Bayern Munich AGM Looks Lively

Leo_Ger said:
I wouldn't say I was necessarily making a comparison.

Allianz was a major supporter of the Nazi regime. Hitler's first cabinet included the head of Allianz and the Allianz Director-General was Hitler's economic minister during the Third Reich.

After Reichskristallnacht in 1938, he was responsible for the creation and enforcement of a Nazi policy to block insurance payments to Jews for their damaged and stolen property and instead direct the payments directly to the state. Allianz records show that the company benefited by stealing the amount due for these claims before they made the payments to the government, and recorded it as "business as usual." The organisation cooperated closely with the Nazi government to locate the life insurance policies of those who were sent to death camps.

Allianz insured the property and personnel of Nazi concentration camps, including the infamous Auschwitz extermination camp, and the Dachau concentration camp. Allianz also insured the engineers working at the IG Farben Company, which supervised the manufacture of the Zyklon B cyanide gas used at Auschwitz and other camps to systematically exterminate Jews and others during the Holocaust. Since, as part of the procedure of issuing the insurance policies, Allianz Group inspectors would have toured the camps to make a detailed assessment of the high risks involved at every step of the operation, they were fully aware of the purpose of the camps.

Bayern is a club with Jewish origins so having an organisation who profiteered and was significantly involved in the organisation of the holocaust as a major sponsor and holding the naming rights of your stadium seems quite ethically questionable if you're challenging that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I think there’s a massive difference between having a sponsor who was ethically questionable 70/80 years ago and a sponsor who’s ethically questionable today.

It’s probably quite difficult to find a German company or a company that was operating in Germany during that time who’s not ethically questionable but the Germans are a mature/sensible bunch and accept their historical failings.

The Germans try to use their historical failings and the lessons they’ve learned to fight injustices today. I applaud them for that. They don’t have the same self loathing that seems to be becoming more predominant in the UK/USA and don’t feel the need erase history because it doesn’t meet modern standards.
 
Board member shouting
"die Leistung bestimmter Schiedsrichter in Bayern-Spielen ist ihm ein Anliegen"
 
Wazza said:
Think this was all sorted a long time before Bayern got involved with them to be honest:

www.insurancetimes.co.uk

Allianz opens the door to its Nazi past

www.insurancetimes.co.uk www.insurancetimes.co.uk

I guess they could have changed their name and started again though, certainly doesn't appear they were in anyway in denial of what went on.
Click to expand...

Bayern became involved with them the same year as the article you've linked to.

Allianz financing the investigation and establishing their connections was because in the same time there was a process set-up to redress grievances of Holocaust survivors and descendants who were cheated out of life and property insurance payments.

Here's an article on how they approached the claims in the same year:

www.forbes.com

The Last Victims

As the Jews fled the Holocaust, European insurers pocketed their premiums. Decades later, they promised compensation. But so far, they've paid out a pittance.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
Leo_Ger said:
Bayern became involved with them the same year as the article you've linked to.

Allianz financing the investigation and establishing their connections was because in the same time there was a process set-up to redress grievances of Holocaust survivors and descendants who were cheated out of life and property insurance payments.

Here's an article on how they approached the claims in the same year:

www.forbes.com

The Last Victims

As the Jews fled the Holocaust, European insurers pocketed their premiums. Decades later, they promised compensation. But so far, they've paid out a pittance.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...
Could go on all day about this kind of stuff, sure Schickeria have addressed it - be amazed if not. Like I said about adidas as well, guess we are all guilty in a way. New York Giants and Jets refused Allianz as well.
 
prenzlauerbear said:
No, nothing like that whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Given the Celtic fans' views on Palestine and so on, they'd probably have no problem taking any Arab money.

Joking apart, the behaviour is very similar in principle - football supporters trying to disagree with their board's direction and both sides getting 'procedural' in trying to enforce it. Boards aren't used to that kind of challenge.
 
So glad Rangers are under good stewardship just now. Watching that makes me realise how much I don’t miss the constant battle against the board and the charlatans that called themselves directors in the past decade or so.
 
Chester Loyal said:
I think there’s a massive difference between having a sponsor who was ethically questionable 70/80 years ago and a sponsor who’s ethically questionable today.

It’s probably quite difficult to find a German company or a company that was operating in Germany during that time who’s not ethically questionable but the Germans are a mature/sensible bunch and accept their historical failings.

The Germans try to use their historical failings and the lessons they’ve learned to fight injustices today. I applaud them for that. They don’t have the same self loathing that seems to be becoming more predominant in the UK/USA and don’t feel the need erase history because it doesn’t meet modern standards.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say there wasn't a difference, as it's something with it's own unique set of circumstances. Just enquired if it's something they'd consider questioning if they're concerned about the ethics of where their money came from/comes from.

I think while it might be hard pressed to find a company not ethically questionable operating during the time. Some might say you'd struggle to find one quite intrinsically involved in the economic operation of the holocaust as well. They as an organisation had a wee bit of trouble being mature enough to accept their historical failings at times when it came to paying out those stolen insurance policies to survivors and descendants at the time of them teaming up with Bayern.

I think that's something to be applauded as well but not sure it's necessarily right to use terms like 'self-loathing' in this example. We're maybe questioning a team being paid to play in an arena named after an organisation that was entirely involved in the death camps, one of which Kurt Landauer (pretty much their club's modern founder) was placed in and where his family members were murdered. Think we'd find that a bit questionable in the UK/USA without it necessarily being 'self loathing'.
 
Last edited:
Leo_Ger said:
I wouldn't say I was necessarily making a comparison.

Allianz was a major supporter of the Nazi regime. Hitler's first cabinet included the head of Allianz and the Allianz Director-General was Hitler's economic minister during the Third Reich.

After Reichskristallnacht in 1938, he was responsible for the creation and enforcement of a Nazi policy to block insurance payments to Jews for their damaged and stolen property and instead direct the payments directly to the state. Allianz records show that the company benefited by stealing the amount due for these claims before they made the payments to the government, and recorded it as "business as usual." The organisation cooperated closely with the Nazi government to locate the life insurance policies of those who were sent to death camps.

Allianz insured the property and personnel of Nazi concentration camps, including the infamous Auschwitz extermination camp, and the Dachau concentration camp. Allianz also insured the engineers working at the IG Farben Company, which supervised the manufacture of the Zyklon B cyanide gas used at Auschwitz and other camps to systematically exterminate Jews and others during the Holocaust. Since, as part of the procedure of issuing the insurance policies, Allianz Group inspectors would have toured the camps to make a detailed assessment of the high risks involved at every step of the operation, they were fully aware of the purpose of the camps.

Bayern is a club with Jewish origins so having an organisation who profiteered and was significantly involved in the organisation of the holocaust as a major sponsor and holding the naming rights of your stadium seems quite ethically questionable if you're challenging that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

There are literally hundreds of brands linked to the Holocaust mate; Nestle, Mercedes; Siemens. You could go on for ages. I agree with your point that if you dig deep enough you'll find dirt. Germany understands that.

Allianz isn't currently flaunting a country with a dreadful human rights record either. The sponsorships are incomprable.
 
prenzlauerbear said:
There are literally hundreds of brands linked to the Holocaust mate; Nestle, Mercedes; Siemens. You could go on for ages. I agree with your point that if you dig deep enough you'll find dirt. Germany understands that.

Allianz isn't currently flaunting a country with a dreadful human rights record either. The sponsorships are incomprable.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of your first point mate. That's why I haven't made reference to Adidas, Volkswagen etc

You'll struggle for where I made a direct comparison between the sponsorships.

This is my intial comment:

Leo_Ger said:
Good on them.

If going down this route though, are they happy to continue having Allianz as a sponsor and naming rights of the stadium?
Click to expand...

Bayern neglected and ignored their Jewish history and origins for so long. In the time period where they did they got into bed with Allianz in particular to the extent of playing in a stadium called the Allianz arena.

In recent years, more attention has been shown to their Jewish origins and sections of the fanbase have embraced and honoured Kurt Landauer. I just asked a question that if their fan groups are going down the route of questioning the ethics of sponsors if they'll remain happy with that. It's entirely relevant in relation to the club's history, Kurt Landauer's history and Allianz' history.
 
Leo_Ger said:
I'm aware of your first point mate. That's why I haven't made reference to Adidas, Volkswagen etc

You'll struggle for where I made a direct comparison between the sponsorships.

This is my intial comment:



Bayern neglected and ignored their Jewish history and origins for so long. In the time period where they did they got into bed with Allianz in particular to the extent of playing in a stadium called the Allianz arena.

In recent years, more attention has been shown to their Jewish origins and sections of the fanbase have embraced and honoured Kurt Landauer. I just asked a question that if their fan groups are going down the route of questioning the ethics of sponsors if they'll remain happy with that. It's entirely relevant in relation to the club's history, Kurt Landauer's history and Allianz' history.
Click to expand...
They aren’t currently going along with Nazi beliefs though are they? Unlike Qatar with Human Rights. I’m sure Schickeria will have gone over this.

www.espn.com

Bayern ultras given prestigious award for Landauer work

Bayern Munich ultra group Schickeria have received the prestigious Julius Hirsch Award for bringing the club's former president Kurt Landauer back into the spotlight.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 
Wazza said:
They aren’t currently going along with Nazi beliefs though are they? Unlike Qatar with Human Rights. I’m sure Schickeria will have gone over this.

www.espn.com

Bayern ultras given prestigious award for Landauer work

Bayern Munich ultra group Schickeria have received the prestigious Julius Hirsch Award for bringing the club's former president Kurt Landauer back into the spotlight.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...

No one said they were nor did I say they aren't right to question the Qatari sponsorship.

The link just acknowledges something I referenced in my post.
 
Leo_Ger said:
No one said they were nor did I say they aren't right to question the Qatari sponsorship.

The link just acknowledges something I referenced in my post.
Click to expand...
And I am saying when they did that they will have questioned this, as opposed to leaving it till now. Do you think this will have passed them and every critic by?
 
Leo_Ger said:
I wouldn't say there wasn't a difference, as it's something with it's own unique set of circumstances. Just enquired if it's something they'd consider questioning if they're concerned about the ethics of where their money came from/comes from.

I think while it might be hard pressed to find a company not ethically questionable operating during the time. Some might say you'd struggle to find one quite intrinsically involved in the economic operation of the holocaust as well. They as an organisation had a wee bit of trouble being mature enough to accept their historical failings at times when it came to paying out those stolen insurance policies to survivors and descendants at the time of them teaming up with Bayern.

I think that's something to be applauded as well but not sure it's necessarily right to use terms like 'self-loathing' in this example. We're maybe questioning a team being paid to play in an arena named after an organisation that was entirely involved in the death camps, one of which Kurt Landauer (pretty much their club's modern founder) was placed in and where his family members were murdered. Think we'd find that a bit questionable in the UK/USA without it necessarily being 'self loathing'.
Click to expand...

I’ve lived in Germany for over 2 years at this point so I think I have a more rounded opinion on the subject than yourself mate.
 
Chester Loyal said:
I’ve lived in Germany for over 2 years at this point so I think I have a more rounded opinion on the subject than yourself mate.
Click to expand...

If your picture is where you're living mate, I lived 4 years in the same city in Heimfeld, Eilbek and Altona.

My girlfriend grew up and lived there for 25+ years. Last there to see her family in August.
 
Leo_Ger said:
If your picture is where you're living mate, I lived 4 years in the same city in Heimfeld, Eilbek and Altona.

My girlfriend grew up and lived there for 25+ years. Last there to see her family in August.
Click to expand...

It’s a fantastic city mate. If that’s your experience of the place then I take back my previous point.

I don’t really want to get into German politics/life on this thread but one thing I’d say is that the Germans do their football properly.
 
Chester Loyal said:
I’ve lived in Germany for over 2 years at this point so I think I have a more rounded opinion on the subject than yourself mate.
Click to expand...
Leo_Ger said:
If your picture is where you're living mate, I lived 4 years in the same city in Heimfeld, Eilbek and Altona.

My girlfriend grew up and lived there for 25+ years. Last there to see her family in August.
Click to expand...
I lived in Munich for 2. Spent enough time in Hamburg over the last 20 years to know it’s very different to Munich mind. I’m sure anyone who has similar experience will know Bavarians are a little more refined and snobby! German fans are losing grip on Football a bit, why things like this are so important. I’m a member at Hansa Rostock, 95 euros a year and I’m often getting emails regarding votes on Club issues. Red Bull took the absolute piss out of 50plus1 and now this at the biggest Club in the land, going to be interesting to see how it pans out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Latest posts

Back
Top