legalbeagle
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don’t understand why we try to diminish achievements. Nobody takes out Ally’s penalties from his goal record, or Boyd. He’s the only player I have known that gets that chucked at him.
Why does every poor result get blamed on Tav?
- Thread starter TriggersBroom
- Start date
Los Pollos Hermanos
Well-Known Member
Maybe we should knock off SuperAlly’s pens, take off big Albertz’s too since they seem to mean %^*& all to the Self Loathing Loyal, twisted weirdos.
I am not implying it as a slight against him, as I have said it is admirable he can take penalties, he is fantastic at them
But the actual event which leads to the penalty being won isn't actually always caused as a consequence of him, he isn't the main attacking threat which has lead to it.
It gets stated he is our main goal threat, he isn't.
A1bertz
Well-Known Member
My beef now is that if we play him we need to compensate and fill in for him when he goes AWOL. He simply doesn't have the legs now to burst forward the way he used to and he certainly struggles to get back. For me the right back still needs to be able to defend and protect and help the right sided CB during a game.
Even more important when your right sided CB is losing his legs now and is expected to chase the wingers your right back isn't there to look after. That's a huge weakness for me in our set up.
Tavs stats are there for all to see but I can't be the only one who sees his general passing / crossing etc as pretty poor but sure in amongst his norm there are times when a small % of what he does pays off.
Throwing 50 darts at that bull, missing with 48 of them but putting 2 hits in the stat bank doesn't make you a great darts player.
Single putting 2 holes and 3 putting all the others shouldn't generally see you ranked as a good golfer....
You can paint a different picture if you only want to count the good stats; the bulls hit, the single putts made, the assists, the goals scored.
Count total throws at the bull, count the total putts taken, count the total passes made, count the total shots on goal and then measure the successes against those attempts and the stats will look very different.
He served us a long time and he's given us some important goals and assists BUT there is a bigger picture here and in this current team, playing this current 'style' of football...it's not really working, for multiple reasons mind you....not just Tav reasons so it's unfair to target him in isolation. There are many others contributing to this shambles playing out in front of us...including our tinkering manager.
Even more important when your right sided CB is losing his legs now and is expected to chase the wingers your right back isn't there to look after. That's a huge weakness for me in our set up.
Tavs stats are there for all to see but I can't be the only one who sees his general passing / crossing etc as pretty poor but sure in amongst his norm there are times when a small % of what he does pays off.
Throwing 50 darts at that bull, missing with 48 of them but putting 2 hits in the stat bank doesn't make you a great darts player.
Single putting 2 holes and 3 putting all the others shouldn't generally see you ranked as a good golfer....
You can paint a different picture if you only want to count the good stats; the bulls hit, the single putts made, the assists, the goals scored.
Count total throws at the bull, count the total putts taken, count the total passes made, count the total shots on goal and then measure the successes against those attempts and the stats will look very different.
He served us a long time and he's given us some important goals and assists BUT there is a bigger picture here and in this current team, playing this current 'style' of football...it's not really working, for multiple reasons mind you....not just Tav reasons so it's unfair to target him in isolation. There are many others contributing to this shambles playing out in front of us...including our tinkering manager.
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
So if we replace Tav with a different right back, lose all his assists and let strikers take the penalties then it will mean what? If Dessers has 30 goals and Tav none does it mean we are top of the league?
We start scoring more goals and conceding less?
The attackers are poor. They don't create enough and don't score enough of what is created.
The midfield is poor. They don't create enough they don't score enough, they don't protect the defence enough, they don't run enough.
Tav is at the very bottom of the list in terms of problems in the team.
He has 8 assists in the league, for context, as I don't think many would consider either Johnston or Taylor as overly attacking, Johnston has 4 and Taylor has 5.
Factoring in Tavernier hits corners and freekicks, again, admirable, his assist numbers aren't that out of the ordinary this season relative to fullbacks of our main competitors and that is factoring them having superior attacking players would be your thought I assume given how poor you are saying our attackers are?
I would expect Tavernier is one of our top wage earners, we are about to enter what is a likely massive rebuild of the side, if a suitable bid was on the table, the notion he is untouchable just isn't out of the question to me. I wouldn't have much issue if we moved on from him, even accounting for work needing done in other areas of the team
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
I don't think he is untouchable. If we can sell for a good fee to reinvest then of course we should consider.
However as I said he is at the bottom of the list of problems.
I personally don't think that
If the means to raise funds meant Tavernier leaving it wouldn't bother me at all now.
douzpwa
Well-Known Member
When things are bad that is when the Captain needs to stand up! Last two games he couldn't pass wind and has been awful! Granted there are more than him but seeing you have made this thread about him it brings the attention on our Captain!
douzpwa
Well-Known Member
You name these player yet our defence have been giving gifts with calamity defending for years! Right now Tav's mind is faster than his body reactions along with others!
Colinrfc2
Well-Known Member
It's incredible ,he must be the only player who gets slated for actually scoring penalties
Some of our "fans " are morons
Where has he been slated for that?
Colinrfc2
Well-Known Member
Constantly on here ,there's always sly digs about him taking penalties
My favourite was the poster who said we could just get any fan from the front row to score from penalties
fair enough, not the kind of comments I can recall reading.
Not that hard to understand, he is the captain of the team and should be driving the standards but is often one of the main culprits when we bottle it every season. Gets all the praise when he’s scoring goals and needs to take the criticism when the other parts of his game that are badly lacking are also showing.
Not sure that anybody has faith in him and Goldson as captain and vice captain any more. Dujon Sterling’s words the other day were damning.
Not sure that anybody has faith in him and Goldson as captain and vice captain any more. Dujon Sterling’s words the other day were damning.
Tav unfortunately is the easy touch whipping boy, so many on here need someone to blame, Tav's inability to defend is not ideal in fact it is a major problem for a right back therefor he gets Cnuted off every time we lose a game of football, there are others equally culpable who do get flack but they generally for the most part seem to fly below the FF radar and not to the same extent as the captain.i believe his time is up at Rangers.
When he goes he will be missed as we will never again have a full back who scores as many goals as he does.
When he goes he will be missed as we will never again have a full back who scores as many goals as he does.
Taverneeeeer
Well-Known Member
Same posters on here salivating over him when his goal won us the cup. Mask slips with some who have been waiting on a chance to slate him.
By all means be annoyed at the squad for whats happened this season. But to target our top scorer, top assister and the only one who has shown real bottle (including stepping up and winning us a trophy) is absolutely ludicrous.
Taverneeeeer
Well-Known Member
I would say that is the job of the manager. As captain he should be trying his best, stepping up in big moment and supporting his teammates. He has done all of that all season. Ask the players what they think of him. Listen to the interviews from them all after we won the cup. The 2 first team players I know absolutely adore him and how he is with them and others in the squad.
Still though, everyone needs a whipping boy apparently.
Barryhopez
Well-Known Member
Oooh, do we not sale on the ship of fools?
Oooh, why is life so precious and so cruel?
Japandroid
Well-Known Member
Tav literally has more goals and more assists than any other player.
If it's not Tav who's our main goal threat, who would you say it is? Not having a go, it's a genuine question because I'm not sure who it would be.
He has 17 goals in the league, 12 of them are penalties.
That to me doesn't make him our greatest goal threat given so many are dependent on us winning a penalty or not.
Dessers and Sima are a far greater goal threat (as they should be).
Japandroid
Well-Known Member
That's fair. Sima was the other one I was thinking of especially with him having missed a chunk of the season. In saying that, him and Dessers only have five assists between them and Tav has eight on his own.
I don't know that one would be more of a goal threat than the other two but after those three there's no one else really contributing much and that's a problem.
TriggersBroom
Well-Known Member
The only threat that Dessers poses is to those that sit in Row M and above given how often he misses the target
Those in Row N must be in bother when Tav lets go a shot.
Dessers's shooting accuracy is 61.54%
Tavernier's shooting accuracy is 49.06%.
I would expect Dessers to be higher obviously, but it comfortably is.
SPRINGBOIG LOYAL
Active Member
That's probably more to do with the fact he is a defender though than people trying to take away the fact he is a very good penalty taker.
MancGer86
Well-Known Member
When Tav eventually leaves I do wonder how he will reflect on his relationship with the fans while he's here. He might be the most divisive player among his own fanbase that I've ever known at any club. He's bound to be aware of how much of a love/hate thing it seems to be with him.
Someone said earlier can't remember if it was this thread or another but when Tav plays well and is on form he has dug us out of several holes in the past but when his own form suffers, there's not been enough support for him in terms of other players stepping up to drag us through games. I can see the point in that so I do have some sympathy with him.
I've also been shot down many times for suggesting he move into right mid or a more advanced position from next season on so we can still benefit from what attacking qualities he has while not suffering from the defensive issues that come with him at right back. I cannot see why it wouldn't be worth a try. You've got your natural right back there in Sterling. Everyone rates him in midfield because he's done a job there but that's not his trade position. Play him at right back. Defensively sound and our most productive attacking asset further up the pitch to influence things there.
Someone said earlier can't remember if it was this thread or another but when Tav plays well and is on form he has dug us out of several holes in the past but when his own form suffers, there's not been enough support for him in terms of other players stepping up to drag us through games. I can see the point in that so I do have some sympathy with him.
I've also been shot down many times for suggesting he move into right mid or a more advanced position from next season on so we can still benefit from what attacking qualities he has while not suffering from the defensive issues that come with him at right back. I cannot see why it wouldn't be worth a try. You've got your natural right back there in Sterling. Everyone rates him in midfield because he's done a job there but that's not his trade position. Play him at right back. Defensively sound and our most productive attacking asset further up the pitch to influence things there.
TriggersBroom
Well-Known Member
If a ball fell to either player in the box, I’d be far more confident of Tav, our right back, finding the net than Dessers tbh
In this new modern world of salivating over numbers, it’s all good and well stating the obvious, however how does it breakdown to % minutes played, and for set pieces as a % taken.
I’d say Barisic for instance would have a higher number of assists in terms of minutes played and set pieces (not pens) taken if you compare over the period they have been here.
Both are better attacking than defending and I’ll go out on a limb and say more goals are conceded by us from our RB being out of position and or not stopping a cross than our LB, but that’s just a hunch.
Japandroid
Well-Known Member
Minutes played is a fair point. It's why I mentioned in another post above that Sima was the other one I'd consider to be our main goal threat. He has 11 goals and two assists but I'm sure that those numbers would be higher had he not missed a chunk of the season.
The out of position thing though is one I don't get. Tav's role is to get forward and join the attack, it's been that way for a few years. We had the perfect set up under Gerrard where the midfielders Jack and Kamara covered for the full backs getting forward. We don't seem to do so well at that these days. Tav arrived late in the box a few weeks ago to score against Hibs at Ibrox. He did it to win us a cup final this season as well. He's done it numerous times over the years, in big games too. If he's as out of position as much as is made out, why are managers are allowing him to get forward so much? It doesn't stack up for me.
SCG
Well-Known Member
He is unable to defend and obviously can't motivate his team mates.
SCG
Well-Known Member
No he isn't. Never captain material
SCG
Well-Known Member
No problem happy to confirm he is currently selected as our right back and Captain. Doesn't mean he is capable of either task though
ibroxbound
Well-Known Member
I understand that. I was talking in general terms over the time he has been with us.
TriggersBroom
Well-Known Member
He was the biggest contributor to us reaching a European final and coming within a penalty kick from winning it.
Contributed heavily to 55 and stopping that lot win 10IAR
ibroxbound
Well-Known Member
Again, albeit important,one season out of 9.We didn't win the Euro trophy.
We came within a disallowed goal of winning a Euro trophy in 1967 against Bayern. Nearly winning is not success
Los Pollos Hermanos
Well-Known Member
1/9 you say, could you explain?
prenzlauerbear
Well-Known Member
Both look amazing in The Blue Room.
Bigbluebear
Well-Known Member
Obviously thinks Tav should have been inspiring Harry Forrester and Joe Dodoo to winning the title (prior to becoming captain as well).
I'm sure Richard Gough would have struggled to win trophies with some of the shite Tav has had to play with regularly. Equally, I'm sure Tav would have far more trophies if he had been playing with guys like Laudrup, Gazza and McCoist.
Los Pollos Hermanos
Well-Known Member
Aye by the looks of things he should have won the Premiership while playing in the Championship.
ibroxbound
Well-Known Member
If Tav had been in a team with Gough as captain and had made that comment about the team not handling opposition getting in your face then he would have been verbally slapped around the dressing room.
That's the difference between them
granda bob
Well-Known Member
You have to be careful with this sensible stuff, you don't allow the Tav fan boys to call you a hater, and you don't allow the haters to call you a Tav fan boy.
Michael Mols
Well-Known Member
You could replace Tav with prime Cafu and it wouldn’t stop Dessers missing sitters or Matondo running the ball over the goal line.
The problem isn’t individual players. The entire squad isn’t strong enough. Poor recruitment and lack of finances are leaving us behind.
The problem isn’t individual players. The entire squad isn’t strong enough. Poor recruitment and lack of finances are leaving us behind.
Bluemingoodbloke
Well-Known Member
In a direct answer to the question, I don’t think every poor result does get blamed on Tav.
However there is no doubt he has been culpable in several matches with some shocking performances, particularly recently.
His ability to defend depends heavily on his awareness of what is going on/who is around him and positioning/readying himself accordingly.
Being left side of our left sided centre back or jogging back from an attack when our defence is seriously under threat, is not where I want my right back to be.
It’s all very well to highlight what he contributes at the other end, but if we keep shipping the most preventable of goals… as we do, any benefit he poses in attack is negated by our inability to defend.
Just my opinion, as I’ve obviously no proof, but I believe opponents now target that side of our defence as a weak area and if that is the case and Tav is exposed he will undoubtedly get some flack.
Having said that, I stand by my original statement that I don’t believe Tav gets the blame for every poor result, but there is also no reason why some of his performances should not come into question.
However there is no doubt he has been culpable in several matches with some shocking performances, particularly recently.
His ability to defend depends heavily on his awareness of what is going on/who is around him and positioning/readying himself accordingly.
Being left side of our left sided centre back or jogging back from an attack when our defence is seriously under threat, is not where I want my right back to be.
It’s all very well to highlight what he contributes at the other end, but if we keep shipping the most preventable of goals… as we do, any benefit he poses in attack is negated by our inability to defend.
Just my opinion, as I’ve obviously no proof, but I believe opponents now target that side of our defence as a weak area and if that is the case and Tav is exposed he will undoubtedly get some flack.
Having said that, I stand by my original statement that I don’t believe Tav gets the blame for every poor result, but there is also no reason why some of his performances should not come into question.
