Why can't the Old Firm learn from the Ajax model?

[Herman]

Scotlands mentality is wrong from top to bottom

I have a 6 year old that's addicted to football he's got a ball at his feet from morning to night

His age group are not allowed tournements they have to be called festivals which have no winners and if one team is winning easily you have to take the best players off

Its absolutely bloody mental

Then we can go to facilities we have no where to play in the winter as its like a bog

Spent this morning int he squash court with a ball hoping no one comes in and catches us

Scotland = Dunghole

This is a great shout, I’d go a little further and suggest some parents ruin youth football (especially under 10 year old) by basically over promoting their “talented” offspring so much so means some players who take more time to develop are marginalised or put off all together
coaching is still miles off when it comes to shape etc it basically win at all costs

 

[Artful Dodger]

I wonder how much an impact if any, the cultural differences in terms of drink/drugs/pubs/clubs from an early age has on development.

Great point. I would agree with you on this. Young guys in this country take it as the norm to go out and get leathered every weekend. Is it the same in the likes of Holland? Changing that culture for our young players must be hard.

 

[Ambiorix]

Disappointed to find out that 'the Ajax model' is not a leggy blonde with massive chebs.

 

[two2tango]

Chelsea are doing it right but we don’t have the money to match them

The players they are churning out just now are incredible

Mount
James
Hudson adio
Chalobah
The midfielder the sold to palace
Gilmour
There’s a few others as well

That’s some return

 

[TerryMunro]

Manchester Utd was going no where until they promoted their youths. Beckham,Giggs, Scholes, Nevillie’s all coming through at the same time allowed them the funds to buy some great talent to supplement them.
If we could get just two or three of our younger players to come through with Paterson then it’ll put us in a great place in my opinion. This Ex Ajax coach does fill me with hope.

 

[Tommy48]

Could the title of this thread not be why doesn't every club copy the Ajax Model.

 

[LetsGo]

I wonder how much an impact if any, the cultural differences in terms of drink/drugs/pubs/clubs from an early age has on development.

The difference is that we're pulling players from the areas where that culture is prevalent rather than areas where it is less prevalent. Maybe now we've linked with Boclair and based our education links in Bearsden/Milngavie it is less likely that we'll end up with wasters like Ross McCormack, Bob Malcolm or Stephen Hughes. That said we can still sign the odd senior player who lets the social life impact their overall game.

 

[Stuart_WATP]

Too much pressure on us and them to win every game and win the league at all costs. If we bought in 2 or 3 youngsters and drew at home the manager would be crucified. It's simply a different mentality and different culture. Being top dogs in this country is the be all and end all and it hampers us and them

 

[FortBear]

Other than man United with the class of 92, is there any big British club that has brought through a host of youth players at the same time in the past 30 years? It's just not in the culture of the the big clubs here, it's win now or be sacked.

Was watching Man City a couple of weeks or so ago and they put on a few youngsters - Palmer came off to be replaced by another young boy.

 

[Teddy bear]

The focus on youth in Scotland is to be big and strong over technical ability.

 

[The Gooner]

Because our managers will always play experience over promising young players. Look no further than Tavernier and Patterson.

 

[Spart7]

There are 18 teams at varying levels of ability in the top league in Holland, plus all the big teams have a second string in the division below. The style of, and culture within, football there is far less aggressive than here. Remember the young winger/striker we brought on against Motherwell and a clogger had him off injured within 5 minutes, or Brown nailing the young Hearts player who embarrassed him the game before? It can't be underestimated just how important that is in terms of hindering the introduction of young players in Scotland.

A 12 team league and 4x+ facing teams that always have something to play for discourages managers from trying youths. Bringing up the top 6 or even 8 from the championship and only playing each other twice would allow so much more flexibility in terms of personnel and rotation. The young players could be introduced slower and be under less intense pressure but still get the experience they require to progress. Teams in the 2nd tier for our top 5 or 6 clubs (if they could all afford it) would be a massive step in bringing these kids, who clearly do have talent, through by playing them against men who's first thoughts are about paying their mortgage this month instead of constantly against like minded kids wondering which designer washbag to buy as they've already 'made it'.

It's an absolute no brainer in terms of benefits to Scottish football as a whole and develops not only the ability and mindset of these kids but also encourages their desire and commitment as a very clear, working pathway to the first team is then there for them. They would also have a fallback of being taken on by other teams who have watched them competitively if they don't quite make it with the big clubs instead of falling through the current cracks. However, unless there is a huge swing in mindset at the top then neither of the above will ever happen and we will still be having this conversation when the Ajax Model is celebrating its centenary.

Does anyone really believe, for example, Sky would throw the baby out with the bathwater if the SPFL/SFA told them they would only be guaranteed 2 games a year instead of 4 as the league structure was changing? That they would walk away from Scottish football? I don't. They might pay slightly less but considering they are paying peanuts just now that could easily be offset in numerous other ways if we actually had fit and proper governance and I'm pretty certain BT or even Prime would step in even if they did. There is no down side or reason not to change other than countering the current tail wagging the dog scenario of the clubs deciding the setup rather than the governing bodies. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas etc, bonkers.

 

[Angrybluebear]

Also our youth teams were blown up during the spiv years - the pipeline takes a decade to refill.

Lets be honest that’s not quite true, what youth did we promote in the twenty years before them.

It never seemed to hinder Ross or Robbie McCrorie, even more recently Billy Gilmour,

We had the ideal opportunity to model ourselves on Ajax when we got demoted to the lower leagues.

I’m not saying he would have came but at that time we could have asked the question, Andy Robertson probably still raw from being released from Celtic youths, was clearly one of the best players in the division, was worth sounding out

However McCoist thought it better to sign the likes of Kevin Kyle and Emilson Cribari.

I've bored folk on here before but one of my neighbours was the Vice Chairman of a SPL club and involved in professional football for 40 years, and watched a lot of football at all levels. We were speaking before we started in the 3rd division I was concerned we didn’t have a squad, his words were your Under 18 team is good enough to walk the 3rd division and will win the 2nd it’s the Championship you need to be prepared for.

The fact we are still being linked with Kevin Nisbet who will be 25 soon and who we could have picked up for nothing or pennies various time previously tells you all you need to know about our approach to youths since the Advocaat years.

Hopefully with Gio here we might see the “if you are good enough you are old enough” approach.

 

[Main Stand]

Scotlands mentality is wrong from top to bottom

I have a 6 year old that's addicted to football he's got a ball at his feet from morning to night

His age group are not allowed tournements they have to be called festivals which have no winners and if one team is winning easily you have to take the best players off

Its absolutely bloody mental

Then we can go to facilities we have no where to play in the winter as its like a bog

Spent this morning int he squash court with a ball hoping no one comes in and catches us

Scotland = Dunghole

Winning is irrelevant at that age in my opinion, it’s all about developing the players and trying to get them to enhance their skills.

If there’s a competitive nature at that age, they’ll be less inclined to try improve skills and merely go about trying to win in the easiest manner.

It’s why you hear the likes of Craig Mulholland saying that winning is secondary.

 

[Main Stand]

Lets be honest that’s not quite true, what youth did we promote in the twenty years before them.

It never seemed to hinder Ross or Robbie McCrorie, even more recently Billy Gilmour,

We had the ideal opportunity to model ourselves on Ajax when we got demoted to the lower leagues.

I’m not saying he would have came but at that time we could have asked the question, Andy Robertson probably still raw from being released from Celtic youths, was clearly one of the best players in the division, was worth sounding out

However McCoist thought it better to sign the likes of Kevin Kyle and Emilson Cribari.

I've bored folk on here before but one of my neighbours was the Vice Chairman of a SPL club and involved in professional football for 40 years, and watched a lot of football at all levels. We were speaking before we started in the 3rd division I was concerned we didn’t have a squad, his words were your Under 18 team is good enough to walk the 3rd division and will win the 2nd it’s the Championship you need to be prepared for.

The fact we are still being linked with Kevin Nisbet who will be 25 soon and who we could have picked up for nothing or pennies various time previously tells you all you need to know about our approach to youths since the Advocaat years.

Hopefully with Gio here we might see the “if you are good enough you are old enough” approach.

Before the spivs?

Maurice Ross,McGregor, Hutton, Smith, Wilson, Ness, McCabe, Wylde, Burke, Adam (the one who should never have been allowed to leave IMO).

Probably plenty of others.

During the spiv years the academy was pretty neglected with poor coaches and poor scouting systems. Which shows by the plenty of youth players played, that just weren’t very good and their subsequent careers show that. Had we played a 1-11 of academy players, we’d still be kicking about the lower leagues.

The academy just now is the best it’s been in my lifetime, and thankfully we will start seeing realistic rewards soon, maybe we already have with Patterson. I know this won’t be acceptable to the folk with unrealistic demands though.

Bringing a couple through every couple of years is fine, folk expecting a 1–11 of academy players are nuts because it simply isn’t feasible at a club like Rangers.

 

[Hazylight1989]

Realistically every team in the world barring a few of the super clubs want to do it the 'Ajax way' ultimately though it is very very difficult.

 

[Main Stand]

Realistically every team in the world barring a few of the super clubs want to do it the 'Ajax way' ultimately though it is very very difficult.

Yeah, seems to be a myth on here that every top team in Europe field 11 academy players. Bit strange to be honest, probably shows how little attention some folk pay to world football.

 

[Dado's Bandage]

It’s a mistake that is as old as time and has actually had hugely negative implications for football clubs and national teams. Trying to lift someone else’s ideologies and philosophies and implement them in a completely different culture rarely works.

We also have no patience in this country and have often seen complete backroom changes when managers move on. Our new structure should suit that much better with a Director of Football in place. That said, some brain donors on here were wanting the B Team manager sacked following a poor performance from the first team last week. That more than anything highlights the challenges we have with developing players and letting them come through.

 

[sheddensbear]

The Ajax model only works if you can find players who will become top players. Ajax go through lean spells as well.

 

[Struths Canary]

It's a model that is very difficult to emulate. Of course we could emulate aspects of it, but it's not as simple as following a formula. As you've alluded to it's a club culture 60 years in the making. You can point to specific figures within the Ajax model and chart the changes or development of the model. It's not as simple as buy/bring in good youth, develop good youth and then profit. It seems that way, but it's not.

The fans mentality could shift, but it would require something seismic. It's not just as simple as accepting a few barren years or that young players are more prone to on field mistakes either. We've got the issue of having to cope with one of the most intense footballing rivalries in the world. Sure Ajax vs Feyenoord is fiery and hostile, but it's nowhere near as all consuming because they inhabit different cities. Also Ajax are by far the more successful club in that rivalry. The Old Firm, is far more intrinsically intertwined or claustrophobic, us missing out out on honours means they are picking them up. Our fans would have a hard time living with that and vice versa.

Ajax spend vast sums on the very best young players. But they also make vast sums from selling their best players, sums a team in Scotland simply cannot command. The perception globally is that Dutch football is far more competitive than the Scottish league is, this strengthened by the fact multiple Dutch sides have competed in European competitions for decades. Something our nation simply cannot boast. So although Ajax and PSV tend to dominate, there is quality throughout the Dutch league, varying degrees of it but the drop off isn't as severe. Dutch players in general are more highly rated than Scottish ones are, so they've got a massive jump on us by virtue of having a better pedigree.

Where I do think we can become more successful and lessen the financial strains we have, is by developing youth to the point we negate the need to buy so many 'Squad players'. Allowing us to strengthen by buying highly rated youngsters or players that can legitimately slot into our first 11. That's very doable from our perspective and it's also vastly cheaper as a method because youth players cost way less than buying in squad fillers. In doing that certain youth players could legitimately rise beyond the rank of a 'squad player'. Because football development isn't an exact science, players all develop at different rates both physically and mentally. That's something we can build towards, at least for now anyway.

Developing world class stars is tough but you can't tell me we can't develop level of Lundstrum, Balogun, Goldson etc.

 

[Angrybluebear]

Before the spivs?

Maurice Ross,McGregor, Hutton, Smith, Wilson, Ness, McCabe, Wylde, Burke, Adam (the one who should never have been allowed to leave IMO).

Probably plenty of others.

During the spiv years the academy was pretty neglected with poor coaches and poor scouting systems. Which shows by the plenty of youth players played, that just weren’t very good and their subsequent careers show that. Had we played a 1-11 of academy players, we’d still be kicking about the lower leagues.

The academy just now is the best it’s been in my lifetime, and thankfully we will start seeing realistic rewards soon, maybe we already have with Patterson. I know this won’t be acceptable to the folk with unrealistic demands though.

Bringing a couple through every couple of years is fine, folk expecting a 1–11 of academy players are nuts because it simply isn’t feasible at a club like Rangers.

You are missing the point completely, blaming the spivs for our lack of talent coming through is a complete red herring.

Barry Ferguson was on the verge of leaving us and would have had Advocaat not came in and played him regular.

My point was our Youth players would have been good enough to have won the third and second division without signing over 30year old journeymen who would stall the progress of our own young talent.

You have named quite a few players there that didn’t come purely through our youth system, Gregg Wylde for instance spent more time with Celtic youths than ours before we signed him from them.

Was Adam not also with Dundee youths ?

I am also pretty sure most of your list McGregor included started off with other teams before joining us.

Even at that, that is a poor return in all honesty.

 

[Main Stand]

You are missing the point completely, blaming the spivs for our lack of talent coming through is a complete red herring.

Barry Ferguson was on the verge of leaving us and would have had Advocaat not came in and played him regular.

My point was our Youth players would have been good enough to have won the third and second division without signing over 30year old journeymen who would stall the progress of our own young talent.

You have named quite a few players there that didn’t come purely through our youth system, Gregg Wylde for instance spent more time with Celtic youths than ours before we signed him from them.

Was Adam not also with Dundee youths ?

I am also pretty sure most of your list McGregor included started off with other teams before joining us.

Even at that, that is a poor return in all honesty.

Scotland in general has less talent than other nations, the lack of efficient scouting and coaching under the spivs obviously meant that we weren’t getting the best players or developing them.

Youth teams regularly sign other sides youth players, you don’t have the same squad players all the way through from U8s.

A fair few of the the current U18s, B team, and academy players we have out on loan were signed from other teams. Players don’t develop as expected, we have to constantly be aiming to improve.

It’s the nature of the food chain, other academies try to sign our best players and we
try to sign other academies best players. For example, we sold Mebude and signed Graham, Lindsay and Weston from other teams.

I disagree with your comment about the youths being good enough to win the 3rd division to an extent, I don’t think a sole 1-11 would have but the blend we had was good enough.

We played a fair few academy players during the lower league days, not a single one of them has gone on to do anything of note since leaving except Gilmour which is a different situation.

I’m sure I read a stat that said we have 4x the number of youth internationals than we did 10 years ago, the academy is fine and will bring its rewards.

It is in a tremendous state just now, and is only going to get better.