When UEFA fined Ajax for using the 19th Century Terrorist word

[RenfrewBear72]

To those asking why they can say or promote this word and we can't.
Complain to FARE.
Play them at their own game.
There are plenty of examples where they have promoted terrorism and used the word, so, take the examples and upload them and state you felt threatened by the use of this at a football match where thousands partake in sectarian anti British singing.
You want change, you need to make an effort for it.

 

[Turrabear]

Ask UEFA rather than posting the same pointless question? On every thread. You’d be as well posting “but rappers call themselves....”

It would if they did, they won't though. They know how to play the game far better than us

True mate .how many fines have they got and still their ground stays open.

 

[hammer-time]

Their banner only strengthens the argument against it. UEFA see 19th Century Terrorist as a race (no laughing at the back) and one that a large % of them identify with. What we are doing different is singing about being up to our knees in their blood. Its crazy you have to even explain this. 19th Century Terrorist hasn't been deemed sectarian in isolation so there banner is irrelevant.

Our argument saying but they call themselves 19th Century Terrorist is such a straw man argument. Replace the word 19th Century Terrorist with the N word and you can see how offensive it would be. While UEFA identify 19th Century Terrorist as a race this is the context we are in.

so you think 19th Century Terrorists means race now? don't tell me ..next its will be a religion!

As a club and support, we need to hammer home exactly what 19th Century Terrorist really means and it means nothing of what you have posted!

We should have been working together as a collective to get the message out there but so many are happy to expect others to get on social media whilst they sit on their arses and do nothing

 

[RAFBob]

Interesting thread stolen from twitter which shows in black and white UEFA's attitude to use of the word. If we want to play in UEFA tournaments (and possibly SPFL in the future) we need to play by their rules:

This is part of the ruling on Ajax unveiling a banner with the words ‘19th Century Terrorist bastards’ against Celtic in 2013. They were ordered to close the section behind the goal & fined €10,000. The reasoning is clear. Use the word and it will see your team punished. https://t.co/5fYtd1nZLl

So if you deem a word as offensive you can report it, for example if I hear people chanting, "sad orange bastards" I can report it, regardless of whether the people chanting believe the word is discriminatory?

We're bang to rights and need to accept the punishment and adjust our song book; however, we shouldn't allow others to carry on doing what they like, it all needs to be reported.

 

[Buzz Lightyear]

Why are folk adamant in keeping the word 19th Century Terrorist.

Get over it, don't say at matches and we won't face any punishment. It's that simple.

 

[Vote For Pedro]

Interesting thread stolen from twitter which shows in black and white UEFA's attitude to use of the word. If we want to play in UEFA tournaments (and possibly SPFL in the future) we need to play by their rules:

This is part of the ruling on Ajax unveiling a banner with the words ‘19th Century Terrorist bastards’ against Celtic in 2013. They were ordered to close the section behind the goal & fined €10,000. The reasoning is clear. Use the word and it will see your team punished. https://t.co/5fYtd1nZLl

This is exactly why the punishment is disproportionate to the crime. No one could have told you before yesterday that those songs had been sung, yet an explicit banner cops only a fine. We should not be singing the songs but the closure of a section is over the top IMO.

 

[GodStruth]

This is exactly why the punishment is disproportionate to the crime. No one could have told you before yesterday that those songs had been sung, yet an explicit banner cops only a fine. We should not be singing the songs but the closure of a section is over the top IMO.

I agree the punishment is draconian - no doubt about it, but its UEFAs rules or we don't get to play

 

[jigster]

its simple it really is the club have stated that they no longer want these words sung at games the manager doesn't want these words sung at games and they quite clearly told fans if its your intention to do so don't come to the games and Rangers isn't the club for you

 

[ChinaskiBear]

UEFA don't see 19th Century Terrorists as a race. You reckon they all have degrees in social anthropology ? UEFA are told by others with their own political agenda, ie, FARE, what should or shouldn't be acceptable.

You must have missed UEFA detailed explanation of what THEY define as a race that's been posted on numerous threads on here already. Yes they do. They have taken the most extreme politically correct view possible and there is not a thing we can do about it.

 

[giogaddi]

so you think 19th Century Terrorists means race now? don't tell me ..next its will be a religion!

As a club and support, we need to hammer home exactly what 19th Century Terrorist really means and it means nothing of what you have posted!

We should have been working together as a collective to get the message out there but so many are happy to expect others to get on social media whilst they sit on their arses and do nothing

UEFA does. It's their competition, their rules. The battle for this was lost 13 years ago. Singing it is literally harming our club. It goes now.

 

[Faure there’s not a team]

19th Century Terrorist is an Irish word, a political term, no different from Tory, another Irish political term meaning thief or robber. Just how the term has been twisted and weaponised to mean something it isn't says it all. Will we now see people being charged for calling someone a Tory bassa ?

Political slogans are also banned in UEFA competition. It isn’t a defence, and it’s fucking desperate at that.

 

[ChinaskiBear]

so you think 19th Century Terrorists means race now? don't tell me ..next its will be a religion!

As a club and support, we need to hammer home exactly what 19th Century Terrorist really means and it means nothing of what you have posted!

We should have been working together as a collective to get the message out there but so many are happy to expect others to get on social media whilst they sit on their arses and do nothing

I dont but UEFA do. The article has been posted numerous times with their explanations as to what quantifues as a race t them. It's their competition. Their rules. Are you suggesting we challenge them in court? You think the board would be willing to humiliate themselves and generate animosity with European Footballs most powerful organisation just to appease the rights of the staunch to sing f bastard ? In what universe would this happen?

 

[Britvic55]

Let's not kid ourselves on how the word 19th Century Terrorist is perceived.

Collins dictionary.

19th Century Terrorist

noun
1. (formerly) a member of an Irish revolutionary organization founded in the US in the 19th century to fight for an independent Ireland

2. Irish mythology
one of the Fianna

3. derogatory, offensive
an Irish Catholic or a person of Irish Catholic descent

 

[grandmaster_gaz]

You just don't get it. FARE will be coming for we are the people and no surrender as sectarian songs. You reckon UEFA will say they aren't ? Until FARE and their lies are challenged, expect more punishments.

Yeah but it's a bit easier to defend singing these songs rather than ftp 19th Century Terrorist blood etc. The club could rail back against that kind of victimisation but it's hands are tied with the aforementioned stuff

 

[monkey magic]

You must have missed UEFA detailed explanation of what THEY define as a race that's been posted on numerous threads on here already. Yes they do. They have taken the most extreme politically correct view possible and there is not a thing we can do about it.

I'll be happy to read where UEFA define 19th Century Terrorist as a race. Is there a link to the UEFA website. ? UEFA are bureaucrats and are told what is and isn't acceptable by politically motivated groups like FARE. Until we realise that, the situation is only going to get worse.

 

[ChiefWahoo]

19th Century Terrorist is an Irish word, a political term, no different from Tory, another Irish political term meaning thief or robber. Just how the term has been twisted and weaponised to mean something it isn't says it all. Will we now see people being charged for calling someone a Tory bassa ?

We simply must do the same for Hun and orange bastard.
19th Century Terrorist didn't become the paedos 'N' word by accident.
We have to get these terms viewed on the same level and then the filth will get punished.

We need to drop the attitude that we can't do something because that mob did it.

 

[GF7]

But it's ok for them to put it on a banner at the piggery

If they do it in a European game then no. They did it in a league game out side Uefa jurisdiction, if they do it in a European game and no sanction then that argument becomes valid.

 

[claddie]

Most of these arguments are pointless. We sing the songs we get punished. That is the only fact that is relevant

 

[Vote For Pedro]

We should just sing The Blue Bells are Blue! But then no doubt some arsehole would be offended for other coloured flowers!

 

[ChinaskiBear]

I'll be happy to read where UEFA define 19th Century Terrorist as a race. Is there a link to the UEFA website. ? UEFA are bureaucrats and are told what is and isn't acceptable by politically motivated groups like FARE. Until we realise that, the situation is only going to get worse.

Have a read at this: https://t.co/5fYtd1nZLl

Regardless of how we got there we are where we are. How do we fight this? Keep singing it? Court?

What if the situation was reversed. Replace the F word with Orange and the scum were singing up to their knees in orange blood would you be complaining if UEFA were closing parts of their stadium?

If you want to sing about 19th Century Terrorists, the pope, the UVF etc that's fine but just do it on your own watch. Our club is not the vehicle to fight these proxy religious wars. We are talking about songs you would get the jail for singing if you sang them in the town on a sat night. It was only a matter of time before this was all going to happen

 

[monkey magic]

We simply must do the same for Hun and orange bastard.
19th Century Terrorist didn't become the paedos 'N' word by accident.
We have to get these terms viewed on the same level and then the filth will get punished.

We need to drop the attitude that we can't do something because that mob did it.

I'm not advocating anyone using the 19th Century Terrorist term, mate. Our problem is FARE and its campaign against us. Until the fans realise that FARE are just another part of the culture war against us, we are really up against it.

 

[JedBartlet]

19th Century Terrorist has always been a derogatory word simple. We stop saying it we won't get in trouble. There is no other way around it. So why do some in our support still choose to use it?

Throughout the last 10 years of shite I've never been prouder to be a Rangers fan nor have I ever been embarrassed to be one, I've always fought for the fans and club when we have been called "huns" "orange bastards" "sub human" "the klan" or that we are facists or any other derogatory term. But how can you argue against the UEFA ban? We have embarrassed ourselves, our club, our manager and our players.

And for the Rangers da's who will keep singing it "cause it's our culture" get a grip and get out of Ibrox before you lose us points or get us kicked out of Europe.

 

[TN8]

Thats actually one of the only interesting threads posted on the subject.

Interesting to see that Ajax challenged it and how UEFA dealt with it. Should finally get it through to the people who want Rangers to do the same - its already been tried.

Also interesting to read the SFA stance on it differs from UEFA. No doubt some will take that as a green light to carry on in domestic games. Which would be a dangerous road to go down.

It would be interesting to read why we got fined for BMG back in 2011.

 

[monkey magic]

Have a read at this: https://t.co/5fYtd1nZLl

Regardless of how we got there we are where we are. How do we fight this? Keep singing it? Court?

What if the situation was reversed. Replace the F word with Orange and the scum were singing up to their knees in orange blood would you be complaining if UEFA were closing parts of their stadium?

If you want to sing about 19th Century Terrorists, the pope, the UVF etc that's fine but just do it on your own watch. Our club is not the vehicle to fight these proxy religious wars. We are talking about songs you would get the jail for singing if you sang them in the town on a sat night. It was only a matter of time before this was all going to happen

I don't think you're quite getting this, mate. UEFA only make decisions and punishments on loaded advice by the likes of FARE as to what is or isn't discriminatory.

 

[EH47]

But it's ok for them to put it on a banner at the piggery

Well, as things stand at the present moment it obviously is.
That's a fact, like it or not.
That just proves how much they've danced rings round us in the ongoing PR war.
While we are greeting on internet forums about them "getting away with it" while we don't, they're out there pushing their agenda every minute of every day.
We need to get smart.

 

[Netherburntrueblue]

Calling Frank De Boer an orange bastard is fine though as are banners saying ‘know your place Hun scum’.

Of course this is ok, nothing to see or report, Fare or nil by mouth wasn't there they were at another ground at the time.

 

[HandsomeHead]

You just don't get it. FARE will be coming for we are the people and no surrender as sectarian songs. You reckon UEFA will say they aren't ? Until FARE and their lies are challenged, expect more punishments.

I do get it and I agree that the club need to insist upon clear guidelines that will apply to others too, but in the here and now we need to desist with those songs that are deemed offensive.

We were warned, we didn’t really take it entirely seriously, now it is.

 

[Superrangers]

But it's ok for them to put it on a banner at the piggery

Nail on the head. It’s either offensive or complimentary. You can’t have it both ways I’m afraid.

 

[The Huguenot]

During the press conference a reporter asked SG how he felt given that he had attended a 'catholic' school. 19th Century Terrorist does not mean catholic and catholic, in its religious context, means worldwide. Evangelicals/Protestants refer to the 'holy catholic church' from the Apostles' creed. The are bigoted ignoramuses.

 

[GodStruth]

Nail on the head. It’s either offensive or complimentary. You can’t have it both ways I’m afraid.

Looks like they CAN have it both ways at the moment

 

[Nerf Herder]

I’d certainly be interested to see the reaction if we displayed a banner calling ourselves the ‘Orange Hun Army’

I’m sure nothing would be said...

 

[longtimedead]

You are an Orangeman - not offensive
You are an Orange bastard - offensive

There is the difference.

That’s why they get away with using 19th Century Terrorist and we don’t.

 

[Superrangers]

Looks like they CAN have it both ways at the moment

Indeed but that needs stopped. The status quo is just not acceptable. To be playing in a competition where others play by different rules is just a no-go.

They always go on about the atmosphere at grounds on European nights and how much it can spur teams on, yet we are being blunted by not being able to sing some of the songs that have been sung with the most ferocity down the years, while others can sing what they want, hence they don’t lose that advantage.

The likes of Wolverhampton Town, Down the Copland Road, etc. will never be sung in the same manner as the Billy Boys for example and will never generate an intimidating atmosphere. That’s just the reality of the situation and they know it, that’s why they have gone after us for them. It’s just another case of them trying to hold us back and for them to have every advantage going.

People can gnash teeth and wail about times changing, accuse people of whataboutery (pathetic phrase that shows you are losing an argument and have nothing else) and yes we will need to drop certain songs and add-one but what’s good for the goose and all that. It’s time this shite was brought out into the open and these corrupt scumbags at FARE were kicked into touch.

 

[Superrangers]

You are an Orangeman - not offensive
You are an Orange bastard - offensive

There is the difference.

That’s why they get away with using 19th Century Terrorist and we don’t.

When they sang Orange Bastard all night long at Frank de Boer it was deemed not to be offensive, so your logic doesn’t hold. Sorry.

 

[GodStruth]

When they sang Orange Bastard all night long at Frank de Boer it was deemed not to be offensive, so your logic doesn’t hold. Sorry.

No one complained about it though, or lobbied FARE

 

[New Jersey Bear]

The connotation of the word changed to suit their uneducated agendas. Bastards

 

[Alex Venters]

But it's ok for them to put it on a banner at the piggery

Not the point.

 

[deedle]

19th Century Terrorist has always been a derogatory word simple. We stop saying it we won't get in trouble. There is no other way around it. So why do some in our support still choose to use it?

Throughout the last 10 years of shite I've never been prouder to be a Rangers fan nor have I ever been embarrassed to be one, I've always fought for the fans and club when we have been called "huns" "orange bastards" "sub human" "the klan" or that we are facists or any other derogatory term. But how can you argue against the UEFA ban? We have embarrassed ourselves, our club, our manager and our players.

And for the Rangers da's who will keep singing it "cause it's our culture" get a grip and get out of Ibrox before you lose us points or get us kicked out of Europe.

What makes it especially annoying is that this is untrue. Most people of my age group never equated ‘19th Century Terrorist’ with ‘Catholic’.

I have no doubt that some believe the two are synonymous but in terms of the law the worst possible interpretation has been made in our case whereas the most benign interpretation has been made of the word ‘hun’ - despite the general public viewing both as equally offensive.

 

[ChinaskiBear]

Nail on the head. It’s either offensive or complimentary. You can’t have it both ways I’m afraid.

What has their banner got to do with this ? UEFA obviously see 19th Century Terrorist as an identity or group that people can associate with. The problem is we are singing about being up to our knees in their blood. That's the fundamental difference so many cant grasp. Highlighting their banner only strengthens the argument against us. UEFA do not give 2 fucks about the history associated with 19th Century Terrorist and terrorism. Its PC gone mad but it's the world we live in today

 

[tintin69]

Folk want to grow the fvck up. All sorts of moans and whataboutery and playing with words.
Stop using the term 19th Century Terrorist. Its that simple.
We have to many folk that appear to put their hatred of others way in front of their love for our club. Its pathetic.
And folk say the scum are obsessed.

 

[DeeCeeTee]

But it's ok for them to put it on a banner at the piggery

It’s the same as Spurs and the “Yid Army”, or black people using the n word. Just because they use it amongst themselves, doesn’t give you the right to use it in a derogatory manner.

 

[JedBartlet]

What makes it especially annoying is that this is untrue. Most people of my age group never equated ‘19th Century Terrorist’ with ‘Catholic’.

I have no doubt that some believe the two are synonymous but in terms of the law the worst possible interpretation has been made in our case whereas the most benign interpretation has been made of the word ‘hun’ - despite the general public viewing both as equally offensive.

I'm 36 and I've always known it as "19th Century Terrorist bastard" and I'd presume the majority do. And more importantly UEFA

 

[Timardim]

The devious Tim knew how we would react to their banner......Time we wised up.....stop fuelling them ammunition....no more offensive songs.....keep them away from the club

 

[RangersForever]

A few folk missing the point here - UEFA deem its use by others in an abusive manner as akin to racism

Theur definition is flawed, but its their tournaments and their rules, so we have to abide

The question is how have UEFA come to this view. Who has had input to help them come to this view? Have they had representations from both sides of the argument?

Surely UEFA are aware that in a country as polarised as Scotland, they need to use independent information rather than seeking the view from one side of the divide. FARE do not appear to be neutral. We need to demonstrate this to UEFA giving any relevant information. It won't change this decision but we can't have this situation continuing where we appear to be judged to different standards.

 

[BrunoBear]

How can people still argue when the facts are implicit in the OP?

 

[monkey magic]

How can people still argue when the facts are implicit in the OP?

There is no argument, mate. FARE, with their own proven agenda against our club, inform UEFA what they deem to be sectarian and then UEFA takes action. Until FARE are challenged by Rangers, then there is no point in countless threads on the same issue.

 

[GodStruth]

The question is how have UEFA come to this view. Who has had input to help them come to this view? Have they had representations from both sides of the argument?

Surely UEFA are aware that in a country as polarised as Scotland, they need to use independent information rather than seeking the view from one side of the divide. FARE do not appear to be neutral. We need to demonstrate this to UEFA giving any relevant information. It won't change this decision but we can't have this situation continuing where we appear to be judged to different standards.

I dint disagree, but at the end of the day it doesnt matter - UEFA set the rules, we either abide by them and participate or we dont.....

 

[BrunoBear]

There is no argument, mate. FARE, with their own proven agenda against our club, inform UEFA what they deem to be sectarian and then UEFA takes action. Until FARE are challenged by Rangers, then there is no point in countless threads on the same issue.

There is a thread on here with Kris Boyd saying he remembers asking fans not to sing it 15 years ago. Where FARE even around then?

The club have told us what to do, neither they nor the fans groups are going to back anyone against it.

 

[TynesideTrueBlue]

Yet the mentally challengeds had a banner saying 19th Century Terrorist army seems its ok for them they seem untouchable.

 

[giogaddi]

Yet the mentally challengeds had a banner saying 19th Century Terrorist army seems its ok for them they seem untouchable.

In a UEFA competition?