Disabled Section, What’s The Answer

[2fernando]

Behind the goal down the front won’t work. Would be the exact same issue with wind and rain and they’d end up constantly scudded with the ball. Non starter.

It has to be elevated platform in the main stand at the rear of the west enclosure and I think the board know this. It’ll be money that’s holding it up as per usual.

The section in the broomloan is the back few rows of the front section, so definitely not the same issues.

A poster further down has said he’s been in that section before and didn’t like it, which is a surprise as I’ve sat in the back of BF before and thought they were really good seats

 

[YorkshireBlue]

Small adjustments to the away section to make it fully accessible.

Move away fans to CD7 and surround them with perspex screens.

 

[forlanssister]

It takes 5 seats to make 1x disabled bay, i believe there’s 114 disabled season ticket holders that would be a loss of 570 seats then you have to add the access & also extra amenities, it all comes down to cost

When they stuck spaces in the North Stand at Hampden it was at the expense of 12 seats per space, in Ibrox it'll be closer to that than 5.

While there are 114 spaces they aren't all season ticket seats and cannot be so.

To meet the UEFA criteria there has to be 226 spaces, spaced throughout the stadium not all at pitchside open to the elements with a restricted view .

 

[nybear]

This is why the rear of the west enclosure is the area the revamp has to happen. Easy access, no lifts required, raised covered viewing platform, sorted

The only thing stopping it is money

what about wheel chair users in the east enclosure, where would you put the ramps from ground up to the rear of the enclosure and where would you put the four rows of season ticket holders that would need to be removed maybe five rows.

enclosed stadium would work, just need money for the roof

 

[Bluebeard]

what about wheel chair users in the east enclosure, where would you put the ramps from ground up to the rear of the enclosure and where would you put the four rows of season ticket holders that would need to be removed maybe five rows.

enclosed stadium would work, just need money for the roof

You think we are putting a retractable roof on Ibrox ffs? The solution needs to be realistic

The 114 users could be accommodated on the raised platform behind the west enclosure no need to touch the east. 500 seats would need to be removed from the back of the west, and those 500 season tickets holders offered seats elsewhere.

 

[forlanssister]

lets hope they never have to evacuate the stand if the lift is the only exit point for wheel chair users

from tynecastle

Lifts

Lifts cannot be used in an emergency. Any lift used for the evacuation of people who are disabled must be either a ‘firefighting lift’ or an ‘evacuation lift’ and will be clearly marked as one.

Never heard of safe spaces ? Believe it or not that's been in operation since Argyle House has been there.

 

[DarthVader]

I appreciate a lot of what you’re saying but I just don’t see an obvious solution to the problem.

Do we add another 200 disabled places which then stops 1000 people attending the games?

What happens if we put in more disabled places and they sell out and the waiting list becomes years and years long again? Do we put more disabled places in?

Morally, increasing the disabled capacity to a more appropriate ratio and vastly improving facilities is the right thing to do.

It will impact overall capability and it will not make money.

But we can't keep ignoring this issue.

As long as we continue to prioritise revenue, disabled fans will suffer.

 

[forlanssister]

what about wheel chair users in the east enclosure, where would you put the ramps from ground up to the rear of the enclosure and where would you put the four rows of season ticket holders that would need to be removed maybe five rows.

enclosed stadium would work, just need money for the roof

To get to the front of the Enclosures we already have to go down a ramp, it's just a case of repositioning the spaces further back.

 

[Gibraltar Loyal]

It’s completely different. The Main Stand is where the team buses come in and where our Car Parking is and it’s our focal point
The SJ /BROOMLOAN corner allows Away fans to be isolated and separated from ours

As i say high risk games done as bubble games and there is no issues.

 

[GazzaLegend]

I appreciate a lot of what you’re saying but I just don’t see an obvious solution to the problem.

Do we add another 200 disabled places which then stops 1000 people attending the games?

What happens if we put in more disabled places and they sell out and the waiting list becomes years and years long again? Do we put more disabled places in?

To be honest mate the simple answer to both your questions is yes. If that’s what it takes. This will cost money and reduce capacity. Im not suggesting we significantly increase the disabled section capacity but as a minimum, we treat the current season ticket holders with the respect they deserve and provide comfortable conditions that meet their needs on a match day.

There is an optimal solution that will minimise the cost impact, the answer doesn’t and shouldn’t come from fans on this forum, and again, I don’t believe for a minute they don’t already know what the solution is and how much.
This has to be viewed in the same context as paying footballers £10’s of thousands a week, sports science departments, 5 star player facilities etc….. it’s the cost of being a socially and ethically responsible company and should be seen as a standard operational cost.

 

[Chester Loyal]

Morally, increasing the disabled capacity to a more appropriate ratio and vastly improving facilities is the right thing to do.

It will impact overall capability and it will not make money.

But we can't keep ignoring this issue.

As long as we continue to prioritise revenue, disabled fans will suffer.

What ratio would be morally right? I’m not having a go here btw, I’m genuinely asking?

It won’t just impact the capacity and lose the club income, it stops 5 people from getting tickets for every 1 disabled space we add.

 

[forlanssister]

Ah, ok.

I was thinking installing safe standing in the Copland and Broomloan fronts could possibly have increased the capacity enough to be able to remove 500 seats or so from one of the enclosures and turn it into a proper disabled section.

Safe standing would actually slightly reduce the capacity if you put it on the existing terrace, to get a greater capacity with safe standing you'd need a proper 2 step terracing not the existing 1 step.

 

[High Society]

As i say high risk games done as bubble games and there is no issues.

You’re wrong

 

[Papasmurf]

This is why the rear of the west enclosure is the area the revamp has to happen. Easy access, no lifts required, raised covered viewing platform, sorted

The only thing stopping it is money

Wrong. Imo. The only thing stopping it is the will.

 

[forlanssister]

cant use lifts if there is a fire

Of course but the argument you're putting forward would effectively ban wheelchair users from anything other than the ground floor everywhere.

There were 5 wheelchairs in the Argyle House hospitality on Thursday.

I've personally done it several times and intend moving there if the Blue Sky Lounge plans come to fruition.

 

[james taylor]

A raised platform directly in front of the main stand (below gantry, sitting at back of enclosures) should give a few hundred positions for wheelchairs/seats with lift access at sides would be a cheaper option without lowering capacity

 

[Chester Loyal]

Safe standing would actually slightly reduce the capacity if you put it on the existing terrace, to get a greater capacity with safe standing you'd need a proper 2 step terracing not the existing 1 step.

Would changing from a 1 step to 2 step terracing not be quite an easy thing to do?

To be honest mate the simple answer to both your questions is yes. If that’s what it takes. This will cost money and reduce capacity. Im not suggesting we significantly increase the dIsabel’s section capacity but as a minimum, we treat the current season ticket holders with the respect they deserve and provide comfortable conditions that meet their needs on a match day.

There is an optimal solution that will minimise the cost impact, the answer doesn’t and shouldn’t come from fans on this forum, and again, I don’t believe for a minute they don’t already know what the solution is and how much.
This has to be viewed in the same context as paying footballers £10’s of thousands a week, sports science departments, 5 star player facilities etc….. it’s the cost of being a socially and ethically responsible company and should be seen as a standard operational cost.

I agree that the club should find a better space for the current disabled section.

I know this might come across as quite crass but I’m not sure I agree with increasing the capacity of the disabled section.

 

[forlanssister]

Would changing from a 1 step to 2 step terracing not be quite an easy thing to do?



I agree that the club should find a better space for the current disabled section.

I know this might come across as quite crass but I’m not sure I agree with increasing the capacity of the disabled section.

To do it correctly would require a new terrace.

Why what have you got against disabled people that you think we shouldn't be accommodated at Ibrox like everyone else?

And where would you like Rangers to play their European fixtures when they're unable to fulfill them at Ibrox because it doesn't meet UEFA requirements?

 

[Mount_Bear]

Have the club actually done anything about it? Have they consulted with disabled fans, or any disability representation groups? I can't believe finances would/should come into it - an extra £5 tacked onto 45k season tickets would be £225k, surely that would provide appropriate facilities?

 

[Chester Loyal]

To do it correctly would require a new terrace.

Why what have you got against disabled people that you think we shouldn't be accommodated at Ibrox like everyone else?

And where would you like Rangers to play their European fixtures when they're unable to fulfill them at Ibrox because it doesn't meet UEFA requirements?

Yeah but is a new terrace not just relaying concrete?

I don’t have anything against disabled people fs. Everyone else at Ibrox isn’t accommodated though. There is a waiting list for season tickets and people are locked out every week when we sell out.

Did we not just play a European match on Thursday? When are we going to be unable to meet the requirements?

 

[WATP87]

Remove all disabled facilities would mean more space for other punters and more money.

That's Robbo's aim I bet!

 

[Bluebeard]

Wrong. Imo. The only thing stopping it is the will.

Either way it’s wrong

 

[DarthVader]

What ratio would be morally right? I’m not having a go here btw, I’m genuinely asking?

It won’t just impact the capacity and lose the club income, it stops 5 people from getting tickets for every 1 disabled space we add.

I think @forlanssister is the poster I mentioned earlier in the thread. She says in one post that we have 114 but need to essentially double this as a min.

If that means we lose 300-500 seats, so be it.

The overall capacity of Ibrox will become a problem and then its down to the economics of how best to increase capacity.

But we can't continue to treat disabled supporters as a burden. They are valued fans like everyone else, and should be treated with respect and consideration.

 

[GazzaLegend]

Would changing from a 1 step to 2 step terracing not be quite an easy thing to do?



I agree that the club should find a better space for the current disabled section.

I know this might come across as quite crass but I’m not sure I agree with increasing the capacity of the disabled section.

I know your not against improving conditions for disabled fans mate and your not coming across as crass to me. it’s clear from your posts that you are simply trying to find a workable solution to a difficult problem.
I agree with you, if we could increase capacity it would be great but there is a cost limit unfortunately and personally I would be satisfied if we make improvements for the current number at the very least. We both agree that the current situation is not acceptable

 

[forlanssister]

Yeah but is a new terrace not just relaying concrete?

I don’t have anything against disabled people fs. Everyone else at Ibrox isn’t accommodated though. There is a waiting list for season tickets and people are locked out every week when we sell out.

Did we not just play a European match on Thursday? When are we going to be unable to meet the requirements?

No it really isn't as simply as just relaying concrete.

You really haven't got much of a clue about this issue at all have you? In fact your ignorance on the subject is quite breathtaking.

The only area at Ibrox with a season ticket waiting list is the wheelchair section that is a fact that you can check with the ticket office, people aren't locked out every week even when we sell out there are still thousands of empty seats in the stadium.

The waiting list for a wheelchair space is over a decade long and has as far as I'm aware never been less than a decade long.

The reason our Chairman, Vice Chairman and Managing Director all raised and conceded the issue at the AGM is because they know what's coming and they've kicked the can down the road as far as they possibly can.

This is what's coming

Access for All guide

Setting out minimum requirements at football stadiums based on European standards

www.cafefootball.eu

Compare what's going to be required for a UEFA licence and where Ibrox stands in relation today, now once again where would you like us to play our European games Parkhead because they're far closer to the requirements than we are and once they're fully compliant we'll know boy we'll know?

 

[DarthVader]

No it really isn't as simply as just relaying concrete.

You really haven't got much of a clue about this issue at all have you? In fact your ignorance on the subject is quite breathtaking.

The only area at Ibrox with a season ticket waiting list is the wheelchair section that is a fact that you can check with the ticket office, people aren't locked out every week even when we sell out there are still thousands of empty seats in the stadium.

The waiting list for a wheelchair space is over a decade long and has as far as I'm aware never been less than a decade long.

The reason our Chairman, Vice Chairman and Managing Director all raised and conceded the issue at the AGM is because they know what's coming and they've kicked the can down the road as far as they possibly can.

This is what's coming

Access for All guide

Setting out minimum requirements at football stadiums based on European standards

www.cafefootball.eu

Compare what's going to be required for a UEFA licence and where Ibrox stands in relation today, now once again where would you like us to play our European games Parkhead because they're far closer to the requirements than we are and once they're fully compliant we'll know boy we'll know?

Brilliant post. I really sympathise with our wheelchair users - you deserve better.

But the club shouldn't be doing this purely because of regulations and UEFA requirements.

They should be doing it because it's the right thing to do.

 

[GazzaLegend]

No it really isn't as simply as just relaying concrete.

You really haven't got much of a clue about this issue at all have you? In fact your ignorance on the subject is quite breathtaking.

The only area at Ibrox with a season ticket waiting list is the wheelchair section that is a fact that you can check with the ticket office, people aren't locked out every week even when we sell out there are still thousands of empty seats in the stadium.

The waiting list for a wheelchair space is over a decade long and has as far as I'm aware never been less than a decade long.

The reason our Chairman, Vice Chairman and Managing Director all raised and conceded the issue at the AGM is because they know what's coming and they've kicked the can down the road as far as they possibly can.

This is what's coming

Access for All guide

Setting out minimum requirements at football stadiums based on European standards

www.cafefootball.eu

Compare what's going to be required for a UEFA licence and where Ibrox stands in relation today, now once again where would you like us to play our European games Parkhead because they're far closer to the requirements than we are and once they're fully compliant we'll know boy we'll know?

Reading that and your points on waiting lists was an education for me. Thanks for posting.

 

[forlanssister]

I think @forlanssister is the poster I mentioned earlier in the thread. She says in one post that we have 114 but need to essentially double this as a min.

If that means we lose 300-500 seats, so be it.

The overall capacity of Ibrox will become a problem and then its down to the economics of how best to increase capacity.

But we can't continue to treat disabled supporters as a burden. They are valued fans like everyone else, and should be treated with respect and consideration.

He !!

My guess would be between 1500-2000 reduction in capacity would result if it's just a case of providing adequate facilities without doing other stuff like lowering the pitch. The existing 65 spaces in the West Enclosure would be reduced to half that as they no longer fit the criteria.

That's the reason it's never been done before not just because of the initial capital cost but the ongoing reduction in ticket sales.

If people are looking for someone to blame for this situation then they shouldn't blame the current board as this is not of their making and given my dealings with them I believe they WILL address it, any blame lays soley at the door of David Murray no one else.

 

[Babaganoosh]

I took my grandad to 1 match in this section a few years ago. It's horrendous.

The car park and surrounding roads are not adequately equipped for wheelchairs either. The facilities are embarrassing for a club of our size

 

[DarthVader]

He !!
.

Sorry mate!

I agree with your point re Murray. The 3 big developments (Club Deck, seated enclosures & corners) during his tenure should have seen us bring disabled facilities into the 21st century.

 

[Chester Loyal]

No it really isn't as simply as just relaying concrete.

You really haven't got much of a clue about this issue at all have you? In fact your ignorance on the subject is quite breathtaking.

The only area at Ibrox with a season ticket waiting list is the wheelchair section that is a fact that you can check with the ticket office, people aren't locked out every week even when we sell out there are still thousands of empty seats in the stadium.

The waiting list for a wheelchair space is over a decade long and has as far as I'm aware never been less than a decade long.

The reason our Chairman, Vice Chairman and Managing Director all raised and conceded the issue at the AGM is because they know what's coming and they've kicked the can down the road as far as they possibly can.

This is what's coming

Access for All guide

Setting out minimum requirements at football stadiums based on European standards

www.cafefootball.eu

Compare what's going to be required for a UEFA licence and where Ibrox stands in relation today, now once again where would you like us to play our European games Parkhead because they're far closer to the requirements than we are and once they're fully compliant we'll know boy we'll know?

There’s a season ticket waiting list on the website. Is there also not a waiting list for bar72? How can there be thousands of empty seats if we’ve sold out a game? And how does this mean people aren’t locked out of these games?

How many people are on the wheelchair space waiting list?

Obviously if it’s a Uefa requirement then it should get done.

 

[DarthVader]

There’s a season ticket waiting list on the website. Is there also not a waiting list for bar72? How can there be thousands of empty seats if we’ve sold out a game? And how does this mean people aren’t locked out of these games?

How many people are on the wheelchair space waiting list?

Obviously if it’s a Uefa requirement then it should get done.

It shouldn't take UEFA for the club to look after the fans.

The Bar72 analogy is a poor one. Anyone on that waiting list can pick up a regular ticket. Wheelchair fans cannot.

And if you're willing to take a single ticket, you could probably get a ST at the start of most seasons. Again, based on earlier posts from @forlanssister, wheelchair fans cannot.

 

[forlanssister]

Sorry mate!

I agree with your point re Murray. The 3 big developments (Club Deck, seated enclosures & corners) during his tenure should have seen us bring disabled facilities into the 21st century.

Exactly! Add to that the extra seating capacity added when there were additional rows put in at the front of the stand and Bar72.

The 7 excellent spaces in the Govan West Corner would have been even better if they had been installed when it was built rather than retrofitted.

The 36 spaces in the East Enclosure were believe it or not were paid for by the council for the Commonwealth Games, intriguingly they also put a platform for wheelchairs in the Govan East Corner but sadly removed it before the start of the football season.

 

[bobba]

This is what's coming

Access for All guide

Setting out minimum requirements at football stadiums based on European standards

www.cafefootball.eu

Compare what's going to be required for a UEFA licence and where Ibrox stands in relation today, now once again where would you like us to play our European games Parkhead because they're far closer to the requirements than we are and once they're fully compliant we'll know boy we'll know?

There is no way that uefa will require the level of provision that is currently set out as “recommended” in that document. There are too many variables for them to legislate such an offering.

 

[forlanssister]

There’s a season ticket waiting list on the website. Is there also not a waiting list for bar72? How can there be thousands of empty seats if we’ve sold out a game? And how does this mean people aren’t locked out of these games?

How many people are on the wheelchair space waiting list?

Obviously if it’s a Uefa requirement then it should get done.

There isn't a real waiting list, we sold less season tickets this season than last. We just REDUCED the capacity of Bar 72 by 60, why would they do that if there was a waiting list? People waiting on a transfer to a specific section doesn't constitute a season ticket waiting list.

IIRC the waiting list for a wheelchair space contains approximately 80 names while there are circa 90 wheelchair season tickets holders.

It really shouldn't take UEFA forcing their hand to treat people with common courtesy and decency it should be a matter of course. The guidelines were first published over 10 years ago, clubs all over Europe have been implementing them, we've basically ignored them till now.

 

[forlanssister]

There is no way that uefa will require the level of provision that is currently set out as “recommended” in that document. There are too many variables for them to legislate such an offering.

They will and they are, it's happening all over Europe. Most grounds in Europe even Eastern Europe are light years ahead of us.

The SFA didn't reduce the capacity of Hampden North Stand by almost 200 for a laugh and a giggle they did it because UEFA told if they didn't they wouldn't be hosting the Euro's.

 

[bobba]

The SFA didn't reduce the capacity of Hampden North Stand by almost 200 for a laugh and a giggle they did it because UEFA told if they didn't they wouldn't be hosting the Euro's.

There’s a big difference between between the two examples

 

[forlanssister]

There’s a big difference between between the two examples

So far UEFA are using the nudge approach many of those "guidelines" are already requirements for a European licence, the pandemic may well have slowed down the rate of implementation but it's just delaying the inevitable. The Board know that to be the case hence their statements at the AGM and the commission of works being progressed.

 

[DarthVader]

Edited, he's not worth the ban.

 

[forlanssister]

Edited, he's not worth the ban.

A point that those like him and his ilk and anyone else to be fair should ponder is that one day they may need to avail themselves of such facilities.

 

[forlanssister]

There’s a big difference between between the two examples

That 200 seats made way for 14 yes fourteen wheelchair and carer seats that met the UEFA requirements. We have to find roughly 150 additional spaces. It doesn't take Stephen Hawking to work out the equation

 

[AndythephotoDr]

As a wheelchair using bear I’ve said in here a few times our club is a joke when it comes to facilities and what their actual obligations are. I think their idea of reasonable adjustment is flawed

If challenged I think they may come unstuck as a court may deem removing some rows of seats would be “reasonable” to accommodate accessible seating.

I personally hate the notion of a disabled section as I think there should be multiple areas around the stadium where wheelchair uses can be accommodated but also feel part of the crowd, sit with pals or family.

I go to Scotland international matches in rugby and football and Murrayfield and Hampden are much better catered for.

The reality is it should be as easy for a disabled person to get a ticket and access the ground as it is for an able bodied person

 

[Rumping Roger]

This needs sorting out as a priority, pronto.

 

[Humbug]

To get to the front of the Enclosures we already have to go down a ramp, it's just a case of repositioning the spaces further back.

You are obviously one of the best people to consult regarding this issue, would you say that repositioning the spaces to the back of the enclosures is the best option available?
There seems to be a bit of a scattergun approach from some posters, I am genuinely interested in how this situation can work out for the best for the fans who have mobility issues taking into account all H/S regulations etc.

 

[nybear]

To get to the front of the Enclosures we already have to go down a ramp, it's just a case of repositioning the spaces further back.

I know, but that ramp is nothing like what would be needed to get to the top of the stairs

Never heard of safe spaces ? Believe it or not that's been in operation since Argyle House has been there.

which means it was part of the planning at the time

Of course but the argument you're putting forward would effectively ban wheelchair users from anything other than the ground floor everywhere.

There were 5 wheelchairs in the Argyle House hospitality on Thursday.

I've personally done it several times and intend moving there if the Blue Sky Lounge plans come to fruition.

lets just use argyle house as a start point

how many chairs can use the lift at one time?how many lifts would be needed for 114 wheel chair users plus helper ?
the number of spaces required to watch the game is half that of the stands, remembering that the stands needs the same space in front for others to pass, would mean removing five hundred seats for 114 wheelchair spaces.

i would like to see us go from street level too looking down on the pitch, i would love a stadium with that has a roof that closes in bad weather with a bowl shape.

its all about money the club does not have, they could try fitting flat style escalators where the stairs are in the enclosures which would act as a ramp in the event of fire or anything else, that wouldnt require removing any seats

 

[BlueFire83]

Tis a joy to sit soaking wet and freezing in a minibus for 5 hours after a game you should try it sometime.

I've twice caught pneumonia as a result of that leavingbme with scarring on the lungs and a weekend immune system but hey ho I should be grateful eh?

My point was they show up week in, week out come rain or shine just to support their team. That's passion!

 

[BlueFire83]

Tis a joy to sit soaking wet and freezing in a minibus for 5 hours after a game you should try it sometime.

I've twice caught pneumonia as a result of that leavingbme with scarring on the lungs and a weekend immune system but hey ho I should be grateful eh?

FYI I've sat soaking wet for 5 hours numerous times, luckily I've never got ill.

 

[Bluebeard]

Of course but the argument you're putting forward would effectively ban wheelchair users from anything other than the ground floor everywhere.

There were 5 wheelchairs in the Argyle House hospitality on Thursday.

I've personally done it several times and intend moving there if the Blue Sky Lounge plans come to fruition.

Perhaps there’s something to be said for this. Should handicapped be placed in the worst seats in the house getting soaked and blown about, ball scudded off their heads etc? I say no.

Why not have a hospitality type suite for them all? I know if the same thing happened to me and I was a wheelchair user it would be hospitality all the way. It’s more expensive of course, but if individuals can’t afford it then charity can pay the difference.

There’s just no reason why the status quo remains in 2022

 

[Valley Bluenose]

So far UEFA are using the nudge approach many of those "guidelines" are already requirements for a European licence, the pandemic may well have slowed down the rate of implementation but it's just delaying the inevitable. The Board know that to be the case hence their statements at the AGM and the commission of works being progressed.

They've commissioned the work? Anything more specific mate? Have they commissioned a 'feasibility study' or have they actually commissioned a contractor to carry out an agreed scope of work? Was there not some additional work going on at the back of the Govan for disabled seats as part of the ongoing work up there? I know you are one of the 'leaders' on this engaging with the Club so I'm sure you have a better handle on it than virtually all of us.

 

[forlanssister]

You are obviously one of the best people to consult regarding this issue, would you say that repositioning the spaces to the back of the enclosures is the best option available?
There seems to be a bit of a scattergun approach from some posters, I am genuinely interested in how this situation can work out for the best for the fans who have mobility issues taking into account all H/S regulations etc.

They don't have to be right at the back just further back than they are just now, that would give an elevated unrestricted view and shelter from the worst of the elements. Believe it or an elevation of as little as 12 - 18" makes a massive difference.