Abolish Offside? Discussion

Unicorse said:
Obviously the Man Utd v Coventry is the most recently high profile example of VAR and offside being a controversial issue in the game

The main reason is:

- the nature of 'clear and obvious error'

- the thickness of the lines

- the moment to draw the lines when the ball was struck (20millisecond difference in frames can be the difference between on and offside)

Wengers suggestion of giving advantage to the striker is interesting but just moves the 'fault line' and makes things just as confusing


Other suggestions I have read is change the rule so that it's only offside if 2 attacking players are in an 'offside' position. This happens less regularly meaning fewer goals being chalked off. It would change the way the game is played if 1 player is allowed further up the pitch

Another suggestion is scrap offside completely

They scrapped the away goals rule which has proven to increase goals in European ties

Is it worth doing the same with offside?

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Rethinking Football: Offside – Is It Time To Get Rid? | The Stacey West

I did a couple of articles in this series, one on discipline and another on cup competitions. Today, it’s time to look at a law [...]
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I live now in USA where abolishing offside, widening goals, establishing ways of increasing goal count (a 0-0 is beyond the NFL zealot's understanding over here), and other fiddle-faddling is always up for discussion. Offside is a sensible rule, driven to microcosmic insensibility b/c of VAR.
 
Flagg said:

A video from before the 2022 World Cup showing how the semi automated offside technology works in FIFA competitions

I think the UEFA version is slightly different as it solely uses camera technology opposed to FIFA who use a chip in the ball in order to determine when the ball has been played
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More info here:

Semi-automated offside technology uses 12 tracking cameras mounted underneath the roof of the stadium to track the ball and up to 29 data points of each individual player - calculating their exact position on the pitch, plus a chip in the ball to determine if it was played by a defender or attacker.

So in the case of an offside situation, the video operations room will receive an automated alert alongside an automatic selected point and an instant drawn lines within seconds of the incident.
www.thesun.co.uk

Everything we know about semi-automatic offside technology

TECHNOLOGY has become a key component in the world of football. One example of this is the semi-automatic offside tool – but what is it and has it been used in the Champions League? Here’s ev…
www.thesun.co.uk www.thesun.co.uk
 
It obviously can’t be abolished completely but players need to stop being penalised for having bigger feet than his opponent:rolleyes:
 
Valley Bluenose said:
Of course I would.:) On the other hand, if a 'Coventry' decision sees a Dhims goal disallowed it would reinforce my view.

That's the problem here, every c*nt feeling sorry for the underdog because 'David' didn't get to beat 'Goliath' on Sunday at Wembley.

Take the emotion out of it when trying to construct, or review, the Laws of the Game.
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As I have bet Man Utd to win the cup, I can assure if emotion was involved, I would be saying the opposite of what I have said.
 
Unicorse said:
That's the title

Did you read the opening thread

The one where different options were mentioned

Thanks for your input though, appreciated
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You were moaning about clickbait titles the other day......yet you've done exactly that with yours
 
Unicorse said:
Obviously the Man Utd v Coventry is the most recently high profile example of VAR and offside being a controversial issue in the game

The main reason is:

- the nature of 'clear and obvious error'

- the thickness of the lines

- the moment to draw the lines when the ball was struck (20millisecond difference in frames can be the difference between on and offside)

Wengers suggestion of giving advantage to the striker is interesting but just moves the 'fault line' and makes things just as confusing


Other suggestions I have read is change the rule so that it's only offside if 2 attacking players are in an 'offside' position. This happens less regularly meaning fewer goals being chalked off. It would change the way the game is played if 1 player is allowed further up the pitch

Another suggestion is scrap offside completely

They scrapped the away goals rule which has proven to increase goals in European ties

Is it worth doing the same with offside?

staceywest.net

Rethinking Football: Offside – Is It Time To Get Rid? | The Stacey West

I did a couple of articles in this series, one on discipline and another on cup competitions. Today, it’s time to look at a law [...]
staceywest.net staceywest.net


Discuss
Click to expand...
I would take up netball mate
 
Offside is an important part of the game but is no harm in looking to improve it,Nothing worse than a player being pulled up for being offside a yard into the opposition half or VAR chalking a goal off for a players hand or toe being offside,Should be a bit of lee way on the line with a bit of advantage to the attacker.
 
I think far too many are looking for a utopia where there are no offside decision mistakes ever again. We are sanitising the game, in my opinion, with the constant scrutiny of newer but not always better technology.

I'd like to see VAR binned if I'm honest and just go back to the linesman flagging for offside. I also think the clear daylight between attacker and defender is a good idea.

Will there be mistakes? Of course there will but VAR has just created more questions than answers. Football, for me, is about passion, spontaneity, celebrating last minute goals. Unfortunately, we live in a modern world where everything is analysed to death and football is no different.

I think goal line technology is as far as it should go. Leave the game alone, sometimes it's better just to keep things as they are.
 

Valley Bluenose said:
The attacker gains his advantage through the Linesman, as he's instructed, keeping his flag down for close decisions and allowing him to go on and score his 'goal'. Subject to it then being reviewed. In my day the flag would have gone up straight away and you'd be goosed.

As I've said, ad nauseum now, moving the line solves nothing it simply relocates the area of debate. Nothing changes.

I have no beef with the current implementation with the exception of the time taken on some tight decisions. The semi-automated stuff in the Champions League reduces that considerably (see Matondo goal I linked above) and will be introduced in England next season.

How we speed things up in the SPFL is a different matter. We're the equivalent of a Farmers League compared to those competitions.
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if as you 're rightly pointing out , the lines would only be relocating the problem even down to a 1mm overlap then maybe the answer is to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt .? As I said something has to be done as it's spoiling the game especially with the length of time it's taking in some cases to come to a decision.and the amount of goals being disallowed.
 
Unicorse said:
Obviously the Man Utd v Coventry is the most recently high profile example of VAR and offside being a controversial issue in the game

The main reason is:

- the nature of 'clear and obvious error'

- the thickness of the lines

- the moment to draw the lines when the ball was struck (20millisecond difference in frames can be the difference between on and offside)

Wengers suggestion of giving advantage to the striker is interesting but just moves the 'fault line' and makes things just as confusing


Other suggestions I have read is change the rule so that it's only offside if 2 attacking players are in an 'offside' position. This happens less regularly meaning fewer goals being chalked off. It would change the way the game is played if 1 player is allowed further up the pitch

Another suggestion is scrap offside completely

They scrapped the away goals rule which has proven to increase goals in European ties

Is it worth doing the same with offside?

staceywest.net

Rethinking Football: Offside – Is It Time To Get Rid? | The Stacey West

I did a couple of articles in this series, one on discipline and another on cup competitions. Today, it’s time to look at a law [...]
staceywest.net staceywest.net


Discuss
Click to expand...
My opinion is thru time it would be similar to Rugby having no forward pass and then with 'one forward pass' you have NFL. It might become a different game. It might be more exciting more goals but not the game we love. Haters of tika taka might be in favour:rolleyes:
 
Timardim said:
if as you 're rightly pointing out , the lines would only be relocating the problem even down to a 1mm overlap then maybe the answer is to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt .? As I said something has to be done as it's spoiling the game especially with the length of time it's taking in some cases to come to a decision.and the amount of goals being disallowed.
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How do you give the attacker the ‘benefit of the doubt’ and how much of a ‘benefit of the doubt’ do you give him? If he’s offside by a toe is it OK? What about by a size 9 boot? 18 inches maybe? Folk will argue it’s 1mm short of a toe or 1mm short of a size 9 boot etc. As I said, it’s simply relocating the point of debate from one area to another.

They get the benefit of the doubt by the Linesman being instructed not to flag, let them go on to score their ‘goal’ and leaving it to the VAR to decide for sure if they were offside or not. If the Linesman immediately flags, as used to be the case, we’d see many, many more goals disallowed.

I do agree on time taken to review. As stated earlier though, the semi-automated system gaining more traction and being introduced to the EPL next season will largely address that. It’s a huge improvement based upon how we’ve seen it in action in Rangers games.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
I'm sure I read a report that VAR has increased 'correct' decisions from circa 95% to something like 99%. Small margins, but every correct decision has to be welcomed. The reaction because 'David', metaphorically, didn't get to beat 'Goliath' at the weekend is bollocks.
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Your last paragraph is crucial. How would those correct decisions be quantified?
If there were no TV cameras, no replays and no scrutiny of each decision, then the officals would just get the same one shot to make their call as spectators.

What many forget is VAR is there to redress this by giving the officials the same opportunity to review and make decisions as arm chair fans, pundits and nowadays game going fans (and dugout coaching staff) when they can rewatch an incident directly afterwards on devices and benefit from a replay.

Without VAR that is deeply unfair on 3 officials trying to manage a game by the multiple rules when they are the only ones potentially that only get one split second look at it.

Not that I am saying it is all hunky dory but it needs to be there.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
How do you give the attacker the ‘benefit of the doubt’ and how much of a ‘benefit of the doubt’ do you give him? If he’s offside by a toe is it OK? What about by a size 9 boot? 18 inches maybe? Folk will argue it’s 1mm short of a toe or 1mm short of a size 9 boot etc. As I said, it’s simply relocating the point of debate from one area to another.

They get the benefit of the doubt by the Linesman being instructed not to flag, let them go on to score their ‘goal’ and leaving it to the VAR to decide for sure if they were offside or not. If the Linesman immediately flags, as used to be the case, we’d see many, many more goals disallowed.

I do agree on time taken to review. As stated earlier though, the semi-automated system gaining more traction and being introduced to the EPL next season will largely address that. It’s a huge improvement based upon how we’ve seen it in action in Rangers games.
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I'm talking about the scenario of the 1mm instance which you brought up..
 
VGM said:
They abolished the confed cup about ten years ago :D
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Step 1 - bring back intertoto cup

Step 2 - winners of it (probably newcastle) get into confederations cup

Step 3 - winners of that get into Kirkin Cup

Step 4 - winners of that set new offside rule for a behind closed doors friendly against St Johnstone
 
Timardim said:
I'm talking about the scenario of the 1mm instance which you brought up..
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So, are you saying if the attacker is marginally offside you give him the benefit of the doubt and call it onside? If so, it then becomes a subjective decision by the VAR. A bit like the farce we have with handball in the penalty area where one official will call a penalty and another will say it’s not. Chaos reigns.

We have the tech to make more accurate assessments of whether a player is offside or not rather than using the old eyeball. We should take advantage of that.

I posted details of the semi-automated system above somewhere. 12 cameras on the roofs, a microchip in the ball to track it, up to 29 data points on each player to establish their precise location on the pitch. That’s got to be better than the Mark 1 eyeball or leaving it to a human to guess/assess whether he’s going to call it or not?
 
Valley Bluenose said:
So, are you saying if the attacker is marginally offside you give him the benefit of the doubt and call it onside? If so, it then becomes a subjective decision by the VAR. A bit like the farce we have with handball in the penalty area where one official will call a penalty and another will say it’s not. Chaos reigns.

We have the tech to make more accurate assessments of whether a player is offside or not rather than using the old eyeball. We should take advantage of that.

I posted details of the semi-automated system above somewhere. 12 cameras on the roofs, a microchip in the ball to track it, up to 29 data points on each player to establish their precise location on the pitch. That’s got to be better than the Mark 1 eyeball or leaving it to a human to guess/assess whether he’s going to call it or not?
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I'm only saying that the current offside ruling/ decisions is spoiling our wonderful game and merely suggesting how I think it could be changed for the better as it's currently not helping the game . Maybe if they made it if any part of the the attackers body except limbs or head overlapped or was in line with the defenders body , then it's not offside....?
 
There was a post in here the other day that had probably the most sensible VAR argument I've ever heard. If you need to draw lines don't bother. It's onside.
 
Timardim said:
I'm only saying that the current offside ruling/ decisions is spoiling our wonderful game and merely suggesting how I think it could be changed for the better as it's currently not helping the game . Maybe if they made it if any part of the the attackers body except limbs or head overlapped or was in line with the defenders body , then it's not offside....?
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But again mate, all that does, is shift the line back a few inches, to the point where everyone is arguing if the tiniest part of an attackers body is in line.

The line has to be somewhere, and wherever that somewhere is, there will be arguments when it’s marginal
 
Barrymoped said:
But again mate, all that does, is shift the line back a few inches, to the point where everyone is arguing if the tiniest part of an attackers body is in line.

The line has to be somewhere, and wherever that somewhere is, there will be arguments when it’s marginal
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I find it incredible so many can’t seem to get their heads around this.:)
 
The Coventry ‘goal’ wasn’t a goal. It was offside. VAR did its job.

Everyone commiserates with the team who thought they’d scored only to have it chalked off. Why does no one look at it from the defending team’s perspective?

VAR stepping in and making the correct decision is the equivalent of the goal being given but the other team then scoring back instantly. It’s something worth celebrating and when it’s your team who looked like they’d conceded.

If the scoreline was level beforehand, then VAR correctly ruling out a goal maintains that parity.

No one disputes that it’s frustrating when you think you’ve scored a legal goal only to find that you haven’t. But that’s life.

Try and stay onside next time.
 
Good thread OP, it does feel like the current laws on offside need some form of change.
Removing it completely may not be the answer but it does need some consideration.
The offside incident at the end of the Coventry vs Manchester United incident game was a horrible watch.
Everything that’s wrong with the modern game.
 
Personally think that if there is not clear daylight between the forward and the last defender then the forward should be onside.

As a more controversial suggestion, the current rules where you can't be offside in your own half congests the game at times to a narrow part of the pitch. I'd certainly not abolish offside but perhaps extend the cut-off where you can't be offside 20 metres into the opponents half. This would stretch the game more but would require new pitch markings.
 
rossgers said:
The Dryburgh cup or the offside experiment?
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Ha ha, fair point, given we only made the final once in the initial 4 year period (and lost) and then only once (and won) when it returned for a further two years.

So, aye, both. :)

Dhims made 5 out of 6 finals by the way.:( Only won once though, when they beat us on penalties.
 
Unicorse said:
Annoyed?

I haven't given my opinion

What annoys me is when people go studs up into a discussion claiming anyone who contemplates changing the rule 'blatently doesn't understand the sport'

The offside rule have changed several times in the last 15 years, it's worthy of conversation
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It’s follow follow, you’ll be aware you’ll get the full spectrum of replies. positive negative ridiculous stupid irrelevant comedic long brief etc etc
You’ll also be aware the first reply always nails it.
 
Dedé Arneaux said:
It’s follow follow, you’ll be aware you’ll get the full spectrum of replies. positive negative ridiculous stupid irrelevant comedic long brief etc etc
You’ll also be aware the first reply always nails it.
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Which is a shame on this instance

First reply literally replied within the same minute I posted the OP

So had not read the article

Had no intention of discussing the issue

But thankfully there have been some really good insights posted
 
No matter how you change the rule, there will still be instances of a player being a bawhair on or off, and so the human error will always be a factor.

Unless AI decides in which frame the ball is kicked, generates the line and makes an almost instant decision.

Now that I type it, that sounds like the best solution!
 
Captain America said:
No matter how you change the rule, there will still be instances of a player being a bawhair on or off, and so the human error will always be a factor.

Unless AI decides in which frame the ball is kicked, generates the line and makes an almost instant decision.

Now that I type it, that sounds like the best solution!
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See post #152. That’s virtually what happens in the Champions League and is about to be introduced to the EPL.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
I find it incredible so many can’t seem to get their heads around this.:)
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I get it what you're saying about the relocation and moving the lines etc... and concede that point.
to quote an old saying " If yer aff , yer aff " but the passage of play scenario is the part of the offside I think could / should be looked and if taken out of the equation imo would eliminate the time delays..what do you think...?
 
Don’t over complicate it if your offside
Your offside either a yard or a ball hair it’s still offside everyone knows where they stand then
 
Timardim said:
I get it what you're saying about the relocation and moving the lines etc... and concede that point.
to quote an old saying " If yer aff , yer aff " but the passage of play scenario is the part of the offside I think could / should be looked and if taken out of the equation imo would eliminate the time delays..what do you think...?
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I did give a bit of thought to, for example, changing to saying a player couldn’t be offside if the pass was played from his own half. However, all that would do is potentially create a second line for the player making the pass as well as the one receiving it. Other alternatives similarly seem to just over complicate things. Only other thing I’d consider looking at would be whether ‘inactive’ players should be called offside or not. However, again, as soon as you get to subjective decisions made by officials rather than tech then things get chaotic.

The offside law and how the VAR applies it is fine if they can speed things up. That should happen in the EPL next season but we will be left with the Poundland version.

FWIW as soon as I saw the Coventry player take the pass at the weekend my first thought was ‘offside’. Said it to the Mrs straight away, despite us both rooting for Coventry. I’m sure most who watch football regularly would have instinctively thought the same. I think we see so many offsides our brains automatically do their own version of VAR. Unless it’s our own team when we, naturally, see what we want to see.:)
 
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I don’t want it scrapped but semi automatic has to be the technology used and the rules need to changed. I think the advantage should be in the attackers favour and unless there is a clear gap between the attacking player and the defensive player then their not offside.
 
Gameboy said:
I don’t want it scrapped but semi automatic has to be the technology used and the rules need to changed. I think the advantage should be in the attackers favour and unless there is a clear gap between the attacking player and the defensive player then their not offside.
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You're right on semi automatic but I disagree on the other. You simply shift the 'fine margins' debate to whether there actually IS clear daylight between the players or whether there is actually a 1mm overlap.

Any line, any where - and you do need a line somewhere - will be subject to the same scrutiny and debate. Wherever it is.
 
FIFA seem to be pushing Wenger's change and with the world cup in the US in 2026 they will want VAR sorted before then, I don't think it will really lead to teams sitting back like everyone assumes. We will just have less offside calls and more goals, at the moment defenders have a huge advantage in terms of the rule and it needs addressed.
 
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