Against Napoli, who’ve proved themselves to be a seriously good team, we were giving as good as we got until the sending off and penalty. The two late strikes at the end gave the scoreline a look that didn’t really do us justice I felt.

Last night we were up against one of the best sides in world football. They have players worth more than our entire squad. I thought their speed of passing and movement was on a different level to anything we’ve faced in the past few years so as much as we could barely string more than two passes together the speed of their closing down and pressing forced a lot of those mistakes.

Simply put we look like what we are: a Europa League level team with a comparatively minuscule budget a bit out of their depth at the higher level.
I agree to an extent. The issue with last night is that we were doomed to failure with what was effectively a two man midfield. We neither parked the bus or made any meaningful attempt to a get a foothold in the game. They were always going to dominate us - so they should - but we watched it happening far too much rather than competing physically and working harder.
 
There is no doubt there is a big, big gap between the Champions League and Europa, that much is expected and obvious.
What is disturbing is our players and managements’ attitude towards that difference.

Somebody wrote in here yesterday that the players were going round Anfield “ like children on a day trip”, taking selfies, looking around in awe and wonderment etc.
Our Captain was interviewed and spoke about how he stood on the terraces and watched Liverpool guy his team last time he was there - about ten years ago apparently.

Unless and until Rangers F.C. as a Club, the Management, the Staff , the Players, believe they have earned the right to be on the C.L. stage and to play against the best then we will continue to whimper our way through these games with bowed heads and shrugged shoulders.
”Happy to be here” mentality is not the same as “ We can give this a right good go”

If you are out matched with natural talent then hard work and effort becomes the order of the day.

I wonder what Alex McDonald would have said to anyone that suggested a wee guy from Kinning Park shouldn’t be on the same park as “Kaiser” Frank Beckanbauer And his team of German Internationals?
 
I don't know so much about regressing rather than peaking last season.
As a result of that and the huge increase in the quality of opposition we are facing this season folk have lost a grip on our position in football.
Folk cannot see the difference in not trying as opposed to beni made to look like you are not.
As a result it is sack Gio from them.
As posted already, many on here had us finishing second. Second ffs!
Maybe as the slow realisation finally sinks in for the majority now this place will calm down a bit.
I will still not include the matchday thread in that though. :oops: ;)
I don’t think anyone sensible thinks we are not trying. It is more a case of looking lost. With the perfect game plan and the players playing full throttle we could still very well be sitting on zero points. The problem I have is that in two off the games we have looked like we have no idea how to go about playing these teams. Thats not OK. Gio doesn’t seem to have any real game plan.

For example last night we ended up with pretty much a flat back 5 and a 2 man midfield. In what world did Gio ever think we could retain any possession playing like that?

We are already hamstrung by having a far poorer squad than these teams, we can’t afford to also approach these games in an inept manner.
 
Last season we were fitter, braver and had a hunger to improve. Whatever happened in pre season with this team has had a detrimental effect.
 
Our group is undoubtedly the hardest of the lot ....unfortunately we are nowhere near the rest of them ...even when we do well in Europe it's hardly mentioned by our pundits and the mhedia. We didn't or haven't performed well so far but we are vilified so quickly by our reporters and the rest . Just look at the difference to the reaction of last night's performance against one of the probable finalists /winners away from home ,and then look at the tinks at home to Real Madrid getting humped , you'd think going by our press and pundits they'd won 3-0. Sadly We are miles away from competing at the top level in Europe and shouldn't really be too hard on ourselves ..WATP
 
There's no way Gerrard would be accepting this level of fight and desire from the players. Not saying his tactics were always great but we at least got in teams faces. We are so soft now.
 
I would say there were times in the past few years when we got out classed in the Europa League but we had that mentality of wanting to compete even against " better opposition.

The braga home game 3-2 result also the benfica draws.

Two teams who are familiar with champions League football, Porto when we beat them were also in the latter stages of champions League football the previous season and competing with the likes of Liverpool.

I know it's semantics and theres a variety reasons we aren't competing now as it's a bigger step up but the mentality, drive passion and sheer willingness to compete with teams with much bigger budgets than ours was very evident.

What's evident now is that passion, drive and desire to compete seems to be all but gone now.

The tactical flexibility/changes gio utilised to great effect last season are non existent.

What's your thoughts and ideas on why we seem so tentative and unable to compete and I don't want to hear the gulf in budgets rhetoric as we know that, something has definitely changed this season.
Don't think anyone ever deluded themselves into thinking it wasn't a drastic step up.

The issue is the piss poor attitude from the manager down.
 
The team as everyone knows is mostly the same since Gerrard re-started our Euro journey, some real quality needed to be added, we now find ourselves on the decline due to a combination of average squad investment and a massive step up in competition. The players dont look confident against Euro Elite, hopefully the final 2 home games vs Liverpool and Ajax will see us raise our levels and maybe even get some points.

Lets not forget that qualification to the group stages was outstanding.
Bang on the money.
 
That makes the attitude from players and management alright then...

Right now we wouldn't be doing much better in the Europa League. Some of those groups would see our current performances struggle.
 
That makes the attitude from players and management alright then...

Right now we wouldn't be doing much better in the Europa League. Some of those groups would see our current performances struggle.
The mauling and same neagative, cowardly, unorganised crapshow at Parkhead suggests you are correct.
 
Passions run high on the night of a poor performance. I'm as guilty of this as anyone. But there is no escaping the fact that we've set up tactically similar in 3 away maulings this season. In those matches we've been unable affect the game in any meaningful way. The players don't look comfortable in the system and they also aren't competing in terms of the physical battle. You can say we are "an entitled bunch of whatever" but we ARE entitled to have a team that shows up against Ajax, a struggling Liverpool team and Celtic with the belief that they can at least compete. If you just accept that "the gulf is just to big" and it's OK to get your arse handed to you without so much as inconveniencing these teams then honestly, what is the point? It's not an attitude I recognise or associate with our club.
 
Just spoke to my mate in Amsterdam and as an Ajax fan he is in a similar frame of mind to many on here. He turned off TV at 4 as Napoli were slaughtering them.

I have taken a reality check and realise that we cannot compete at CL level at the moment, however we can do so much better in SFPL. Something needs to improve at home in the league as CL progress is likely gone now and all we can hope for is a better performance next week at home V Liverpool and against Ajax in final match. Napoli will have already qualified by then and may be best chance of winning a match.
Irrespective, the management team do have to shoulder the bulk of responsibility for the performances as they picked the team and tactics.
I won't get into lack of investment in the team as that is a different matter but suspect that prudence and financial fair play played a part. Some of the signings do have a big question mark though.
 
It is a huge step up and we over performed last season In Europa too. You can't expect that to be the norm in Europe with this squad.
 
I wouldn't question the effort tbh. I see this a lot and not just with our support. I think there's a bit of a misconception after games like tonight. I think when your playing a vastly superior side sometimes it looks like there's a lack of commitment but in reality it is a symptom of being outclassed technically and tactically.
THIS IN FUCKING CAPITALS!!!!!!
 
Ajax, Napoli & Liverpool are much better than us. Everything is fine we got to the europa final last year. Utter drubbings from Celtic? Och these things happen, remember we got to the europa final last year
 
Ajax, Napoli & Liverpool are much better than us. Everything is fine we got to the europa final last year. Utter drubbings from Celtic? Och these things happen, remember we got to the europa final last year

Our current form would see us struggle in the Europa League.

We've hardly been great domestically either; Livingston, Kilmarnock, Hibs (before red cards), QotS, Celtic, Dundee United. Even Union Saint Gilloise in Europe was a shocker.

Nothing in our performances suggests we are away to hit a winning run.
 
We are a Europa league level team and I'm ok with that. If the money between the two competitions wasn't so big then I wouldn't be fussed at all. I know the board have said there wasn't much difference but that was because we made the final, which we wouldn't do every year.
 
I don't know so much about regressing rather than peaking last season.
As a result of that and the huge increase in the quality of opposition we are facing this season folk have lost a grip on our position in football.
Folk cannot see the difference in not trying as opposed to beni made to look like you are not.
As a result it is sack Gio from them.
As posted already, many on here had us finishing second. Second ffs!
Maybe as the slow realisation finally sinks in for the majority now this place will calm down a bit.
I will still not include the matchday thread in that though. :oops: ;)
Personally it's got absolutely nothing to do with the champions league form in deciding that Gio needs to go. It's the league form last season, and the shocking style of football on show domestically that has carried on into this season which is the problem. We are an accident waiting to happen almost every game. If you seriously watch us and think it's fine then I don't know what else to say.

The champions league performances are just a continuation of the poor performances we see just about every game domestically. The performances domestically have not improved in the entire time Gio has been here, and if anything the entire squad has regressed massively which is worrying. Nobody wants Gio sacked because we got beat off Liverpool, it's just another example of our dire tactics and dire style of football to add to the growing pile.
 
Our current form would see us struggle in the Europa League.

We've hardly been great domestically either; Livingston, Kilmarnock, Hibs (before red cards), QotS, Celtic, Dundee United. Even Union Saint Gilloise in Europe was a shocker.

Nothing in our performances suggests we are away to hit a winning run.

It sounds similar to the start of last season with the exception of the Parkhead debacle.
 
It sounds similar to the start of last season with the exception of the Parkhead debacle.

This time around we don't have anyone coming in for our manager.

It's the same tired, sorry faces being asked to raise their levels 4 years on. But, it's not all on the players, the manager takes equal share of the blame.
 
I don't feel particularly confident that we would look any better against Europa league opposition at the moment.

We matched Eintracht Frankfurt for 120 minutes earlier this year, they currently sit still in contention of qualifying from their group and took a point from Spurs last night.

Yes we have a tougher group but you'd expect Europa League finalists to at least have scored a goal by now and have had more than 6 shots on target across three games.
I agree. I am not really buying this team would be ok in the Europa League, I find our domestic level right now not to be consistent enough in level of performance or in energy. And I don’t think we will see if we are good enough for the Europa either.
 
I would say there were times in the past few years when we got out classed in the Europa League but we had that mentality of wanting to compete even against " better opposition.

The braga home game 3-2 result also the benfica draws.

Two teams who are familiar with champions League football, Porto when we beat them were also in the latter stages of champions League football the previous season and competing with the likes of Liverpool.

I know it's semantics and theres a variety reasons we aren't competing now as it's a bigger step up but the mentality, drive passion and sheer willingness to compete with teams with much bigger budgets than ours was very evident.

What's evident now is that passion, drive and desire to compete seems to be all but gone now.

The tactical flexibility/changes gio utilised to great effect last season are non existent.

What's your thoughts and ideas on why we seem so tentative and unable to compete and I don't want to hear the gulf in budgets rhetoric as we know that, something has definitely changed this season.
Last season Gio used what happened in the first game against an opponent to help us in the second game.

I'll wait and see what adjustments are made next Wednesday in team selection and tactics in what is simply a must not lose game.
 
Hindsight is wonderful, but it’s clear from the signings we made in the summer vs the players that we lost that making the CL group stage this year was by far and away about money first and football a distant second.

That being the case, Gio could have been a bit cleverer and said something along the lines of ‘we know we aren’t really tooled up for the CL this season so we will use our squad wisely, give experience to some younger players and fringe players, and keep our focus on winning the league so that we can try to consolidate and build on our status as a CL team’.

Then played a good smattering of the younger / fringe players. If we’d taken a doing then he had his excuse ready.

Instead we get hit for ridiculously high CL ticket prices to watch us looking fairly hopeless.
 
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