Why doesn't Scotland 'rip it up and start again' re youth development?

Earl of Leven

Well-Known Member
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With the women now we can see that the general approach in terms of tactics, technique and passing is horrendous. This is where our women have gained equality.

Isn't it clear that we need a reboot, like Belgium or Germany, or Portugal, or etc etc etc.

Is it just money? Is it the 'jobs for the boys' where they all get tickets for cup finals and EURO tournaments? is it a refusal of coaches to let in new blood?

At what stage do the people at the centre of this clusterfuck stop, pause, take a deep breath and stop throwing good money after bad? Why not take first steps now to turn it round?
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
My wide sweeping statement re this would be I reckon there is a generation of Roxborough desciples needs phased out.

The coaching I see, loads of it is kids being encouraged to touch, pass, move, heads up football.

The grass root base level learning of kids core skills is grand.

The issue re moving away from that seems to come from the ages of 16 + when the generation of Roxboroughball still seems to exist in so many

I do think there needs to be more Elite group for kids who show clear talent and are fast tracked - that's probably the key to a better national team.

In Rugby, which is a comparison I oft use as I am probably more educated in it than football at coaching level - it is pretty closed shop re national team in that you play for a private school you have a hell of a chance of national team stuff at Unders and it is an "Elite group" who are educated and given elite training by a higher level of coaches than some kids who just get enthusiastic parents - I do think that's a model needed for international level players.
 
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My wide sweeping statement re would be I reckon there is a generation of Roxborough desciples needs phased out.

The coaching I see, loads of it is kids being encouraged to touch, pass, move, heads up football.

The grass root base level learning of kids core skills is grand.

The issue re moving away from that seems to come from the ages of 16 + when the generation of Roxboroughball still seems to exist in so many

I do think there needs to be more Elite group for kids who show clear talent and are fast tracked - that's probably the key to a better national team.

In Rugby, which is a comparison I oft use as I am probably more educated in it than football - it is pretty closed shop re national team in that you play for a private school you have a hell of a chance of national team stuff at Unders and it is an "Elite group" who are educated and given elite training by a higher level of coaches than some kids who just get enthusiastic parents.
Disagree regarding grassroots, still hear loads of coaches encouraging the physical element of the game and route one football.
 

Smkz23

Well-Known Member
Haven’t we ripped it up and started again a few times now in the past few years with the likes of Mark Wotte restructuring the youth set up ?
 
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RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Disagree regarding grassroots, still hear loads of coaches encouraging the physical element of the game and route one football.
I don't doubt it happens, I haven't seen it personally.

I wouldn't be adverse to the physical side of the game being encouraged personally, it is a part of football - no issues with kids learning that skill.
 

dapper dado

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt it happens, I haven't seen it personally.

I wouldn't be adverse to the physical side of the game being encouraged personally, it is a part of football - no issues with kids learning that skill.
It's becoming less and less about the physical side of things though and has been for decades. Technical ability should be the be all and end all with kids. The physical side will develop as they get bigger.
 

Coza

Well-Known Member
Coaches coaches coaches.

There was an amazing stat that ten years in advance of the great Spanish team they had saturated all levels of their game with trained coaches.

After Germany ripped up their system they flooded their game with qualified coaches and low and behold ten years later they were dominant.

England were slow to the party but in the past 5-10 years they have also stared throwing qualified coaches (unitised money) at the problem. They are reaping the benefits of that currently.

On a more manageable scale like Scotland would be. Take Iceland. A small country with no real pedigree in football. They have went down the overkill of coaches road too and and look how often they punch spectacularly above their weight.

This problem needs money and will to change. It won’t happen overnight also. I don’t see the actual desire or money to change in This country.
 

Teuchterblue

Well-Known Member
It won't get substantially better with a top tier set-up of 10 teams imo. For whatever reason a top tier of 18 or so teams produced a wonderful conveyor belt of talent. I suspect it has something to do with localism. Local Fife football clubs could spot and nurture local Fife kids better than a Glasgow club can.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
It's becoming less and less about the physical side of things though and has been for decades. Technical ability should be the be all and end all with kids. The physical side will develop as they get bigger.

Think it helps if kids have an aggressive mindset as such and a want to win their battles etc, does always apply in football.
 

GodStruth

Well-Known Member
I actually think we have decent youth coaching right up to the point of promoting that ethos into first teams

Just about all academy players are coached the correct way, until they try to get into most premiership or championship first teams, where managers seeking short term success (or more accurately, survival) recruit big lumps or athletes that can ping it up the channel or win high balls.

The structure of the professional game is the biggest problem imo. Bigger leagues remove pressure and allow young talent to flourish.

The wee teams would never vote for it though, even if there was a desire for it
 

BL11

Well-Known Member
Until referees are instructed to protect players, at all levels, then we won't move on.

Hatchet men are winning the battle because refs are as weak as piss.

There are great players at youth level, we need to make it desirable and as easy as possible to enjoy the game.

Telling wee Johnny to skin the full back who will then half him in two without so much of a talking to from the ref is happening up and down the country, at every level.
 

dapper dado

Well-Known Member
Think it helps if kids have an aggressive mindset as such and a want to win their battles etc, does always apply in football.
Totally agree regards the mindset. First to the ball, strong in the tackle etc but I think that's the mental side of things.

Physical side for me is about the biggest, fastest, strongest getting picked based on their physical attributes above anything else. Kids develop physically at different ages so the bigger, faster, stronger kids generally excel at a young age groups. They are promoted through the age groups but may never have the technical ability or mindset to make it to the top tier. The smaller kids will miss out but their physical development will come later but will never be able to catch up.
 

GodStruth

Well-Known Member
Until referees are instructed to protect players, at all levels, then we won't move on.

Hatchet men are winning the battle because refs are as weak as piss.

There are great players at youth level, we need to make it desirable and as easy as possible to enjoy the game.

Telling wee Johnny to skin the full back who will then half him in two without so much of a talking to from the ref is happening up and down the country, at every level.
A very good point - the refereeing standard is shocking and allows a level of physicality that is unacceptable anywhere else in world football
 

Copland85

Well-Known Member
did they not bring in a Dutch guy to do an overview of the game here in the early 2000s he done it and they never implemented any of they changes he put in his recommendations
For the SFA to rip anything up would be an admission that someone,somewhere within the organisation got it wrong.

This would never be allowed as there are far too many egos to be massaged. Why halt the gravy train?.
 

Elvis

Well-Known Member
An organisation as forward thinking and dynamic as to appoint Petrie and Mulranney will do nothing in terms of improving anything. There are organisms at the bottom of the Clyde that will move forward and evolve faster than the SFA.
 

Cambuslang Bear

Well-Known Member
did they not bring in a Dutch guy to do an overview of the game here in the early 2000s he done it and they never implemented any of they changes he put in his recommendations
I'm sure he chucked it after they refused to implement any of his ideas. Sums the mentality up in this tin pot country
 

geoallison

Well-Known Member
I actually think we have decent youth coaching right up to the point of promoting that ethos into first teams

Just about all academy players are coached the correct way, until they try to get into most premiership or championship first teams, where managers seeking short term success (or more accurately, survival) recruit big lumps or athletes that can ping it up the channel or win high balls.

The structure of the professional game is the biggest problem imo. Bigger leagues remove pressure and allow young talent to flourish.

The wee teams would never vote for it though, even if there was a desire for it
Spot on.
 

Subway Bear

Well-Known Member
My wide sweeping statement re this would be I reckon there is a generation of Roxborough desciples needs phased out.

The coaching I see, loads of it is kids being encouraged to touch, pass, move, heads up football.

The grass root base level learning of kids core skills is grand.

The issue re moving away from that seems to come from the ages of 16 + when the generation of Roxboroughball still seems to exist in so many

I do think there needs to be more Elite group for kids who show clear talent and are fast tracked - that's probably the key to a better national team.

In Rugby, which is a comparison I oft use as I am probably more educated in it than football at coaching level - it is pretty closed shop re national team in that you play for a private school you have a hell of a chance of national team stuff at Unders and it is an "Elite group" who are educated and given elite training by a higher level of coaches than some kids who just get enthusiastic parents - I do think that's a model needed for international level players.
This. What I will say is I see lots of great wee players playing 5/7/8 aside up until u13s I think it is. They then go onto 11 a side competitive football and the players and coaches in my opinion tend to revert back to get the biggest lads in and kick everything that moves. A lot of kids then lose interest and are pretty much lost to the game.
 

GR6Ger

Well-Known Member
Better referees that will no longer allow the hammer throwers in our game to flourish will help the players coming through.

The younger age groups need far more properly qualified coaches.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Just as an aside does anyone on here coach at any level?

I would be curios to know how it is accommodated and catered for by the SFA?

With the SRU every coach, as far as I am aware who coaches Rugby is registered under the SRU umbrella re PVG etc.

You are afforded access to an APP with coaching seminars from guys like Gregor Townsend, rugby rite courses etc advocated by the SRU - there is a load of content to use and reference so the ethos bleeds through at all levels.

As well as that the sessions to gain coaching levels are hosted by the SRU they are in areas and clubs helping and offering advice.

They have a core group of elite coaches as such who attend local clubs offer advice etc.

it's a pretty good system, would be curious to know if SFA are similar.
 
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stein and johnston

Well-Known Member
What are England doing right that we’re not.?
A country that’s about a 2/3 hour drive from the SFA headquarters seem to produce decent youth players.
Yes the population is bigger but surely their development philosophy would get us on the same path.?
 

Renfrew@UKGB&NI

Well-Known Member
Lot of good posts here and comes across more forward thinking than anything the sfa churns out. People may disagree with me here but i thought the best football we ever played was when we had the Dutch influence.
 

Cross Keys Rab

Well-Known Member
I honestly think they don't know where to start. The gaffer makes suggestions like the refs being less leniant to the hammer throwers to allow the players to play the game the way it was intended. Scoffed at and it gets disregarded. Much like the previous managers suggestions before him as well.

I don't think it's the youth side that needs to improve that badly, it's the senior game. We knock the football out of the ones that make it and ask them to kick lumps out of each other. We brought a youth player on this season. Ten minutes later he's getting stretchered off. What happens. Absolute diddly.

I don't watch that many youth games but I'd bet they're not all turning up trying to maime each other. The game needs changed from the top down, not the other way about.

A change like that would make it more appealing to kids it would make it a better spectacle for everybody and would probably get people back supporting their clubs. Or we just stick with the numptys we've got running the game and nothing ever changes. We need to force change somehow for the good of the game.
 

Thommo2006

Well-Known Member
Scotland is run by dinosaurs and a vast majority of scotland fans are morons who would rather see a juicy 50/50 than players with skill.

I'll be sat here in 20 years an old man and we will be discussing the same issues. The plan should have been ripped up after we failed to qualify for euro 2000
 

Dave Angell

Well-Known Member
In my lifetime, the SFA have been nothing more than an old boys club, all in it for themselves and their own self interests.

Even worse now that they are in complete thrall to the yahoos.

I’d be starting there first then work your way down through the infrastructure - League reconstruction, coaching, youth football etc.
 

MSF

Well-Known Member
I’ve said this for a while now.

Nothing will change unless they rip it up & start again. Sure they might qualify for a tournament or 2, its hard not to these days. But Scotland will still be the whipping boys.

Problem is when the folk running things don’t have a clue about football. They wouldn’t know who to consult or advise them.
 

steve1873

Well-Known Member
It's becoming less and less about the physical side of things though and has been for decades. Technical ability should be the be all and end all with kids. The physical side will develop as they get bigger.
Correct. The physicality comes at a later stage. Technique, technique, technique should be pretty much THE entire focus of coaching up to around under 15's level.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
Scotland is run by dinosaurs and a vast majority of scotland fans are morons who would rather see a juicy 50/50 than players with skill.

I'll be sat here in 20 years an old man and we will be discussing the same issues. The plan should have been ripped up after we failed to qualify for euro 2000
There's no reason why we can't have both.

We don't encourage kids to stay involved in football. Pro Youth has taken resources from smaller clubs who could otherwise offer kids the chance to develop. We've got fewer youngsters sticking with the game until their late teens and when they eventually get the chance of first team football somewhere, they're ill prepared for the pace of the game.

It doesnt help when we don't give youngsters the chance to play at our top teams because of the consequences, and therefore fear, of failure.

We need to get kids engaged with football. We need them going to games and we need them playing football. Increased participation means a bigger player pool to choose from. Revamp youth funding - we can't afford to close off youth football to all but a handful of kids because teams can no longer afford to run youth systems. It's no coincidence that when we've focused resources on pro youth and discouraged other local youth development that our football has gone downhill. Play braver. Remove the fear of failure by having an expanded top 2 divisions and open up the opportunity for kids to play more games.

We need fundamental change in our game from top to bottom.
 

omegaman

Well-Known Member
We’ve been talking about this for over thirty years.

After the ‘86 World Cup in Mexico I remember there was much soul searching during the post mortem of yet another first round failure where every man and his dog insisted we had to rip it up and start again with a European model.

It’s never going to happen.

We’re shite and seemingly unwilling or incapable of change.

(As an aside though, I barely care how bad the men’s international side is without adding the birds into the equation).
 
I've been coaching under 16s the last year. Loads of talented players and huge youth participation numbers are encouraging.....

.... but the youth coaches are all dads of players!
Yeah we've got SFA coaching badges, but if a kid quits or moves team then the Dad (coach) is gonna move on or quit too.

In ideal world, SFA or similar would have an employed coach at each boys club so teams don't fold as often as we see now when players Dads chuck it.
Pay this coach a token fee - maybe £100 a week (financed by boys who pay 25 or 30 a month subs anyway x 20 players so affordable)

All youth coaches teaching similar methods, and with frequent analysis we could see what works or not and same coaches can learn and apply what works next season and so on.
Rather than kids Dad give up coaching and boys team is back to square 1 with no continuity.
 

Dennistounbear45

Well-Known Member
What are England doing right that we’re not.?
A country that’s about a 2/3 hour drive from the SFA headquarters seem to produce decent youth players.
Yes the population is bigger but surely their development philosophy would get us on the same path.?
They have a population 10 times bigger and a very wealthy football association.

Plus alot of darkys. (Can i say that?)
 
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