Winning domestically

Flutey55

Flutey55

Member
Last night against Braga was a joy to watch for many different reasons but the thing that stood out for me was the shape and discipline of the team. It's obvious the coaching staff have drilled that into the players and each one of them have executed it to perfection.

The question remains - Are the players not giving the correct game plan when playing against lesser teams domestically or are the players simply not carrying it out?

In my opinion we show too much respect to teams we should be putting under pressure from the first whistle. Each one of us knows that spfl opposition defenders simply panic when this happens. It's what got us our points on the board and teams feared not only our ability but our work rate as well.

Up the pressure in the hearts game and I've no doubt we will pick up the victory. Sit off, show too much respect and it will be a repeat of our last head to head.
 
I don't think we show our domestic opposition too much respect, but try to dominate them with possession of the ball, waiting for space to open up. It's slow, predictable and ineffective against teams that are trying not to be pumped, as opposed to winning the game. That's a leveller for a lesser player who can sink deeper and clear the ball into row z or head crosses away for fun. We force them to become more compact and it makes things much harder. We need braver individual contribution to show our superior talent. Kamberi vs St. Johnstone is a good example.
 
Slow and predictable are the key words here. There is enough talent in our team to keep the ball moving fast with incisive passing. We ripped the Sheep and Hivs apart with slick play like that.
 
Flutey55 said:
Last night against Braga was a joy to watch for many different reasons but the thing that stood out for me was the shape and discipline of the team. It's obvious the coaching staff have drilled that into the players and each one of them have executed it to perfection.

The question remains - Are the players not giving the correct game plan when playing against lesser teams domestically or are the players simply not carrying it out?

In my opinion we show too much respect to teams we should be putting under pressure from the first whistle. Each one of us knows that spfl opposition defenders simply panic when this happens. It's what got us our points on the board and teams feared not only our ability but our work rate as well.

Up the pressure in the hearts game and I've no doubt we will pick up the victory. Sit off, show too much respect and it will be a repeat of our last head to head.
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I think that the problem is they were still playing to the "game plan" and persisting with it when it's ineffective and that's down to management as much as the players. Teams have set up in a way to nullify our strengths.

What doesn't help is the slow tempo and lethargic passing that builds up into our attacking phase - this lets teams reset and go back into their shape. Our passing needs to be quicker and braver - we play simple safe passes too often, and it might end up helping us if we lose the ball trying to and letting the other team have a bit more possession and letting them come forward slightly.

I'm more confident about Saturday after last night's result, but there is really no excuse for getting papped out the cup to Hearts - they are shite.
 
trueblue77 said:
I don't think we show our domestic opposition too much respect, but try to dominate them with possession of the ball, waiting for space to open up. It's slow, predictable and ineffective against teams that are trying not to be pumped, as opposed to winning the game. That's a leveller for a lesser player who can sink deeper and clear the ball into row z or head crosses away for fun. We force them to become more compact and it makes things much harder. We need braver individual contribution to show our superior talent.
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I definitely agree with you in terms of braver individual contribution. Players have obviously found it difficult recently with the moans and groans when making a mistake.

When I mean showing a team too much respect in our league, I mean the amount of pressure we apply when they have possession. Intercepting a pass in their defence or midfield could quickly start an attack. The game at St johnstone was as passive as I've seen us under Gerrard.

I'm hoping we can play with 2 strikers as it's definitely improved our threat.
 
We don’t show respect.

They sit tight domestically making it harder to break down and to many times we’re overly predictable, whereas in Europe teams open up against us and it suits us for example Bragas high line last night
 
OohAhHuistra said:
We don’t show respect.

They sit tight domestically making it harder to break down and to many times we’re overly predictable, whereas in Europe teams open up against us and it suits us for example Bragas high line last night
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What's the difference between us and Celtic right now?

They have went with a front 2 and are steamrolling teams.

By playing 1 striker, 2 interchangeable 10's and a 3 in midfield who are tasked with dictating play, it's showing too much respect imo. Everything needs to be pinpoint when scoring a goal for us. Them on the other hand, are scoring rebounds and ricochets because they are willing to break shape and risk conceding for the sake of scoring.
 
It's easier to play against a team who don't sit in with 10 men behind the ball and actually fancy their chances of winning a game.
 
Sam Minella said:
I think that the problem is they were still playing to the "game plan" and persisting with it when it's ineffective and that's down to management as much as the players. Teams have set up in a way to nullify our strengths.

What doesn't help is the slow tempo and lethargic passing that builds up into our attacking phase - this lets teams reset and go back into their shape. Our passing needs to be quicker and braver - we play simple safe passes too often, and it might end up helping us if we lose the ball trying to and letting the other team have a bit more possession and letting them come forward slightly.

I'm more confident about Saturday after last night's result, but there is really no excuse for getting papped out the cup to Hearts - they are shite.
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You make a good point about our tempo dropping and passing becoming slower. I think this has been our biggest enemy since the break, and probably why our possession approach was actually working last year, despite its drawbacks.
 
Flutey55 said:
I definitely agree with you in terms of braver individual contribution. Players have obviously found it difficult recently with the moans and groans when making a mistake.

When I mean showing a team too much respect in our league, I mean the amount of pressure we apply when they have possession. Intercepting a pass in their defence or midfield could quickly start an attack. The game at St johnstone was as passive as I've seen us under Gerrard.

I'm hoping we can play with 2 strikers as it's definitely improved our threat.
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You have a point regarding bravery on the ball with the crowd. It certainly isn't helpful. I can't see it getting better any time soon on that front unfortunately. As for our play off the ball, again you're correct. Something else that has went missing from our game domestically.
 
The difference isn't about respect, the real difference between us in Europe and domestically is that domestically teams set up with one intention - Don't get beat - they have very little inclination to attack us, they pack 9 or 10 players behind the ball and we struggle to break them down....we need to learn how to win ugly domestically!
 
Scott said:
The difference isn't about respect, the real difference between us in Europe and domestically is that domestically teams set up with one intention - Don't get beat - they have very little inclination to attack us, they pack 9 or 10 players behind the ball and we struggle to break them down....we need to learn how to win ugly domestically!
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True, but we also invite this situation at times with our approach. Don't like to mention them, but there was a passage of play recently where Eduard, I think, opened the sheep up with a backheel that led to their late winner. We need the technically gifted players in our team to take it upon themselves to find the approach that works in the SPFL. Basic passing game can only work when the tempo is very fast. Agree with you on winning ugly too.
 
4-3-3 doesn’t work against the ‘diddy’ teams any longer. They sit in and play long for physical challenges. They now funnel us out wide to have us play hit and hope crosses into a box where we are woefully outnumbered. We have taken to having loads of possession in defence back and forward with the midfield who come back too deep and remove themselves as forward options for passes. In delaying this we allow teams time to organise their shape. We leave our central striker isolated and remarkably sit off defenders who if pressed have no football to play out. The lack of high press means we don’t have enough players high up the field to exploit mistakes. Teams at home know exactly what to expect from us and how to play us. Only when we made changes to our formation did things start to work for us. Alas the following game it was adjudged that we wouldn’t start with the changes of shape and personnel we made ( and worked) in the previous domestic game. I hope SG learns from his mistakes this time, and doesn’t fall back on 4-3-3 in belief of the theory that one size fits all. Surely there has been adequate demonstration since the break that this is not the case.
 
trueblue77 said:
True, but we also invite this situation at times with our approach. Don't like to mention them, but there was a passage of play recently where Eduard, I think, opened the sheep up with a backheel that led to their late winner. We need the technically gifted players in our team to take it upon themselves to find the approach that works in the SPFL. Basic passing game can only work when the tempo is very fast. Agree with you on winning ugly too.
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I agree, we have plenty of technically gifted players now so there is no reason we can't, we are very rigid in our position and approach and we should be trying to mix it up a bit more by pushing two through the middle, more shots from range etc. Our predictability is ultimately our downfall domestically!
 
I have to admit to being slightly concerned at Kent admitting the pressure of the domestic league is an issue for the team.

European football just seems to suit us more, generally the games are more open and we can play.
 
Look at the last 10 minutes, we played with the defensive low block with Ojo up top and Braga barely got a sniff despite their talented players.

We are up against that for 90 minutes 34 times a season.
 
Flutey55 said:
I definitely agree with you in terms of braver individual contribution. Players have obviously found it difficult recently with the moans and groans when making a mistake.

When I mean showing a team too much respect in our league, I mean the amount of pressure we apply when they have possession. Intercepting a pass in their defence or midfield could quickly start an attack. The game at St johnstone was as passive as I've seen us under Gerrard.

I'm hoping we can play with 2 strikers as it's definitely improved our threat.
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These teams dont play passes in their defence though. Everything is a long ball to a big striker and play off of that. You then get the additional problem of if we do win a high ball then there is so many defenders deep that there is still a resistance to play quick passes in fear of losing the chance.

Contrast to last night and the positions we were winning the ball and how high a line there was for us to spring. That virtually never happens in scotland.

We also have barely had our two most creative players (in terms of assists) on the park together since new year, Morelos form has fell through the floor (he is missing chances he was scoring for fun earlier in the season, not like he isnt getting any) and Defoe, our top league scorer has been out injured

Plus we have had some awful individual errors that have cost us goals and the poor refereeing calls as well.

We will get there. The summer will see more improving of the squad and more experience again of the ultra defensive low block
 
Anyone who has ever played football knows how hard it is to play against 10 men sitting behind the ball. Barca couldn't get a shot at goal against Napoli the other night and they relied on a last minute winner against Ibiza last month as well due to these tactics.

It's not just as easy as turning up sometimes.

I think when teams park the bus against us we need more of a target man and to go more direct to mix things up though.
 
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