Why aren't Hearts a bigger club?

So cutting the number of teams in Scotland to 20 (for example) would suddenly see crowds rise across the remaining 20 teams?

Aye. Course it would. The inhabitants of Dundee are going to put aside their differences and support a combined Dundee team and absolutely won't simply stop going to football games.

Agree with this.

Cutting the number of teams and merging etc would only work if you had a time machine and went back 100 years.

Simple question is would we go and see "Glasgow Utd" if we merged with that lot? Would we f*ck. Its complete arrogance to suggest it should be any different with other rivalries.

The only way to improve Scottish football and get more people through the turnstiles is to make the product better. Better players playing on better pitches. But that would mean a short term financial hit for most clubs, which is why it'll never happen.
 
By packing out grounds up and down the country week in week out?

Rangers fans owe Scottish football nothing.

Teams can't rely on 2 visits from Rangers a season. You expect Scottish football to be thankful for visiting twice a season and putting some money into their coffers?

Scottish football as a whole needs more people through the gates on a Saturday afternoon. That's the only thing that's going to improve our game. More people going to games. More people playing football. More kids coming through the ranks.

If Scottish football can't attract more fans then it's doomed. No amount of rearranging deckchairs or apportioning blame is going to prevent that from happening. We need to start valuing our game and actually make an effort to get folk through the gates.
 
Agree with this.

Cutting the number of teams and merging etc would only work if you had a time machine and went back 100 years.

Simple question is would we go and see "Glasgow Utd" if we merged with that lot? Would we f*ck. Its complete arrogance to suggest it should be any different with other rivalries.

The only way to improve Scottish football is to make the product better. Better players playing on better pitches.

Its not even a case of making the product better. High skill, technical and highly tactical football can still be utterly boring as a spectacle.

We've been sold an absolute pup by TV. TV has managed to convince us that a drab 0-0 draw between 2 English plodder teams is better entertainment than a proper old fashioned battle between 2 teams who are going for goals. Our games can be very entertaining. It's not the style of football that we've been sold by TV for the past 25 years. The fact that not every player has the talent of Messi doesnt mean that they're worthless.

I absolutely despair when people criticise our game because it isnt the big money, big glamour stuff that they show on TV. Whats wrong with enjoying a game of football between 2 committed teams who are going all out to fight for a win?
 
Teams can't rely on 2 visits from Rangers a season. You expect Scottish football to be thankful for visiting twice a season and putting some money into their coffers?

Scottish football as a whole needs more people through the gates on a Saturday afternoon. That's the only thing that's going to improve our game. More people going to games. More people playing football. More kids coming through the ranks.

If Scottish football can't attract more fans then it's doomed. No amount of rearranging deckchairs or apportioning blame is going to prevent that from happening. We need to start valuing our game and actually make an effort to get folk through the gates.
No I'm pointing out that you posted a lot of nonsense. Rangers fans are not contributing to Scottish football 'hating itself to death'. They done that all by themselves.
 
I actually think hearts are the third biggest club in the country. I'd say both edinburgh clubs are some way bigger than aberdeen as well in terms of support.
Both Edinburgh clubs are bigger than Aberdeen but I would say Hibs are the third biggest club in terms of support size in the country. They’ve always drawn bigger crowds and have always had a bigger ground than Hearts.

Both clubs have a lot of fans in Fife, the Lothians and the Borders. I used to drink in a Hearts pub in Fife when visiting family and oddly the majority of punters were Hibs!
 
No I'm pointing out that you posted a lot of nonsense. Rangers fans are not contributing to Scottish football 'hating itself to death'. They done that all by themselves.

Rangers fans gave up on Scottish football long before the Craig Whyte fiasco. You can go back to the late 90s and see the signs of Rangers fans showing utter contempt towards the rest of Scottish football.

This isn't a new thing. The game in Scotland has been in decline for decades.
 
Rangers fans gave up on Scottish football long before the Craig Whyte fiasco. You can go back to the late 90s and see the signs of Rangers fans showing utter contempt towards the rest of Scottish football.

This isn't a new thing. The game in Scotland has been in decline for decades.
Gave up on it by packing out our ground every single week, and taking up every single allocation we're given despite prices being driven up when we visit? Some contempt. Perhaps we should start filling out the home ends for them too?
 
The population of England is about 60 million. The population of Scotland is 5.5 million.

The difference in the size of the customer base is huge. Hearts simply don’t have enough fans its as simple as that. And it will never change.
 
Gave up on it by packing out our ground every single week, and taking up every single allocation we're given despite prices being driven up when we visit? Some contempt. Perhaps we should start filling out the home ends for them too?

You’re confusing giving up on Scottish football with giving up on Rangers.
 
You’re confusing giving up on Scottish football with giving up on Rangers.
No I'm not confusing anything. As I said in my original post, Rangers fans owe Scottish football nothing. I'm shocked that I'm having to argue about this on a Rangers forum. If we're comparing Rangers supporters turning their back on the national team or cheering against Scottish clubs in Europe to the outright hatred and bloodlust that was seen in 2012 then I'm out.
 
They overspent, were close to being wound up on several occasions, went into administration, downsized dramatically and with the assistance of Anne Budge are trying to rebuild in a sustainable manner.

They are probably doing the right thing really.
 
I lived and worked in Edinburgh for a number of years and they have a huge support. Quite clearly those that have been in charge lack the competence to take them to a higher level.
 
They're the 3rd biggest team in the scotshit league,the biggest team in edinburgh but they are still a shitty wee club with wee shitty fans.
 
I lived and worked in Edinburgh for a number of years and they have a huge support. Quite clearly those that have been in charge lack the competence to take them to a higher level.

Those that were in charge almost had the incompetence to have them wound up, on more than one occasion.

Those that are now in charge are trying to rebuild the club.
 
Rangers and Celtic dominate the split of football supporters in Scotland in a way that skews the proportionate numbers considerably in their favour.
The religious identities of the club dictate a lot of people to almost blindly follow one or other, regardless of whether they ever buy a ticket and go to a match.
Back in the 50s or 60s say, a football fan living around Edinburgh essentially chose between two clubs and went to watch the match because there was limited coverage other than newspaper reports.. so ”going” to the match was a vital part of being a supporter.
Nowadays someone can be a “supporter” of someone and see most matches and know all the news about that club without leaving their living room. In that situation it’s easier to follow a big club who has more media coverage.

Another factor is proximity - it’ll take you around an hour to travel from Edinburgh to Glasgow so someone sitting over there who is willing to venture out of the house and would prefer to see a better quality of player, be part of bigger crowds and be a part of the media circus that is Rangers & Celtic can do that without much trouble.

You could argue that I’m part of the problem.. a football fan living just outside Reading and I’ve been to less than 10 Reading matches in 20yrs of living here.
Instead I’ve regularly been to see “better” football at Chelsea over that time and I essentially go past Reading’s stadium on my way into the town centre to go and watch Rangers matches in a pub in the town.

Similarly, you see plenty of Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City tops around Reading... if the folk wearing them went to Reading matches instead then you could argue that it would eventually generate a better status/profile/position for Reading.
 
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I grew up in Edinburgh. The amount of shit I took from 'hearts' fans who called me a glory hunter and never actually went to games themselves was insane. Potentially they are massive. Edinburgh will be bigger than Glasgow soon but it's full of absolute hypocrites

Edinburgh is not really going to be bigger than Glasgow.

Perhaps in terms of where the city boundaries are officially drawn, which have been redefined and reduced in Glasgow repeatedly over the last thirty years, but the Greater Glasgow urban area is 1.25m, which is about double that of Edinburgh’s.

In terms of catchment areas for the Glasgow clubs, you can probably swell that by a further half a million.
 
Scottish football as a whole needs more people through the gates on a Saturday afternoon. That's the only thing that's going to improve our game. More people going to games. More people playing football. More kids coming through the ranks.

If Scottish football can't attract more fans then it's doomed. No amount of rearranging deckchairs or apportioning blame is going to prevent that from happening. We need to start valuing our game and actually make an effort to get folk through the gates.

Do we not have one of the highest attendance figures per capita?
 
It’s always easy to claim clubs are small when comparing to us or the big English clubs. But the reality is Hearts (and Hibs) are on a par size and crowd wise with the biggest clubs in Austria, Hungary, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Belgium, Croatia etc). The crowds they get would compliment any of the top European leagues. Imagine they actually won the league consistently or were at the top year in year out. You really think Tynecastle would still be 20,000 capacity. I remember them taking 15,000 to The Piggery in spring (I think) 1986.. hordes of them cutting through George Sq. potential is there. Realising it is what separates truest big clubs from decent sized clubs
 
Why does Sidney Divine no play Caesars Palace ?
Hope that helps clarify things op.
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Of all the teams in Scotland I have the least hatred for Hearts and wish them no ill, I don’t know why they never grow and even with a millionaire owner now and safe hands they seem to struggle every year to challenge
 
But superstar Steve says they are a bigger club than we are :D:D


There are more poor sods with Ebola in the world than there are Hearts fans. Same difference, I suppose. Where do these loons think they saved Hearts when they went bust owing 30 million.
 
The Edinburgh is a rugby town argument is utter bollox and very lazy. Glasgow get a bigger average turn out then Edinburgh ffs.

It comes down to mismanagement. Hearts are a well supported club, so are hibs for that matter. You just have to look at it differently from judging other Scottish teams on us (and them). Scotland is a small country but the attendances at football games is generally high (relatively speaking in regards to population).

Hearts know they can’t win the league and I think that does effect the supporters as they are then happy with top Six finish and a chance at Europe.

Romanov fucked them, they will now be extra careful and rightly so.
 
Nonsense.

You don't attract bigger crowds to football by cutting the number of teams. All you achieve is to kill clubs and drive fans away from the game.

You think that if you merged Hibs and Hearts you'd have 40,000 fans turning up at Murrayfield to watch a team that could fight it out with the old firm? Or the 2 Dundee clubs? The 4 Angus clubs perhaps?

The whole "too many clubs" argument is promoted by people with absolutely no appreciation for lower league football and who have absolutely no interest in our game beyond single club loyalty.

Bang on, I've covered this topic numerous times so I won't go into it again. In short, it's simply big headed and arrogant to suggest smaller clubs should merge.

Regarding the op, the fact there are so many Rangers and Celtic fans from Edinburgh / non Greater Glasgow areas is one of the main reasons for the massive gap between the Glasgow sides and the rest imo.
 
In simple terms it comes down to cash. And specifically in Scotland because of the shit tv deals that means gate receipts.

Unfortunately for Hibs, Hearts and other clubs of that size when they had to modernise their grounds they lost their ability to generate big enough crowds to compete with Rangers and the other team. Grounds that could hold 30 or 40 k got halved in size with all seat stadia.

A team that can generate 40 to 50000 crowds even occasionally is a big team. A team that caps out at 17k or whatever isn’t.

A team with 17k crowds and no tv revenue is cannon fodder nowadays.
 
I worked in Edinburgh for 5 years in the early nineties and I found that there was more hearts men in the work and amongst the field operatives by far.

Although I was amazed by the fact that almost all the HIV guys there were proddies. Suppose it's a wee bit different now.
 
It wouldn't be popular but it would be the best thing for football in the city. I've never really appreciated the argument of sentiment in regards to this. You'd probably lose a few hundred or even thousands fans, but the second the amalgamated team starts picking up a bit of success, there'd be fans piling in. I'm sure that was the case in Livingston and Inverness (at least). Dundee could probably do with one team as well.

Would you want Rangers and Celtic to merge??
 
Stayed out in west lothian in a little village called winchburgh . kirkliston two miles down road close to the airport in my experience is Hearts /Hibs some bears and mentally challengeds but not a lot . In Winchburgh over whelmingly Rangers / mentally challengeds .
Reason is during the time of the shale mines a lot of workers came over from Ulster. This is also the same with New bridge and Broxburn .
So in the case of west lothian where the shale pits were Rangers/mentally challengeds where they ended Hearts/Hibs.
BTW in all the years I've followed Rangers away a packed Tynecastle always had a fantastic Atmosphere and in Dalry and gorgie after the game the local pubs would not go as far as bear friendly but never felt uncomfortable in them and had many a good night . Easter Road totally different
 
I worked in Edinburgh for 5 years in the early nineties and I found that there was more hearts men in the work and amongst the field operatives by far.

Although I was amazed by the fact that almost all the HIV guys there were proddies. Suppose it's a wee bit different now.
Mentioned on previous posts Stonewall stay out that way and until recently say twenty years ago Hibs were known as a masonic club .It was them that wanted the mentally challengeds to stop flying the tricolour was put to a vote they won the vote mostly because we voted along with the mentally challengeds
 
In the days before online forums;when printed fanzines were the norm,wasn`t theirs called `Always the Bridesmaid`?
Says it all really; an acceptance of failure before they`ve even started.
 
A lot of football fans are glory hunters and a fickle bunch at that.

The Domestic success of the 2 Glasgow clubs will have only helped to drag young followers away. Our fanbase allowed us to power our way back to the top. If we had been stuck for say 20 years in League 1 or 2 then I would be surprised if we had £50k every 2nd week

This last 10 years will not have been good in attracting young fans to our club, certainly outwith Glasgow.

Also with TV's Financial disparity, even nowadays in Scotland you see more Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juve, Man Utd, Man City etc tops a lot more prominent. As a result a lot of football fans in this country are now more interested in English/Spanish Footy.
This could be the next Generation of fan being lost due to TV and the closed shop at Europs elite top table

As for the Hearts of this world, they can only grow slowly and sustainably and if they can get a team on the park to perform punch above their weight over a generation (15/20 years) then their fanbase would rise and size of club as a result.

Its then up to them to show more ambition and belief that they can challenge at the top which no club truly believe they can.

We have to do the same looking up to the European clubs if we want to stay on their coat tails
 
Hearts don’t same to have the same issues as Aberdeen in filling their allocation at Hampden. They should be filling Tynecastle each week.

I live and work in Edinburgh and there are probably at least as many if not more Bears in my work as Hearts and Hibs fans. Not too many Celtic fans thankfully but occasionally HR drop the ball.
 
They have a local and near by support
Their numbers are on even par with Hibs

Old firm rule the population majority in a football sense
 
Having lived in various places in inner city Edinburgh for ten years now I have to say it seems the hiv are a bigger club, but maybe that’s because, as others have mentioned, Hearts draw more from the surrounding area? But it certainly feels like the hiv dominate the city outside of Gorgie and Dalry (until the OF come visiting that is).
 
Have Hearts & Hibs both not got record season ticket sales of about 15,000? That’s not too bad IMO. There’s no chance a merged club would get 30,000 season tickets.

I see them both on a par with Aberdeen in terms of size but the perception of many is that Aberdeen are the bigger club for 2 reasons - the Ferguson years & connection & in recent times McInnes has them consistently in the top 3, perpetuating a myth that they were title “challengers”
 
You're right in that they are. The question I'm asking is why our second biggest city can't produce a club capable of challenging the biggest one here. England has Manchester and London, Germany has Munich and generally speaking the Ruhr area. Holland has Rotterdam and Amsterdam, Portugal has Porto and Lisbon. I don't see why Edinburgh has failed as much as it has to produce a club that challenges for the national league.
Look at the overall populatuons of those countries. Scotland has the highest number of match going fans of any country in Europe.
 
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