Youth Academy value for money or not ?

I have said it for years, scrap it. Our youth set up is nothing more than a vanity project.

Any real top class youth players leave us to go down south at 16.

Scrap it and spend the money on the first team.
 
I'm all for giving youth a chance, but we're one of the most unforgiving set of supporters on the planet and this season ahead is the last one to be taking any chances with.

Let's get 55 out of the way, breathe slowly, relax a bit and then start really putting young players forward. That's the point at which the conveyor belt can really start to turn. But not now.
 
I'd scrap it. Not for knee jerk reasons but simply because Scotland has little talent. The true stars WILL head south at 16 as we've seen. We haven't even brought through squad filling back up in a decade or more. In years us and scum have had Gilmour and Islam Feruz and he went off the rails.

I can't see much change to this. Nathan Patterson seems to be 4th choice. The national team is terrible, where is the culture of young talent?

It might be better to soak up academy graduates from elsewhere....not everyone makes grade with Chelsea, Arsenal, Barça etc.
 
Let's roll.. said:
If they're good enough for Bayern City etc then why the hell can't we play them that's ridiculous.
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Because there not good enough. Gilmour aside, although the same arguement could be made for him, if he bombed in the cup game he played instead of looking like a worldbeater he would still be training/playing with under 17's

Scattergun approach by clubs with too much money, If you snap up youths at 50-100k a pop you need 1 in ~200 to be half decent to make an overall profit. Man Utd aside pretty much every good 'graduate' was bought from another team for buttons. Diaz e.g. cost city 200k at 16, played ~15 times in 6 years then went to Real Madrid for £15m+

Last City players to come through their academy (Ignoring Foden) were Brandon Barker, Ben Mee & Shay Logan, the rest were scouted and bought cheap at 16, which we realistically should be doing as well, If this guy from Leicester e.g. is free(or cross-border super cheap) & better than what we have we should sign him regardless of whether theres 20 others boys who've been here for 10years & might be good 'one day'

As others have said though we need a route into the 1st team(currently it seems to be loaned out for 2-3 years), right now theres too much pressure on us to win so apart from if you draw a 3rd division team or have a huge amount of injurys I doubt anyone from the academy will make 5 appearances next season nevermind 10-20
 
Brady84 said:
Because there not good enough. Gilmour aside, although the same arguement could be made for him, if he bombed in the cup game he played instead of looking like a worldbeater he would still be training/playing with under 17's

Scattergun approach by clubs with too much money, If you snap up youths at 50-100k a pop you need 1 in ~200 to be half decent to make an overall profit. Man Utd aside pretty much every good 'graduate' was bought from another team for buttons. Diaz e.g. cost city 200k at 16, played ~15 times in 6 years then went to Real Madrid for £15m+

Last City players to come through their academy (Ignoring Foden) were Brandon Barker, Ben Mee & Shay Logan, the rest were scouted and bought cheap at 16, which we realistically should be doing as well, If this guy from Leicester e.g. is free(or cross-border super cheap) & better than what we have we should sign him regardless of whether theres 20 others boys who've been here for 10years & might be good 'one day'

As others have said though we need a route into the 1st team(currently it seems to be loaned out for 2-3 years), right now theres too much pressure on us to win so apart from if you draw a 3rd division team or have a huge amount of injurys I doubt anyone from the academy will make 5 appearances next season nevermind 10-20
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Foden naw?
 
I believe the Ajax model is the way forward for Rangers but it’s hard to achieve that just now because of the total lack of trophies. There’s an added pressure just now because us fans have been starved of success. I guess the concern is if we end up with a wonder kid such as Billy Gilmour then it’s easy for them to take offers down south with it being so close to home.
 
I also heard, but on here (!) that Kai Kennedy can't see a route to first team and is seeking 'options'
 
My issue that I've brought up before is we've not produced a 20 plus goal a season striker for our team (top flight excluding Andy Little) since Robert Fleck over 35 years ago! I think that's a disgrace.
 
If none of the current youths that we've been told are the best group of kids we've had for years make it I would scrap it tbh. Waste of money if not 1 can make the break through.
 
BlueSevenTwo said:
So not good enough or the manager not giving youth a chance?
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I honestly couldn’t say as none have had much of a chance, McCrorie looked good to me but the manager doesn’t seem to rate him and may be vindicated as he’s struggled for Portsmouth but he had several really good games for us .

Patterson, Mayo or Kennedy haven’t had much more than 3 games between them.
 
Do people genuinely think the Academy is full of players ready to play first team football and we decide just to block the 'pathway' and not give them a game?

McCrorie and Kelly are the furthest forward in their development at the moment, and they will both be playing top division football in the coming season. That's progress.
 
Papac said:
I don't see the point in having one until they're 16 if they can leave on a relative 'free'. Also our players tend to be competitive until they hit the 18-20 age group when you need to kick on from being a promising youth player and a full professional. I'm sure there's 100 reasons why you should have a youth system but we've only really had Ferguson, McGregor and Hutton in my lifetime that have truly made a massive impact at the club and that doesn't seem to represent value for money when Kilmarnock have given us two in Naismith and Boyd alone. I think we're better off buying the best players from other youth systems. You need to be exceptional to break through and establish yourself while playing enough football to continue developing. See Fleck who never made it here and is currently a mainstay of a Premier League side in England.
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We have been much more active at trying to sign youth talent from elsewhere in the 16-19 age group of late. Hopefully we start to see that, and better coaching, staff to have an effect.

I think folk also need to remember that our youth system was damaged by going to the bottom.

Talent has been the biggest issue though, Fleck and Gilmour look like the only ones that we have once had that could have become 1st team regulars. Fleck was mismanaged but suffered from his own attitude as well. Gilmour’s situation was unfortunate but we got at least some money for him and had no choice on that one.
 
Rio Loyal said:
I honestly couldn’t say as none have had much of a chance, McCrorie looked good to me but the manager doesn’t seem to rate him and may be vindicated as he’s struggled for Portsmouth but he had several really good games for us .

Patterson, Mayo or Kennedy haven’t had much more than 3 games between them.
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It’s a difficult one all round , like you not seen the players other than Stranraer.
IMO there Patterson had a good first half but was rash and carded in a game where he was under no pressure.
Kennedy looked too small and physically not ready but seems rated by some on here.
 
Chimo said:
Do people genuinely think the Academy is full of players ready to play first team football and we decide just to block the 'pathway' and not give them a game?

McCrorie and Kelly are the furthest forward in their development at the moment, and they will both be playing top division football in the coming season. That's progress.
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Not for the amount of cash we have spent on training and coaching.
 
BlueSevenTwo said:
It’s a difficult one all round , like you not seen the players other than Stranraer.
IMO there Patterson had a good first half but was rash and carded in a game where he was under no pressure.
Kennedy looked too small and physically not ready but seems rated by some on here.
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Kennedy looked good in the cup against Inverness.
 
Chimo said:
You've obviously decided the youth academy in a waste of time, the club think otherwise.

You'll need to get used to that.
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It doesn’t produce results so what’s the point ??

Hopefully with all this reconstruction it will start to bear fruit but we have been hearing this for 5 years .
 
It is with it , unfortunately we had some poor people in charge , however now we seem to be on the right track . I would expect some players to start to come through this year/ next. By then then the present management at youth level will have had time to be judged.
 
Chimo said:
Do people genuinely think the Academy is full of players ready to play first team football and we decide just to block the 'pathway' and not give them a game?

McCrorie and Kelly are the furthest forward in their development at the moment, and they will both be playing top division football in the coming season. That's progress.
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So was hickey more ready than Kelly..4 year age difference?
 
Chimo said:
Do people genuinely think the Academy is full of players ready to play first team football and we decide just to block the 'pathway' and not give them a game?

McCrorie and Kelly are the furthest forward in their development at the moment, and they will both be playing top division football in the coming season. That's progress.
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I think they will be first team players next season
 
All we have to offer these kids ahead of EPL clubs is a chance of 1st team football . We currently don't even do that there is literally no evidence to show a kid he's got a better chance of making it with us. He's as well getting thousands a week with no chance of 1st team football than the hundreds we'd be paying him.
 
Craig McColl said:
All we have to offer these kids ahead of EPL clubs is a chance of 1st team football . We currently don't even do that there is literally no evidence to show a kid he's got a better chance of making it with us. He's as well getting thousands a week with no chance of 1st team football than the hundreds we'd be paying him.
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1000% nailed it pal.
 
As I stated in another thread, you have to start by asking the key question - what purpose does an 'academy' serve? Most people would claim that its principal function is to provide a pipeline of top young talent that can eventually be integrated into the first-team squad, thus saving the parent club from having to spend resources on transfer funds, whilst also holding out the prospect that these home-grown players could later be sold for a significant profit.

But at present, and for a long time, Rangers player-development has failed to meet the aforementioned criteria. During the past 20 years, only academy-products, Barry Ferguson and Alan Hutton, have been of the required standard. Of course, the vast majority of young Rangers academy players won't make it to the top echelon, but we have to expect a better return than what we have seen thus far.

So, either the problem resides in poor scouting, ineffective coaching, lack of a viable pathway from the academy into the first team—either way Rangers have to re-think the whole thing. Alternatively, the academy concept should be scrapped in its entirety, and the money saved re-directed into the first team transfer budget.
 
GranvillusClutterbuckus said:
I'm all for giving youth a chance, but we're one of the most unforgiving set of supporters on the planet and this season ahead is the last one to be taking any chances with.

Let's get 55 out of the way, breathe slowly, relax a bit and then start really putting young players forward. That's the point at which the conveyor belt can really start to turn. But not now.
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55... ffs stop going on about 55 its like a lead filled tyre round our necks
 
Paterson and Kennedy etc will play no full competitive league games this season guaranteed.we should spend the 4-6million we spend on academy every year right into first team .makes more sense
 
I'd like to see what the cost over the past 20 years has been to make a call really. As it stands, I don't see the point of it really. Especially if the very best are just going to get hoovered up by Chelsea etc.
 
I think you have to have one otherwise you’re surrendering the best local talent to other clubs. I think we’ve had some talent come through there the problem seems to lie more with the transition to senior level.
 
Let's roll.. said:
A
Apparently he has already got 7 EPL teams looking for his signature and 2German teams ,if we can't find place then the kid has to go and see what's out there .
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And so he should. Not a bluenose, could treble his wages, and might get closer to first team elsewhere. He can't not have noticed Gilmour at Chelsea.
 
Part of Rangers issue is we live in a world where there is a very unforgiving fan base because even the smallest slip up can change where a title heads. Leagues have been decided by goals. So players need to prove they can be of use to the team from the second they cross the line to make their debut. Most of our youth aren’t good enough or will have things that hamper them before they become a pro. From a decent sized group say a squad of 32, I think a decent number getting a first team game for us would be 5 and from that 5, maybe one or two becoming first team players another could be a squad player and the other 2 will go elsewhere.
The next issue flies in the face of the instant star idea. Youth projects are a long term 5 years down the line project. So yes we may get an exciting prospect at 14 but even 5 years later he is still viewed as a young player and got about another 8 years before he hits his peak. So 13 years after you bring this kid in he will have hopefully entered the peak phase of his career.
I’ve no idea what the setup is like at the moment but another poster mentioned that it’s been improved and worked upon since 2015. In other words we should start to see 1 or 2. We have the young guy Patterson who seems like a decent prospect and has already played first team football. I’m sure we will see a few more this season.
Players that have come through in my lifetime:
Miller, Ferguson, Bob Malcolm, Scott Wilson, Steven Hughes, Stevie Smith, Ross McCormack, Alan Hutton, Chris Burke, McGregor, Charlie Adam, John Fleck, Danny Wilson. Since 2012 there has been a parade of guys who aren’t good enough: McKay, Beerman, Bates, Little, McLeod, Aird. The two who have shown promise are Patterson and Gilmore - who left.
Sadly Rossiter from Liverpool never worked out but he came in as a genuinely exciting prospect, about 19 IIRC.
 
Rio Loyal said:
So as not to derail the transfer rumours thread anymore I’ve started a separate thread .

The last player we brought through and sold for any decent cash was Hutton 12 years ago.

We haven’t brought even many squad fillers through in years .

Apparently Patterson is one of our best prospects but if rumours are true we are looking at a player exactly the same age and position from Leicester,

Opinions on value for money and players seeing a path to the first team as for me we are falling down in both these areas !
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Fleck? Gilmour?

Bar a few of the last 10 years, we've been in a pretty abnormal situation in terms of players resource.

After this season or possibly after we win a title, I can see 'overspending' rationalizing & certainly internal pressure on the coaching staff to use youth players.

I'd like to think if the stakes of these titles weren't what they were, they would at least be getting the odd chance.
 
Glasgowsteve said:
Part of Rangers issue is we live in a world where there is a very unforgiving fan base because even the smallest slip up can change where a title heads. Leagues have been decided by goals. So players need to prove they can be of use to the team from the second they cross the line to make their debut. Most of our youth aren’t good enough or will have things that hamper them before they become a pro. From a decent sized group say a squad of 32, I think a decent number getting a first team game for us would be 5 and from that 5, maybe one or two becoming first team players another could be a squad player and the other 2 will go elsewhere.
The next issue flies in the face of the instant star idea. Youth projects are a long term 5 years down the line project. So yes we may get an exciting prospect at 14 but even 5 years later he is still viewed as a young player and got about another 8 years before he hits his peak. So 13 years after you bring this kid in he will have hopefully entered the peak phase of his career.
I’ve no idea what the setup is like at the moment but another poster mentioned that it’s been improved and worked upon since 2015. In other words we should start to see 1 or 2. We have the young guy Patterson who seems like a decent prospect and has already played first team football. I’m sure we will see a few more this season.
Players that have come through in my lifetime:
Miller, Ferguson, Bob Malcolm, Scott Wilson, Steven Hughes, Stevie Smith, Ross McCormack, Alan Hutton, Chris Burke, McGregor, Charlie Adam, John Fleck, Danny Wilson. Since 2012 there has been a parade of guys who aren’t good enough: McKay, Beerman, Bates, Little, McLeod, Aird. The two who have shown promise are Patterson and Gilmore - who left.
Sadly Rossiter from Liverpool never worked out but he came in as a genuinely exciting prospect, about 19 IIRC.
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Really liked your post, but I think we signed Rossiter knowing about the injury issues.

He wouldn't have been in our stratosphere otherwise.
 
Candyass said:
Fleck? Gilmour?

Bar a few of the last 10 years, we've been in a pretty abnormal situation in terms of players resource.

After this season or possibly after we win a title, I can see 'overspending' rationalizing & certainly internal pressure on the coaching staff to use youth players.

I'd like to think if the stakes of these titles weren't what they were, they would at least be getting the odd chance.
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We have had games when could have given some of the younger guys 15-20 minutes easily,
The management either don’t think they are good enough or have no intention of giving them a chance.
 
Leo_Ger said:
Our youth system was decimated during the period from 2011-2015. It needed an entire rebuild and the fruits of the rebuilding weren't going to be seen in the last couple of years.

The lack of perspective on this thread in regards to that is frankly astounding.
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It's staggering, isn't it?

Utterly ridiculous from some posters. It's as if the last eight years didn't happen :D
 
Think a lot of people also are not sure about the money that is moved around in youth football, lot of it funded by uefa, govt, sfa as well as the clubs.

Once on the books that player gets x amount of professional hours training these players then have a value based on that finding received from the above places.

If I player had x amount of hours training and moved to another club we are gteed a fee.

From a business perspective youth football is massive.

Where the major benefit is if players come through and we can either use them or sell them on.

If e can use them and they are good enough we get that player plus a sell on fee eventually.

If not then we at least get something back.

However do we produce enough players good enough and the answer is probably not but I think that us a lot down to the expectations of the fans and pressure off playing for us.

This is where I think we have got better and that it's by putting these players out to different league and teams to play at a young age it will make them get the mistakes out the way and learn
 
People saying uefa should stop players moving to bigger clubs for buttons are mad. It’s life and can’t be changed. These players have a right to change employment when they want as long as they don’t break there current contract .
It’s like me going to a person on this forums work and offering them 10x their current salary. They have a one month notice which they work before joining but their current employer try and block it because you are an asset to their business. Fact of life is employment is based on your contract and if you don’t break that you can leave and join another job and nothing your current employer can do. In Rangers context . These players don’t have a professional contract and by signing for Chelsea for 10x the money they are not breaching their contract with us . In any job the cream rises to the top and the best people tend to get the promotions and money . The best football players go to the best clubs and earn more money
 
strider said:
I think we need to be able to define what people are expecting here.

For those who think "scrap it" or that it's not value for money, what are you expecting to see from it?

It's always worth remembering that the challenges Rangers have had to overcome in roughly the last decade are unique. No club has been through what we have.
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We can write off 6 years, so that leaves at least 12 years which is a very poor return.
 
I get what the OP is saying but the club can and will do better at this. UEFA's 'homegrown' rule makes scrapping the youth setup a non-starter.
 
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