AzorIbrox
Well-Known Member
We know it's not but we've tried pointing out hypocrisy and double standards and it's fell on deaf ears.
Until we clean up our own act we've not got a leg to stand on in any such debate.
When UEFA fined Ajax for using the 19th Century Terrorist word
- Thread starter GodStruth
- Start date
We know it's not but we've tried pointing out hypocrisy and double standards and it's fell on deaf ears.
Until we clean up our own act we've not got a leg to stand on in any such debate.
Taiwan Loyal
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't matter if it was in a UEFA completion or not. What sort of example does it set? It's ridiculous what they get away with.
TynesideTrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Not sure but the word 19th Century Terrorist is deemed ok in Scotland terms to use but Uefa saying it’s its not, strange.
mr magoo loyal
Well-Known Member
Time to drop the word altogether, especially when we could use paedo bastards instead and that is not racist or political just plain fact!!!
ChinaskiBear
Well-Known Member
None of us like 19th Century Terrorists but they can call themselves whatever they like. The term 19th Century Terrorist is not offensive in isolation. Its being up to our knees in their blood is what UEFA have deemed offensive. They have actually played a blinder here because to some in our support it seems to have been a green light to sing about them with impunity.
We can argue until we're blue in the face about the meaning of 19th Century Terrorist and about them calling folk Huns and orange bastards. The facts remain are that UEFA deem 19th Century Terrorist as racist and as long as we keep using it in their tournaments then its going to cause us all sorts of bother.
ClockworkOrange
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I'm getting this one wrong, but is the issue not the evolution of the word "19th Century Terrorist" from that of membership of a terrorist organisation to a derogatory term for a Catholic to a re-appropriation from the Celtic support to refer to their own supporters?
ClockworkOrange
Well-Known Member
Probably a clumsy example, but is it not analogous to the use of the "n" word?
As stated earlier, there's clearly been a reclaiming of the word from Celtic fans.
I know a few more...intolerant folk who wouldn't use the word simply because it's used by them as well.
I also doubt anyone is thinking of a 19th century terrorist group when they're abusing the ref.
Why are you using f bastard in the same way as the N word ( as is used today) it has absolutely no similarities whatsoever?
There are many thousands of celtc supporters that in calling them 19th Century Terrorist bastards would fit like a glove.
They are 19th Century Terrorist bastards, we know it, they know it, they wear shirts with unrepentant 19th Century Terrorist bastards on them ffs!
Our fans now Singing that in a European sanctioned match is a totally different kettle of fish however.
Aye that'll show em!
Take it you weren't around in 2011 when many Bears did complain to the sham organisation that is FARE.
Their full details (including my pals )were then passed on to Celtc fc and its CEO Lawell, who then sent letters to the Bears in question - As clear a breach of the DPA as you'll see.
FARE and its CEO where sanctioned for this, a wee slap on the wrists.
They wouldn't even have recieved that but for a Bear on FF tenacity in chasing it till they were called to boot.
As we can see, the king is dead, long live the king with that bigoted organisation - They gave not one f*ck.
hammer-time
Well-Known Member
Say for example we sang Kumbaya... they would find something else to attack us about because this more than just about singing a song.
Its about who we are as a club and who we are seen to represent. For me this is political as we are hated.
Georgesky01
Well-Known Member
It’s a forum mate
It was asked multiple times on every thread. Nobody answered it and it just became something to deflect from the issue.
Freedom of speech is dead in this country, say what you want about the US and Trump but at least they fight for and understand the value of allowing people of voicing their thoughts.
All we are interested in is not upsetting someone using words.
The old saying of sticks and stones no longer applies in Scotland
But hey, that's progress for you.
All we are interested in is not upsetting someone using words.
The old saying of sticks and stones no longer applies in Scotland
But hey, that's progress for you.
It's not this county though, its UEFA that's banned it.
AzorIbrox
Well-Known Member
I'm fairly confident we'd win the argument that Kumbaya (for example) isn't sectarian to be honest.
hammer-time
Well-Known Member
you're missing the point! I'm saying we could sing that and it would be something else they would attack us for and then something else and something else
AzorIbrox
Well-Known Member
I'm saying if we're singing non-offensive songs then we can defend ourselves with confidence.
Something we can't currently do. We don't have a leg to stand on while singing about 19th Century Terrorists, Bobby Sands & co.
RenfrewBear72
Well-Known Member
I was around and vaguely aware but I was a younger pup then.
I will continue to try and fight it regardless if it falls on deaf ears
Make them spend money on admin dealing with reports and complaints. Make them spend money on lawyers validating things.
It has to be better than nothing.
bilkobear
Well-Known Member
I am not advocating the use of the word 19th Century Terrorist at the match as we need to act smart and ditch it.
However, calling someone a 19th Century Terrorist due to their support of a terror organisation that routinely murders people for sectarian and even ethnic reasons, is hardly comparable to calling someone a word that is clearly racist and intended to offend due to its historical antecedents.
I think we should dispel immediately any notion that the terms live within the same social spectrums.
Personally, I have good reasons to despise 19th Century Terrorists, I live every day with the consequences of their criminal activities, they and their fellow travellers will never in my eyes be sanitised before society no matter how many of their friends inside organisations like FARE make political manoeuvres to enable it.
They are 19th Century Terrorist bstrds and will always remain just that.
I know the meaning of the word when I use it and I can refer to a dictionary to defend that use.
However, I can easily ditch the word inside Ibrox and other football stadia in order to protect my club and therefore my own interests.
This is a game that we can win and win easily.
We can control such a narrative.
As for those inside FARE that hate the club.
I suspect that they are just another parcel of 19th Century Terrorist Bastrds.
I go with the old adage that if it talks like one and walks like one!
Topps
Well-Known Member
If they put the banner up at a European game they would get the same punishment.
GR6Ger
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t fucking matter
RedWhiteBlue
Well-Known Member
How many who are posting on this thread have even bothered to read the link in the OP?
According to UEFA they punished the chant "We hate Celtic, 19th Century Terrorist Bastards" as a racist chant on April 28th 2011.
So that was over eight years ago now.
Ajax were punished over a banner that said "19th Century Terrorist Bastards" at their match on 6th November 2013.
Ajax tried to argue that they did not think the word was discriminatory and UEFA said that doesn't matter. I think Ajax were initially also ordered to close part of their stadium over this but that was taken off the table in the end.
The bottom line being that UEFA consider the use of the word "19th Century Terrorist", in the context of "19th Century Terrorist bastards", as an insult to the dignity of a person or group of persons.
So it doesn't really matter at all if the tims are using the word because the context in which they use the word and the context in which we use the word is clearly different.
Unless we want to argue that context doesn't matter?
At the end of the day UEFA deemed this word to be "racist" in certain context 8 years ago. So I doubt we are going to come back now and convince them otherwise.
There is no evidence at all that if we stop using this word in chants and songs at Ibrox then UEFA will somehow start coming after something else.
It seems that UEFAs reasoning is pretty clear on this actually. They consider the term to be racist and have done so since 2011. So chants containing this term in the context that we would use it will be deemed racist chants.
You want to argue the point then take it up with UEFA. As far as the club is concerned that ship has obviously sailed.
Doesn't really matter if the tims are using the word in a different context in different competitions under a different ruling body.
According to UEFA they punished the chant "We hate Celtic, 19th Century Terrorist Bastards" as a racist chant on April 28th 2011.
So that was over eight years ago now.
Ajax were punished over a banner that said "19th Century Terrorist Bastards" at their match on 6th November 2013.
Ajax tried to argue that they did not think the word was discriminatory and UEFA said that doesn't matter. I think Ajax were initially also ordered to close part of their stadium over this but that was taken off the table in the end.
The bottom line being that UEFA consider the use of the word "19th Century Terrorist", in the context of "19th Century Terrorist bastards", as an insult to the dignity of a person or group of persons.
So it doesn't really matter at all if the tims are using the word because the context in which they use the word and the context in which we use the word is clearly different.
Unless we want to argue that context doesn't matter?
At the end of the day UEFA deemed this word to be "racist" in certain context 8 years ago. So I doubt we are going to come back now and convince them otherwise.
There is no evidence at all that if we stop using this word in chants and songs at Ibrox then UEFA will somehow start coming after something else.
It seems that UEFAs reasoning is pretty clear on this actually. They consider the term to be racist and have done so since 2011. So chants containing this term in the context that we would use it will be deemed racist chants.
You want to argue the point then take it up with UEFA. As far as the club is concerned that ship has obviously sailed.
Doesn't really matter if the tims are using the word in a different context in different competitions under a different ruling body.
Grigo Yossarian
Well-Known Member
Don’t disagree with you MB, but the issue is what do we do about that ?
Grigo Yossarian
Well-Known Member
It’s not deemed OK mate. People have been lifted for it.
What is different is that 5 Scottish clubs out of 80 or so voted for strict liability & that’s why at this stage domestic punishment hasn’t come.
Sir Sasa Papac
Well-Known Member
To be fair we tried to stop them years ago and got nowhere. Martin Bain told the media straight up that FARE were biased and out to harm the club. It didn’t make any difference, next game they were there again “observing”
monkey magic
Well-Known Member
It is FARE who are deciding what is or isn't offensive and discriminatory, not UEFA. It is UEFA blindly accepting anything FARE want punished. FARE never heard the sectarian Orange bassa song at the Piggery towards De Boer or saw the PIRA banners. FARE are a biased and discredited group and Rangers should be publicly saying so.
TynesideTrueBlue
Well-Known Member
I’m referring to the mentally challengeds using it mate on there banners T-shirts’ etc 19th Century Terrorist Army.
I think you've misunderstood, I don't want to hear 19th Century Terrorist at Ibrox, I want us to play the game as they have and get hun and orange bastard recognised on the same level.
It's easy for us to get rid of the songs, we did it before and they stayed away for years.
Their return was clearly in direct response to every other support being allowed to do as they pleased.
The not singing certain songs hasn't worked as it only applied to us, for me the best approach now is to fight to have these terms recognised equally so our fans see some parity.
The Royal Standard
Well-Known Member
UEFA are not the law in Europe what is needed is clubs (with a pair, and obviously more than on, Ajax could do them retrospectively) take them to court and fight for freedom of speech.
Yes you cannot be racist (5 races are recognised), religiousabuse is not acceptable but individuals and words that offend certain people no.
A lot of National Anthems are tribalistic including our own therefore illegal under Uefa rules.
We as a club and fans should highlight ALL offences under their rules, fight fire with fire, and until told otherwise don't use the words they say are offensive.
Yes you cannot be racist (5 races are recognised), religiousabuse is not acceptable but individuals and words that offend certain people no.
A lot of National Anthems are tribalistic including our own therefore illegal under Uefa rules.
We as a club and fans should highlight ALL offences under their rules, fight fire with fire, and until told otherwise don't use the words they say are offensive.
GodStruth
Well-Known Member
They wouldn't be intetested - it wasn't a UEFA gameAnyone asked Uefa what the sanction will be for this banner?
CoplandRoad
Well-Known Member
So when they display 19th Century Terrorist army does any footy authority act?
CoplandRoad
Well-Known Member
No, we need to challenge it in court.
texas_pedro
Well-Known Member
You want the club to go to court to argue that we should be allowed to sing a song with the word 19th Century Terrorist in it, knowing that that song is about being up to our knees in 19th Century Terrorist blood. And you think this is a good idea why? I’m glad your not on the Board advising on good PR moves. And uefa will love that challenge.
CoplandRoad
Well-Known Member
They use the same word in their own banners.
So how can it be sectarian?
Not possible.
texas_pedro
Well-Known Member
Two things - one is context which has been discussed already. We can argue this point and I’d agree that it doesn’t matter. However point 2 is key - it wasn’t in a uefa tournament that banner was unveiled. So quite what you want want uefa to do about it is anyone’s guess.
GodStruth
Well-Known Member
You cant challenge UEFAs rules in court. If we went to the CAS about this we woukd be laughed out of court and rightly ridiculed for doing so.
If you read UEFAs judgement on Ajax its quite clear why they regard the F word as discriminatory - its a battle we wont win
It all fucking matters.
Cutty/Young
Well-Known Member
Context of how the word is used, 19th Century Terrorist on it's own won't get you lifted, add a sweary word and you would.
Cutty/Young
Well-Known Member
They used the term "19th Century Terrorist bastards" on a banner, 19th Century Terrorist on the banner and nothing happens, context on how the word is used is important here.
I could walk along the road with a banner with the word "black" on it and nothing would happen, different context and add the word "bastard" beside it and i'd be jailed.
GodStruth
Well-Known Member
Nothing happened? They had part of their stadium closed and were heavily fined
Cutty/Young
Well-Known Member
Read my post again.
GodStruth
Well-Known Member
Apologies
Aye, but their banner would make no sense. If the poets had a '19th Century Terrorist and proud' banner that woukd be ok with UEFA as well
The definition of 19th Century Terrorist is a liad of shit, but its not an argument we can win
Cant argue with what you have said, and until told otherwise we cannot as a support sing that word in a stadium.
But what is the legality of UEFA punishing clubs for using that word as it is not deemed illegal.
As for their definition of sectarian, racist or personalised abuse!!! All grounds in Europe would be closed down.
Action Rangers Football Club highlight every song that breaches their code of conduct. Even to the point of slagging off an opponent's player.
FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE
Cutty/Young
Well-Known Member
I'll bet that if you wrote a letter or email to UEFA and asked them to define the word 19th Century Terrorist and asked them to clarify what it meant, I'll put a wager on it relating to catholics, such has the word been weaponised by people like Haggerty and Findlay and they would be wrong just the same as UEFA are. It's quite ironic given the punishment they have gave us from one of the most corrupt organisations on planet football and still being investigated by the FBI.
That's the million dollar question GY.
Are UEFA an open-minded organization that will listen to what Rangers Fans have to say about the word 19th Century Terrorist. Explaining that the word factually refers to a Terrorist Organization?
We must have NI brothers who have suffered during the troubles at the hands of 19th Century Terrorist's and there family members who suffered before them before them.
Factual letters sent to those in UEFA to support their claim that they (19th Century Terrorist's) are a proscribed terror group and not a religious organization.
bedsblue
Well-Known Member
