Abolish Offside? Discussion

Unicorse said:
Obviously the Man Utd v Coventry is the most recently high profile example of VAR and offside being a controversial issue in the game

The main reason is:

- the nature of 'clear and obvious error'

- the thickness of the lines

- the moment to draw the lines when the ball was struck (20millisecond difference in frames can be the difference between on and offside)

Wengers suggestion of giving advantage to the striker is interesting but just moves the 'fault line' and makes things just as confusing


Other suggestions I have read is change the rule so that it's only offside if 2 attacking players are in an 'offside' position. This happens less regularly meaning fewer goals being chalked off. It would change the way the game is played if 1 player is allowed further up the pitch

Another suggestion is scrap offside completely

They scrapped the away goals rule which has proven to increase goals in European ties

Is it worth doing the same with offside?

staceywest.net

Rethinking Football: Offside – Is It Time To Get Rid? | The Stacey West

I did a couple of articles in this series, one on discipline and another on cup competitions. Today, it’s time to look at a law [...]
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Discuss
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Naw.

Naw.
 
what about refining the interpretation of the offside rule so you prioritise the attacking intent of the player. if the attacking player is making a genuine attempt to play the ball or move into an advantageous position, they should be given more leniency in offside situations.

I see no reason what so ever why that Coventry goal should have been disallowed, i get that he was technically offside but i mean come on you have to favour that attacking player in those situations
 
The issue that has been raised recently is something that I agree with that a lot of the cameras being used do not have good enough frame rates to distinguish exactly when the player has made contact with the ball and calling an offside.

The problem with changing the margins of when you call offside or not is that there's always a debate, so maybe we have to look at giving the benefit to the attacker in another way.

To combat this, you have the technology to create a small clip of a designated amount of time, just a split second before the ball is kicked and after it leaves the boot.

Say that designated time is 1 second, which may not seem like much, but if you run a 1 second animated gif, it's enough for somebody to change position by several yards.

What that would mean is that if somebody is offside the whole time in that 1 second, no matter how marginal, it's offside.

However, if at any point they are on in the split second as the ball is kicked and just after, it would be called as on.
 
muttley said:
In those " toenail " situations, the attacker should always receive the benefit.
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It won’t change anything though, as who decides what constitutes a “toenail “? All it would do is change the arguement to wherever they decide the limit should be, nothing whatsoever would change.
 
its like the ball on the penalty spot, the whole ball doesnt even need to be on the spot anymore, just a tiny part of the ball needs to be on the spot and the whole ball needs to be over the goal line for a goal.

Make it the same for the offside rule
 
rocky bear said:
The offside rule just needs changed a little bit maybe have it so there needs to be daylight between the attacker and defender for it to be offside
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This is the answer, it should be something like this. Honestly, just shift the benefit of the doubt back heavily towards the attacker, fans of every team at this point have surely had one great moment taken away from them because of a "big toe was in front of the defender" offside call. Coventry at the weekend is just a ridiculously high profile example of football willingly killing off fantastic, historic moments of drama in favor of forensic science.

Nobody is ever going to miss that amazing piece of play when the centre half shifted his weight forward just enough to play the attacker's left hand offside. But we do lose out when great goals and moments in a season are denied by a system that's fine-tuned to a ridiculous degree to find any fault with a goal.
 
Barrymoped said:
It won’t change anything though, as who decides what constitutes a “toenail “? All it would do is change the arguement to wherever they decide the limit should be, nothing whatsoever would change.
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Of course, offside and other decisions will always in the end be decided by the person operating VAR. But as we've seen not only up here but elsewhere, they are just as fallible as before VAR was introduced.
 
Gdawg said:
You can't scrap it, it would completely change the game. I think there should be a clear gap between the two players, none of this drawing lines to see if someone's shoulder or knee cap is where the line should be drawn, but that's just my opinion. Regardless of how they do it decisions will be subjective and open to debate.
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Just moves the problem. You will have lines drawn from someone’s big toe to someone else’s arse etc and then the discussion of whether there is daylight or not will be flavour of the day.
 
muttley said:
Of course, offside and other decisions will always in the end be decided by the person operating VAR. But as we've seen not only up here but elsewhere, they are just as fallible as before VAR was introduced.
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Just as fallible as pre-VAR? I think people forget some of the horror show decisions linesmen would give before VAR.
 
Obviously there's the impact to consider on how the game is played - any changes that risk ultra defensive match ups being the norm for example would be a disaster - but I think some kind of rethink is required.

If we look at the Coventry goal, it was was off given the rules (and let's be honest, if Man U scored it no one would care) but it's not like the players were hanging about just waiting for the ball.

I did like Wenger's idea but as others have said, it'll just lead to lines being drawn elsewhere.
 
What about keeping the way it is.

No matter what we do there will still need to be lines drawn and there will be still controversy.

As for scrapping offside, it’s not 5 aside down at the playground ffs.
 
DrMantisTobogganMD said:
if any part of your body is in line with the last defender then onside imo. any clear daylight, offside.
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How much daylight. That's where the complaints would start all again. They would say ffs it's only 5mm offside. Or ffs it's only onside by 5mm. Or the line is too thick. If the line was thinner he would have been on/off. Cause you could/couldn't see daylight.

I'd say that it's practically impossible to have the smallest offside line and the camera showing the exact millisecond a ball is kicked.
 
Andre55 said:
We experimented with no offside outside the penalty box line in the Drybrough Cup and it was far more entertaining! The rules need to be changed as the disallowed Coventry goal shows! `In close decisions the benefit should be given to the attacker` is supposed to be the rule/guidance but it was clearly not applied in that case! It makes you wonder who is controlling football! What would SKY/FA/EPL prefer, revenue and advertising wise? MC v Coventry or an all Manchester final with world wide interest?
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You'd have been about 7 years old when the Drybrough Cup was in its heyday from 1971 to 1974. :confused: I'd have been 19 years old and watched all games Rangers played in it from 71-74. I did miss the two season revival in 79 and 80 - which did NOT feature the revised offside rule (it was only in play for 72, 73 and 74). The revival being memorable mainly for THAT Davie Cooper goal.

It was shite. It didn't even generate the expected deluge of goals, with most of the Finals simply having the same sort of scores you'd expect with 'standard' offside in play. Only 1 final was particularly high scoring - Hibs beating the Dhims 5-3 in extra time in 72/73.
 
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1BrianLaudrup said:
This is the answer, it should be something like this. Honestly, just shift the benefit of the doubt back heavily towards the attacker, fans of every team at this point have surely had one great moment taken away from them because of a "big toe was in front of the defender" offside call. Coventry at the weekend is just a ridiculously high profile example of football willingly killing off fantastic, historic moments of drama in favor of forensic science.

Nobody is ever going to miss that amazing piece of play when the centre half shifted his weight forward just enough to play the attacker's left hand offside. But we do lose out when great goals and moments in a season are denied by a system that's fine-tuned to a ridiculous degree to find any fault with a goal.
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The problem with there needs to be 'daylight' between the attacker and defender is there will always be the question of how do you define that daylight... you can't measure it and even if you did it will always result in the calls being so tight and marginal that nobody will ever agree on them.

As I've said in my post above, what if we agree that offside is offside no matter what... but... we create a 1 second clip as the ball is kicked and just after... and if you are offside in that whole second then there's no debate, but if you are on at any point within the second, then its onside.

We don't have the cameras with the frame rates to capture the exact moment the ball has left the foot, so, if you add the timeline of 1 second, then there is a margin of potential benefit to the attacker, which I think is the thing that we all want.
 
DrMantisTobogganMD said:
its like the ball on the penalty spot, the whole ball doesnt even need to be on the spot anymore, just a tiny part of the ball needs to be on the spot and the whole ball needs to be over the goal line for a goal.

Make it the same for the offside rule
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And how does that get rid of marginal decisions?

I'm guessing you're not really a doctor.
 
Offside decisions should have a time limit for bar officials to look.
it's meant to be clear and obvious errors.
if you can't tell withing 10 seconds with the naked eye, then it's not a clear and obvious error.
 
What's the problem with the offside rule? It's black and white. Offside is offside.

Scrapping offsides is a conversation that shouldn't even be entertained.
 
Teddy bear said:
Offside decisions should have a time limit for bar officials to look.
it's meant to be clear and obvious errors.
if you can't tell withing 10 seconds with the naked eye, then it's not a clear and obvious error.
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No, no its not. Not in relation to offside. See post #31.
 
Teddy bear said:
It should be.
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What, and bring VAR into play for EVERY offside decision? No thanks. Linesmen are instructed to keep their flags down for marginal decisions so they don't mistakenly prevent a goal - knowing that if a goal is scored the VAR will review it.
 
Imagine how many Dessers would've scored if offside was scrapped, league woulda been won in February
 
Number_9 said:
Don’t worry boys I will mark their keeper the full game. Just punt it up to me when you get a chance.
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Expand on that

What would defenders do?

How would that influence the midfield? Tactics?

I genuinely would like your thoughts
 
Don't be a silly sausage. If you get rid of offside, the game would descend into all the players clustering around the 2 penalty areas. There would be a mad scramble while the attack try to score and the defence aim to hoof the ball up to the other penalty area. Repeat ad nauseam.
 
WBD said:
There was a time when offside was 'standing in a position to gain advantage' Now it's ridiculous where a toe from someone whose body could be behind the defender is deemed offside. The 'rule' of giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt before VAR, not sure if it was ever official or carried out, but it is for me the sensible way. If VAR is to make the decision then for me there has to be a gap between attacker and defender.
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The idea that there has to be a gap to qualify as the forward seeking an advantage is a fair one IMO.
People being offside by virtue or the size of their feet, or a shoulder is not serving the sport.

I run the line at my kids’ football matches and have heard kids & parents claim that a player was off or onside by a toe - it’s a ridiculous claim to make in what is ultimately park football but that’s where a lot of people’s heads are.

Use VAR to monitor clear & obvious offsides and penalties, use goal-line technology to catch when a ball is all the way over the line, and let the referees get on with running their match.
That you have goals chopped off because there was a foul on the other side of the pitch 50 seconds ago is a joke.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
What, and bring VAR into play for EVERY offside decision? No thanks. Linesmen are instructed to keep their flags down for marginal decisions so they don't mistakenly prevent a goal - knowing that if a goal is scored the VAR will review it.
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For goals obviously.
The way var check every goal currently.
Linesman should be left to do thee job.
If a team score a goal and the linesman has missed an offside that it's clear as day, it gets pulled.
 
The only way you could scrap offside without it being a long ball farce would be to shorten / narrow the pitch so there is less space to hang around in.

I don’t think that would work well either though, would be like 7 aside.
 
You couldn't just scrap it altogether. I like the Wenger idea of any overlap between the attacker and defender. Maybe also consider how close it is to the goal and who ends up scoring etc.

The Coventry "goal" for example - the actual offside incident is about 40 yards from goal, out wide. The boy then runs another 30 yards, crosses, and his mate scores. How much did his big toe being offside genuinely impact that goal / disadvantage the Man Utd defence?

So maybe the Wenger rule outside the penalty box, or if it's for an assist to a goal? Inside the box, if a striker gets half a yard ahead of a defender and sticks a cross/pass straight into the net then you'd have to have it as it currently is.

Or maybe that just makes it even more of a clusterfuck :))
 
Gdawg said:
You can't scrap it, it would completely change the game. I think there should be a clear gap between the two players, none of this drawing lines to see if someone's shoulder or knee cap is where the line should be drawn, but that's just my opinion. Regardless of how they do it decisions will be subjective and open to debate.
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For me, the clear gap is the only way out of this. Can't keep having moments like Coventry on Sunday, it's totally ripping out the joy of the game.

Certainly don't agree with scrapping offside. It was brought in to stop players poaching in the the box and as you say, it would completely change the game. There's been enough tinkering with it.
 
Unicorse said:
Expand on that

What would defenders do?

How would that influence the midfield? Tactics?

I genuinely would like your thoughts
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The defender would either mark the attacker or they would leave it to the keeper to mark. You don’t need a midfield you just need attackers, defenders and a goalkeeper.
 
For me it just needs to be the full body. In the same way the full ball needs to cross the line for a goal, a player can only be offside if his full body is in front of the last defender. It might take time to review but it'd surely be better than this nonsense of players being offside by an elbow or a knee, which really does not give the attacker any kind of advantage.
 
Teddy bear said:
For goals obviously.
The way var check every goal currently.
Linesman should be left to do thee job.
If a team score a goal and the linesman has missed an offside that it's clear as day, it gets pulled.
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So not for 'clear and obvious errors' then, simply as we have now as part of the goal/penalty review?

I'm all for the attacker getting the benefit of the doubt. I'd argue that already happens though, because Linesmen are instructed that if there is even the slightest doubt they must keep their flag down and let it play out for review by VAR if it leads to a goal/penalty.

Under your proposal it still brings us to the point that you are either offside or you aren't. If I'm reviewing it and think 'that's marginal but I will let it go' and then the next match a colleague reviews identical footage and decides 'that's marginal I'm pulling it back' then chaos reigns because its become a subjective decision - as we see with subjective decisions regarding hand balls in the area. We are all crying out for that to be made clearer.

Let the technology - not the human - decide if its offside, because that's the sort of thing the technology is good at, and it then applies in exactly the same way for every decision and every team. Unless the technology isn't working as per the Aberdeen game (but that only seems to happen in Scotland).:confused:
 
Glass Onion said:
For me it just needs to be the full body. In the same way the full ball needs to cross the line for a goal, a player can only be offside if his full body is in front of the last defender. It might take time to review but it'd surely be better than this nonsense of players being offside by an elbow or a knee, which really does not give the attacker any kind of advantage.
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Won't work. Would simply lead to debates about whether his 'whole body' IS actually in front of the last defender or if there is actually a 1mm overlap.

Wherever the line is there will always be debate. That's why its best left to the technology.
 
Scrapping offside is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in relation to football. Thankfully it isn't one which anyone takes too seriously.

That article states that Van Basten thinks it'd be interesting to see what football would be like without it. No it wouldn't, and we already know exactly what would happen.

Strikers would simply hand around the goal and teams would need to abandon entirely and sort of high line which would kill any sort of decent pressing and end up with high numbers of defenders so deep it'd be almost an entirely different, much shitter, sport.

Just such an unfathomably stupid idea.
 
This all seems to have gathered pace from the Coventry goal. Of course it would have been a great FA cup story but the reality is he was offside.

People saying about "subjective" offside, I am struggling with that. Offside and goal line are the two most objective decisions in football. It is either offside or not, it is either over the line or not. Changing the rule only changes where the margins are measured, there will still be marginal offsides/onsides. I don't think scrapping it completey can be a serious suggestion, would ruin the game in my opinion.

Personally, the only changes I would suggest are:

1. Line should be drawn from the attacker and defenders feet, leaning offside shouldn't be a thing
2. They need a system that guarantees the freeze frame is at first point of contact with the player playing the ball - see Sima alleged offside image for handball penalty
3. The Champions League offside system should be the VAR default, as much clearer. AC Milan goal against inter last night being an example so clearly Serie A uses it as well. I don't know if this system guarantees my second point.
 
Offside needs to exist, otherwise you have playground football with folk “moochin” and it becomes ridiculous.

What they could do is say if the VAR lines are touching or the attacking line is clearly behind the defending line then it’s onside. Or properly train officials on what “give the attacker the benefit of the doubt” really means.

You’ll never please everybody. If you’re on the receiving end of a decision that goes against you it will be complained about. That will never change.
 
TheDerryend said:
Certainly don't agree with scrapping offside. It was brought in to stop players poaching in the the box and as you say, it would completely change the game. There's been enough tinkering with it.
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Bearing in mind how long there has been variations on the offside rule in football (going back to the 1860s and it was originally that the attacker had to be behind the ball, so based on previous rules in rugby) I do wonder if we should be making decisions based on situations from 150 years ago. After all, the origins of offside as we know it came in when sides had three defenders and five attackers, so offside helped restore the balance in favour of the defence. It would be curious to see how it played without it.

My dad was a linesman during the Dryburgh Cup experiments, and he said it made no real difference, as defenders still defended goal side of the strikers. He did say it stretched the linesmen's positioning as the traditional 'in line with the last defender didn't work if you could only give an offside after the 18 yard line, so the lino had to stay in ;line with the last player instead.
 
Think of the goals, possibly hundreds, Dessers would score every season if offside was abolished.

But no, leave as is. There's enough change been done in the last few years that still hasn't been implemented consistently. We don't need any more.
 
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