If Souness had rejected us in 1986...

Bear84

Bear84

Well-Known Member
2 questions really, who would it have been and how different would the outcome have been?

Was there an alternative candidate ever discussed or rumoured or was it always going to be Souness?

If it hadn't been Souness then presumably the extra investment was still available and there would still have been an upturn in quality recruits? Or did Souness come in and drive the extra investment?

Maybe Murray's later involvement would have been less likely but primarily I'm wondering about how different things would have been in 1986.

Just a bit too young to have known all the detail at the time so interested to know what else may have transpired.
 
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
 
Marstonbear said:
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
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Would Ferguson or McLean have had the pull to attract the big names at that time?
 
I just remember coming home from school and seeing it on the news and standing there stunned with my old man going "It's amazing, isn't it?". Souness in the now iconic shot of him in full kit beside the "Welcome to Ibrox" sign. It just came completely out of nowhere and was the biggest event in my life since Star Wars came out.
 
Bear84 said:
Would Ferguson or McLean have had the pull to attract the big names at that time?
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English clubs were banned from Europe, coming to Rangers gave them the platform to play in European competition... I do think Souness did have that pull more than Ferguson and McLean at that time though.
 
Marstonbear said:
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
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Totally agree

That appointment come totally out the blue and was sensational

I mind going to a Glasgow cup game on a Friday night against Them soon after and the place was rammed full ,believe it or not, not all old firm games sold out during those times pre souness.
Fantastic times and the man is a legend who turned the big ship around to quote a phrase from those times.
 
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If you look along the same vein as Souness at retiring players looking for their 1st gig in management then someone 'like' Kevin Keegan might've been in with a shout. Maybe not Keegan exactly since he was a few years away from taking the Newcastle job but someone similarly experienced and ambitious.
 
It was an amazing appointment and completely out of the blue. We were a team in transition, and Jock Wallace was blooding a number of younger players who would be mainstays in Souness’s team in the early years (Munro, Fleck, Durrant, Derek Ferguson, Davie McPherson, Ted McMinn).

Asides from Cooper, the more experienced heads weren’t performing. Souness came in and brought the experience needed to win things: himself, Woods, Butcher, Jimmy Nicol and Graham Roberts came in.

Put all of that together, add it to McCoist’s goals and you have a potent mix.
 
Weren't we 5th in the league and out in the first round in Europe prior to Souness ?
Makes me think that they saw the potential in Souness to turn things around and not the prospect of a competing in a competion where we were known to get dumped out of early doors
 
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I thing David Holmes seized the moment getting Souness and what a masterstroke it was
Rangers fans went from the doldrums to puffing out our chests overnight and as always in Scottish football a strong Rangers benefits the entire game , English teams being banned from Europe was also to our benefit as Ibrox became the place to be for top English players
A week didn't go by without us being linked to a top player or thats how it seemed
 
Alex Venters said:
Souness, the individual, was absolutely pivotal to our resurgence.
I doubt very much we would signed Butcher, Woods,Wilkins,Steven,Stevens,Gough or Hateley without The Magnificent Bastard.
Scary to think about the question if I'm being honest.
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Were English clubs still banned from European football hence the cream of English talent heading north.
 
I think we might have gone for Alex MacDonald.

We'd missed the boat on Alex Ferguson by 1986 and we wouldn't have went back in for Jim McLean. It's an interesting question. I guess only John Paton and David Holmes will know what Plan B would have been.
 
Bluefin221 said:
I think we might have gone for Alex MacDonald.

We'd missed the boat on Alex Ferguson by 1986 and we wouldn't have went back in for Jim McLean. It's an interesting question. I guess only John Paton and David Holmes will know what Plan B would have been.
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That's who I was expecting to take over from Jock Wallace whenever he left.

Might have been Craig Levein and Billy Thompson instead of Terry Butcher and Chris Woods!
 
Boldvale said:
Souness wasn't the draw the English sides were banned from Europe.
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Nonsense, the English players could've gone anywhere in Europe, but were happy to sign for the iconic Sounnes, a magnificent bastard and a winner.

Gerrard had a similar effect, albeit at a different level. We would not have signed young English talent like Aribo, Kent, Bassey etc without Gerrard's presence. His pulling power and European performances have allowed us to regain our financial standing
and respectin the game.
 
Without Souness, I don't think the club would have went down the road it did. Quite clearly there was a desire to fill the place again but we would have went big on mainly Scottish signings and maybe the odd Anglo-Scot.

And, yeah, no David Murray. Holmes was priming the club for sale on behalf of Marlborough. So that would still have happened with the only question being who that buyer would be. Murray always planted scare stories about Maxwell but a pre-Murray Rangers in the 1980s would have attracted Scottish business interest for sure.
 
Bear84 said:
2 questions really, who would it have been and how different would the outcome have been?

Was there an alternative candidate ever discussed or rumoured or was it always going to be Souness?

If it hadn't been Souness then presumably the extra investment was still available and there would still have been an upturn in quality recruits? Or did Souness come in and drive the extra investment?

Maybe Murray's later involvement would have been less likely but primarily I'm wondering about how different things would have been in 1986.

Just a bit too young to have known all the detail at the time so interested to know what else may have transpired.
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The appointment was made pretty much as soon as the dust had settled on Wallace leaving. I don't remember if the press even had time to speculate about a replacement but Souness was never turning us down.

He was interviewed on film for the "Only A Game" documentary where he mentioned he'd "love to be player-manager of Rangers though he'd settle for manager". I don't recall if it had already aired at the time but if not I'm sure someone involved must have mentioned it to David Holmes before Wallace was sacked.

Holmes was tasked with making Rangers sellable for Lawrence Marlborough so as soon as he'd have heard that one of Scotland's two genuine world superstars wanted the gig it would pretty much have been a done deal. At the time Holmes said there was only one name on his list of potential managers. I don't remember the press asking him when he made the list.
 
dh1963 said:
That's who I was expecting to take over from Jock Wallace whenever he left.

Might have been Craig Levein and Billy Thompson instead of Terry Butcher and Chris Woods!
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Craig Levein and Henry Smith. John Robertson and Ally McCoist. I'm liking this Rangers team. I'm liking it a lot.

MacDonald would have been a fairly obvious candidate at that time. The club/press generally looked at who was doing well in the league and, as a bonus, if they had a Rangers connection. Alex Ferguson was one of the favourites for that reason when Jock Wallace left in May 1978!
 
Alex Venters said:
I disagree.
I simply don't see Butcher turning down Man Utd or Spurs if Souness wasn't in charge.
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I think you're probably right, but seem to remember a press interview given by Terry Butcher later in life when he said Manchester United had told him something during signing talks which he discovered to be untrue - unfortunately he didn't elaborate further. I believe Ipswich Town were also unhappy with United's proposals for the term over which the agreed transfer fee was to be paid.
 
I think that Souness touted himself for the Rangers job a few weeks before he was offered it by David Holmes. Souness gave a TV interview when at Sampdoria where he said," The man who turns around Glasgow Rangers will be set for life." I don't know what interviewer's question had prompted that answer.

However, David Holmes deserves credit for having the foresight to follow up on that comment and phone Souness at his Italian Villa and sound him out about taking the player-manager job. The rest is history, the revolution had begun.
 
Bluefin221 said:
Craig Levein and Henry Smith. John Robertson and Ally McCoist. I'm liking this Rangers team. I'm liking it a lot.

MacDonald would have been a fairly obvious candidate at that time. The club/press generally looked at who was doing well in the league and, as a bonus, if they had a Rangers connection. Alex Ferguson was one of the favourites for that reason when Jock Wallace left in May 1978!
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Robbo would've been a great player for us at that time.
 
Chris the Bandito said:
The appointment was made pretty much as soon as the dust had settled on Wallace leaving. I don't remember if the press even had time to speculate about a replacement but Souness was never turning us down.

He was interviewed on film for the "Only A Game" documentary where he mentioned he'd "love to be player-manager of Rangers though he'd settle for manager". I don't recall if it had already aired at the time but if not I'm sure someone involved must have mentioned it to David Holmes before Wallace was sacked.
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The OAG documentary was broadcast in May 1986 but the interview with Souness where he floated the idea of being player/manager of Rangers was conducted in September 1985. Walter Smith knew he was going to Rangers in February 1986. I'd love to know the timeline of when Souness was first approached and why. It seems hell of a coincidence to say you want to be player-manager and then to get that job seven months later.
 
There was no vacancy. Jock Wallace left the club and Souness was appointed the same day if I remember correctly.
 
Prepared to be slated for this but I think folk are quite misty-eyed about the circumstances that brought Graeme Souness to Rangers.
Lawrence Marlborough wanted to sell his stake in the club and preparing Rangers for that sale was his focus, and that of David Holmes.
The revolution was bankrolled to maximise the sale value, rather than return glory IMO.
One inevitably led to the other though.

If Graeme Souness has rejected the opportunity.. there’s a question. Ferguson and McLean had already said no previously… it would have been difficult to give them a second opportunity but being told there was the type of money that was available to Souness would likely have turned Ferguson’s head.
Although he would have been quite disciplined about using it as a stepping stone to England.

Interesting shout for Alex MacDonald… given Hearts’ run in 85/86 then there would have been a strong case for him (possibly with Sandy Jardine alongside him). Doddie’s Rangers credentials unquestionable as well… but while he might have got a title or two over the next 5-6yrs, the dominance that Souness established was only possible through him.

It would be fascinating to know what Holmes’ other options or thoughts were.
 
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Ferguson told Strachan in Mexico that he would only leave Aberdeen for Man Utd or Barcelona. This was obviously after Souness had went to Rangers anyway. I feel that, after Gothenburg, Ferguson wasn't moving within Scotland.
 
Marstonbear said:
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
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Good assessment of the situation. As I recall, Lawrence Marlborough had been the largest single shareholder until the winter of 1985/86, then acquired further shares during this period to become the majority shareholder. David Holmes was given delegated authority to resurrect the club, and was clear that no candidate other than Souness had been considered.
I don't think we would gave gone back for Jim McLean given the reasons he stated for turning us down in 1983 - he just couldn't bear to leave Tannadice.
Ferguson is an interesting one - he is said to have declined the job in 1983 because he was not approached directly by Willie Waddell, whom he believed was still pulling the strings despite having formally stood down as GM/MD. Could he have been persuaded in early 1986 ? And if he had made the move, was he still destined for Old Trafford following the dismissal of Ron Atkinson ? (Regardless of the ban from European competition being served by English clubs).
 
Boldvale said:
Souness wasn't the draw the English sides were banned from Europe.
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Bobby Russell's Perm said:
Were English clubs still banned from European football hence the cream of English talent heading north.
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English clubs had been banned from Europe for a year already. There had been no exodus north.

When Souness was appointed, Rangers ripped up their pay structure to support him reaching out to top players in England. That was a factor.

Plus people forget how big Souness was. He was indisputably the best Scottish player (Dalglish was in decline), at a time when Scotland qualified regularly for World Cups (4 in a row at that point), and a European Cup winning captain. Even Celtic fans I knew loved Souness. Obviously, once he became the face of Rangers, attitudes changed.
 
TheLizardKing said:
You need to go and listen to the Souness & Smith show on the Heart and Hand network. It’s absolutely sensational.
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I agree 100%.

I'd been saving the Dominant show for the 7 hour drive down to my in-laws and I just started it a few days ago. I didn't realise how in depth it was and that I'd wouldn't have even reached kick-off in the 9-in-a-row season after a 14-hour round trip. B-)

It covers every question asked above and fixes the timeline of when that Souness interview was broadcast and who knew what and when.

I couldn't recommend it highly enough.
 
The People said:
Totally agree

That appointment come totally out the blue and was sensational

I mind going to a Glasgow cup game on a Friday night against Them soon after and the place was rammed full ,believe it or not not all old firm games sold out during those times pre souness.
Fantastic times and the man is a legend who turned the big ship around to quote a phrase from Them times.
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100 % I had a season ticket but didn’t get a ticket for that game. Was a Friday night if I remember correctly
 
RabSpackman said:
Prepared to be slated for this but I think folk are quite misty-eyed about the circumstances that brought Graeme Souness to Rangers.
Lawrence Marlborough wanted to sell his stake in the club and preparing Rangers for that sale was his focus, and that of David Holmes.
The revolution was bankrolled to maximise the sale value, rather than return glory IMO.
One inevitably led to the other though.

If Graeme Souness has rejected the opportunity.. there’s a question. Ferguson and McLean had already said no previously… it would have been difficult to give them a second opportunity but either of them being told there was the type of money that was available to Souness would likely have turned Ferguson’s head.
Although he would have been quite disciplined about using it as a stepping stone to England.

Interesting shout for Alex MacDonald… given Hearts’ run in 85/86 then there would have been a strong case for him (possibly with Sandy Jardine alongside him). Doddie’s Rangers credentials unquestionable as well… but while he might have got a title or two over the next 5-6yrs, the dominance that Souness established was only possible through him.

It would be fascinating to know what Holmes’ other options or thoughts were.
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Enjoyed this post, just wondering how the eventual sale price of £6 million in late 1987 was assessed by the Lawrence Group ? I always felt Murray got Rangers on the cheap, perhaps brought about by serious losses incurred by the Lawrence Group who were engaged in road building projects in the US by this time.
 
Grizzly_Bear said:
Nonsense, the English players could've gone anywhere in Europe, but were happy to sign for the iconic Sounnes, a magnificent bastard and a winner.

Gerrard had a similar effect, albeit at a different level. We would not have signed young English talent like Aribo, Kent, Bassey etc without Gerrard's presence. His pulling power and European performances have allowed us to regain our financial standing
and respectin the game.
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You are correct about Gerrard, but I doubt it was always Butchers dream to win the SPL
 
Perhaps we would have signed Alex MacDonald.

Maybe gamble on Alex Smith or Alex Miller.

I can't imagine the club atractting someone from South of the border. Even with the parameters mentioned in the thread, money available, English clubs not playing in Europe.

To put things in context for the younger generations, Rangers had as much money as anyone in the English top flight. Man United were drawing crowds of 25-30000 to Old Trafford. Everton were a top two-top three club yet we were signing Stevens & Steven from them.

Nobody apart from Souness would have been able to sort that out for us.
 
Coruña Loyal said:
Perhaps we would have signed Alex MacDonald.

Maybe gamble on Alex Smith or Alex Miller.

I can't imagine the club atractting someone from South of the border. Even with the parameters mentioned in the thread, money available, English clubs not playing in Europe.

To put things in context for the younger generations, Rangers had as much money as anyone in the English top flight. Man United were drawing crowds of 25-30000 to Old Trafford. Everton were a top two-top three club yet we were signing Stevens & Steven from them.

Nobody apart from Souness would have been able to sort that out for us.
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Correct, hence The Souness Revolution.
 
Chris the Bandito said:
The appointment was made pretty much as soon as the dust had settled on Wallace leaving. I don't remember if the press even had time to speculate about a replacement but Souness was never turning us down.

He was interviewed on film for the "Only A Game" documentary where he mentioned he'd "love to be player-manager of Rangers though he'd settle for manager". I don't recall if it had already aired at the time but if not I'm sure someone involved must have mentioned it to David Holmes before Wallace was sacked.

Holmes was tasked with making Rangers sellable for Lawrence Marlborough so as soon as he'd have heard that one of Scotland's two genuine world superstars wanted the gig it would pretty much have been a done deal. At the time Holmes said there was only one name on his list of potential managers. I don't remember the press asking him when he made the list.
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That timeline is how I recall it. I'm sure Wallace's sacking was announced mid/late afternoon on a Wednesday. Yours truly was playing a midweek match for my amateur side, and of course the sacking was the main topic, until someone turned up to say Souness was expected to take over.
Cue several ''no f#cking way man'' responses. I'm sure the appointment was the next day or day after.
 
Amity75 said:
I just remember coming home from school and seeing it on the news and standing there stunned with my old man going "It's amazing, isn't it?". Souness in the now iconic shot of him in full kit beside the "Welcome to Ibrox" sign. It just came completely out of nowhere and was the biggest event in my life since Star Wars came out.
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Magnificent player, but a Wookie manager. Turned out to be a (Jedi)Masterstroke.
 
Blue bells are blue1872 said:
More or less it was a few weeks later Alex.Totten initially stood in very briefly for a few weeks I think.
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Wasn’t that due to souness contract with sampdoria and ironing out Walters’ contract. I also thought they were announced at same time but could just be my memory
 
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