Why Jack and Kamara works for us

Northampton_Loyalist

Northampton_Loyalist

Well-Known Member
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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if we want to play with high full backs they are both crucial - you saw St Johnstone had a couple of breaks where a better team would have punished that slackness -having both prevents that from happening too often. I’m also of the view that when you have 10 behind the ball sometimes more attacking bodies contesting the area doesn’t always help.

They’re not always attractive but I can appreciate what they bring to the table. Would be good to have someone who can play that role and also drive forward from the DM position on occasion. Not sure if the lad Zunga is that type.
 
Queens_11 said:
They were much better tonight than the weekend. Still like to see them play a wee bit quicker from the off. They often play through the centre backs when it can be done in 1 pass. Get teams moving around quicker.
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I agree with this too. Sometimes a bit more urgency would be welcomed but hopefully that will come. I think and hope we will see their value away from home in tight games as they can retain and recycle the ball and kill the game limiting what the opposition can do. They’re both pretty good at winning it back quickly too.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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Great post.

I thought both were excellent tonight.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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The other thing I've noticed is the part both of them play in winning the ball back after we lose it. Our forwards chase the ball down but Jack and Kamara are always just behind them waiting to stick a foot in or pick up the loose ball.
 
The Bin Man said:
The other thing I've noticed is the part both of them play in winning the ball back after we lose it. Our forwards chase the ball down but Jack and Kamara are always just behind them waiting to stick a foot in or pick up the loose ball.
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One or the other, for sure. The one of them that pushes on to that 'halfway in their half' position will always be looking to make a tackle. They are both very good at that.
 
dh1963 said:
I thought Kamara was class tonight.

Barisic provided the match winning moments, but over the 90 minutes Kamara was consistently the best player on the pitch.
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I thought it was a toss up between them, but gave my personal vote to Borna because his class won us the game with the goals.
 
I dont mind them playing together but at times they need to be quicker, seems like kamara slows the game down, thats ideal if its in europe not against teams like st johnstone
 
I've always liked both players style of play, they calm things down which is very important in our league. Okay, they lose the ball from time to time but they battle back and retain possession.
 
Kamara was class he brakes up play in the middle of the park stops opposition attacks and more often than not finds a attacking pass.
 
CoopBlue said:
So are we saying that we don't need to buy a midfield starter?? We have no need to strengthen this area? Really??

Come on.
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Kamara is to soft imo and I dont think asserts himself in middle of the park. Similar to Jack.

We need a strong central midfielder in there that allows other players to have some skill.

1 may get away with it but not both over course of season.
 
This is a recent trend people have jumped on, can't see the issues myself. Could they sometimes play it forward quicker? Yes.

It's hardly mculloch and edu in central midfield. Jack and Kamara are very good footballers
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Not quite sure that was the take away point I made, but hey...
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Fair point.

But I just think whilst it may "work", it can and should be improved upon. The fluidity, cohesion and tempo is hindred when we play both - particularly from Jack.

If we're - hopefully - bringing in a new midfielder it would generally be Jack who I would move out. Takes far too many touches and is slow to turn. This impacts players like Hagi who need the tempo to be higher and the ball played forward quicker.
 
Might be wrong but I think we have two players doing the job of one at the elite clubs. It's where we are and it's working for SG and us atm.
 
I think it suits us in Europe playing both but not in Scotland in majority of games it’s too lethargic and one paced, we need another midfielder in there someone that creates goes forward and chips in with goals, something different imo.
 
They are playing well but that may not last forever, both have been there when we’ve fallen away post Christmas the last 2 seasons. With this in mind a new Centre Mid is essential, he should be our number one centre mid and that area of the squad will improve as a result.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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I see what the OP is saying and agree largely with it, however I think of the 2, Jack could and should be upgraded if money wasn’t a concern, however if Kamara is sold for following a big money bid we can’t refuse then Jack could take up the Kamara position with an upgrade that can turn the ball over quicker from the middle and be more box to box.
 
TynesideTrueBlue said:
I think it suits us in Europe playing both but not in Scotland in majority of games it’s too lethargic and one paced, we need another midfielder in there someone that creates goes forward and chips in with goals, something different imo.
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Agreed.

Playing both, especially at Ibrox, is a no no for me. Simply not needed for 90% of our home games in particular.
 
wee_bear said:
They are playing well but that may not last forever, both have been there when we’ve fallen away post Christmas the last 2 seasons. With this in mind a new Centre Mid is essential, he should be our number one centre mid and that area of the squad will improve as a result.
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Agreed.

The midfielder who comes in has to be the "main man" and the dynamic energy of the midfield. Has to be a proper upgrade. Going for more of the same is pointless. It's then a case of fitting in players around him and having horses for courses.
 
Jack and Kamara are crucial to how we play.
If we didn't have them, Tav and Barisic could not have as much freedom.

The other thing that's become apparent is that Ryan Jack is the player that makes us tick. He keeps the rhythm of the team moving. When he went off tonight, and when he went off at the weekend, that rhythm was lost.
 
TN8 said:
Lovely stuff OP. Do you work for The Athletic?

It'll be wasted on here though. Just get the baw in the fuckin boax!
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I absolutely appreciate their roles and their adeptness in playing them, especially Kamara for me. I just wish they had another couple of strings to their bows, being an ability to hit the odd 40/50 yard diagonal instead of leaving that to our centre halfs, who imo are not Terry Butcher in that dept, and the odd shot from distance wouldn’t go amiss either. I feel they are adequate in their positions, but could be improved upon. A latter day Stevie G would fit the bill...the Zungu boy looks like he may have those qualities in his YouTube clips, no laughing at the back! Time will tell but I also think we need an upgrade in there which will serve to further strengthen our squad. I just don’t see those two screaming ‘winners’ at me. I’d love them to prove me wrong and restrict any new boy to the bench!
 
MK Bluenose said:
I absolutely appreciate their roles and their adeptness in playing them, especially Kamara for me. I just wish they had another couple of strings to their bows, being an ability to hit the odd 40/50 yard diagonal instead of leaving that to our centre halfs, who imo are not Terry Butcher in that dept, and the odd shot from distance wouldn’t go amiss either. I feel they are adequate in their positions, but could be improved upon. A latter day Stevie G would fit the bill...the Zungu boy looks like he may have those qualities in his YouTube clips, no laughing at the back! Time will tell but I also think we need an upgrade in there which will serve to further strengthen our squad. I just don’t see those two screaming ‘winners’ at me. I’d love them to prove me wrong and restrict any new boy to the bench!
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I think the difference is quality and confidence

Being able to hit that 30-40 tard pass splits the lines at the moment we are taking 2-4 passes to get from one side to the other.

The quicker ball would put us through more often.

When it's crowded the players don't have the accuracy or the confidence or quality to do that consistently

Davis does but struggles a little now.

Problem is these players are out of our price range what we have works well as a counter attacking unit but against the 10 men behind the ball you need to keep moving them quickly from side to side we are better.

One thing tonight we didn't see was the high press we normally do but I think that was more tactics than anything
 
Take away Barras goal and his assist think kamara had a great game and could have picked up man of the match. Agree jack played well too, really only play a bit off was Hagi but good think was didn’t hide still looked for the ball.
Good all round performance.
 
Totally agree @Northampton_Loyalist, Jack and Kamara are crucial to the way we play, as pointed out by many posters on this thread (and also in a thread from @MearnsUnionist earlier in the week) they allow Tavernier and Barisic the freedom to attack and provide cross balls, and provide rearguard protection to allow Kent, Aribo and Hagi to play such a high line. Have said on a number of threads, that I think Kamara will be crucial for us this season.
 
Great post OP.

People are saying they're playing it too slow. First of all... I think they're much more straight forward with their passing and movement than they were last season, so something's been said and done. I really don't know what people are moaning about. I don't think it's realistic, especially in our home games, to have some attacking minded hardman in our midfield whose only task is to ball up very quickly, no matter what. With low blocks of 10/11 of our opponents at Ibrox it would be like banging our heads to the wall.
 
dh1963 said:
I thought Kamara was class tonight.

Barisic provided the match winning moments, but over the 90 minutes Kamara was consistently the best player on the pitch.
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I thought he was really impressive on Sunday too mate and and quietly effective at Pittodrie as well.

He's had a superb start to the season.

Jack has done very well too.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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Bang on the money mate.
 
Agree with you’re point op - my criticism of them is that sometimes they go and sit on top of the centre half to get the ball when they could let the centre half take the pass and I’d like to see faster passing as well at times. Which is what I think gerrard is meaning with the extra touches comment

however, we are three games in and finding our legs to this season and they’ve been brilliant at getting the ball moving

see before ourfirst goal - we were toiling for ten mins or so then these two started to ‘keep ball’ and get on it and as a team we suddenly passed it better

no doubt they’re crucial
 
They were both a lot better at playing forward passes yesterday, they were offering next to no penetration in the first two games so hopefully the management team have sorted it.

If they both play like that every week then we will be fine but we badly need one more to come in, Davis is simply too negative
 
I good post, these two are consistent without getting many plaudits. Like others have said a bit more urgency at times is needed
 
yes, we effectively play with only 2 at the back so it is important that we have the 2 midfielders to cover the fact out full backs are always so far forward. We play with 3 forwards on the pitch which a lot of folk don't seem to realise.
 
A folk folk seem to think I am saying we can do no better than the pair. That is clearly not true and we could do better than every single player in our side, given the cash to upgrade. The point being made is people are seeing them do exactly what they are being asked to do and failing to understand it, assuming that they should be doing something different, which is not the case. Any new midfielder brought in for that position will do exactly the same job as them. Gains in speed of thought or range of passing could be made, but not be nearly as much as would be required to justify the shouts for replacements.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Make no mistake, it does.

If you watch both for any length of time during a game it actually becomes quite clear what their exact roles are, and more importantly, what those roles allow the rest of the side to do.

When we have the ball, one will sit on the halfway line at one of the fullback positions and the other will split our centre halves. This forces their striker and a midfielder to the side where our man is and pretty much every time, we end up with a free walk into their half, with both of our fullbacks already in very advanced positions (it works very well in a diagonal, meaning if jack is at LB, Tav will be the out-ball after 2-3 passes normally because their midfield will shuffle over to counter our man advantage on the left).

Having both midfielders playing from our own back line, with one advancing and one sitting in as cover for the defence allows both of our fullbacks to push on at will, as well as giving us a midfielder sat halfway in their half. If we lose the ball, we have cover, if Balogun wants a wander, we have cover and it gives absolutely every player in front of them far more scope and freedom that they would normally have. We do, at all times, only need to bring one of Tav and Barisic back to defend to have a full backline in place and that gives us a huge advantage when we move forwards. It is more apparent with Borna just now, but he plays 70 odd minutes of the game in their half and absolutely every single time the ball is on our left flank, he is in position to make a run past the last man. That only happens because of the positions that Jack and Kamara take up.

I get that it is easy to just call for more attack minded players and think that it equals a more attack minded team, but those 2 in our midfield, and more specifically, the roles they play, free up so much space for other players that we would lose FAR more than we would gain simply by playing one of them in a more traditional role with a more attacking partner.
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Sensible and well presented post.

The greeting on here about the midfield is borderline lunatic. Three league games, three wins, three clean sheets, seven goals. One of those matches at the sheep pen, probably the second most difficult away game after the piggery and two against two teams we have struggled to break down in the past at home.

Obviously if the right player came along at the right price we should sign him but you'd think that Kamara and Jack were the worst players on the pitch going by some of the comments on here.

Kamara has his daft moments where he fannies about but for 50k or whatever you can't expect a flawless midfielder. Jack sometimes plays it too simple but he is also more than capable of bringing the ball forward and pushing us on. This is without considering the rightful praise you have noted re their defensive responsibilities.
 
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