PolmontLoyal1872
Well-Known Member
Some on here and twitter are going down the injured player route with Gio, gets better the longer they’re out or in Gios case away.
He wasn’t making the signings Ross Wilson had full controlInside 10 months he collected nineteen less points than Celtic in the league when he was starting from a position of six points clear, failed to beat them in the league & suffered two brutal pastings at the hands of them, the second one considerably worse than the first one.
There was a 10 point swing in his first six months. We were then 9 behind them by Novermber when he was sacked.
He needed to go. We weren't winning the league with him.
Not getting on board with the revisionism being spun. Maybe if Gio was a bit more forceful and demanding then he'd have got what he wanted. The fact he went along with it just tells me the guy wasn't cut out to be our manager long term.
Definitely. People wanting to blame his demise on recruitment and lack of spending should go back and watch the 1-1 game against Livingston as typical of the way he wanted to play football. Constant deep crosses into a heavily marked loan striker, and when that didn’t happen it was the infamous horseshoe. Gio should always be remembered for his playing success and the Europa League run. He’s a great guy. But he absolutely needed to go.Inside 10 months he collected nineteen less points than Celtic in the league when he was starting from a position of six points clear, failed to beat them in the league & suffered two brutal pastings at the hands of them, the second one considerably worse than the first one.
There was a 10 point swing in his first six months. We were then 9 behind them by Novermber when he was sacked.
He needed to go. We weren't winning the league with him.
Not getting on board with the revisionism being spun. Maybe if Gio was a bit more forceful and demanding then he'd have got what he wanted. The fact he went along with it just tells me the guy wasn't cut out to be our manager long term.
Met him, his wife, and young family walking around the Amsterdam canals.FROM TONIGHTS EVENING TIMES
DAVE VOS joined a jubilant Giovanni van Bronckhorst on the pitch at Philips Stadium, having helped mastermind a two-legged win over Dutch giants PSV and author another magical European journey.
Privately, however, the former Rangers assistant and his boss knew this could also be a blessing in disguise depending on circumstances. The squad they’d taken to Seville and past PSV in that 2021 Champions League qualifying playoff was not yet ready to compete at the elite level of European football while fighting on multiple fronts domestically. No further transfer additions were made following the 1-0 win in Eindhoven and a painful group stage was on the horizon.
“I think if the recruitment was a bit better to bring in some players we thought were a direct possibility to sign, it would have increased our chance to be successful in the way we wanted to play,” Vos says.
“If you ask me honestly, I don’t think we would have played that differently in the Champions League. Napoli were champions of Italy that year, Liverpool were Liverpool and Ajax had won six out of six in the Champions League group stage the season before. Rangers as a football club weren’t ready to play first or second place in the Champions League group. But we were building towards that and I think with time, if we had a year longer, we could’ve developed in that direction.”
The start made by Van Bronckhorst kept Rangers firmly at the top of the Scottish Premiership heading into the winter break with eight wins from eight. Even if there were growing pains as a change in playing style ensued.
“It was a great group of players, but it isn’t your own group. Of course, because of [Steven] Gerrard and everything that happened there, it was the players he chose. We needed to work with everybody who was there,” Vos continues.
“You felt a connection from players and staff and support staff directly. The integration was really fast and we won the first eight or nine games in a row.
“That helps the process of how you want to play but we had our own details that were different from the former coaching staff. I remember that we were due to play the Old Firm on the 29 December [before the winter break was brought forward].
For us, in that moment we had a real flow and Celtic didn’t. There was a gap of five points or so. When I look back if we had played that game against Celtic in December we were in a much better position because of how many points we could’ve gone ahead.”
Although Rangers lost hold of the league title in season 2021/22, they so nearly grasped a trophy of far greater value. The Europa League trophy was penalties away from returning to Ibrox as a run masterminded by Van Bronckhorst and Vos allowed Ibrox to dream over an intoxicating threemonth spell.
Rangers saw off Borussia Dortmund, RB Leipzig, Braga and Red Star Belgrade to set up a final with Eintracht Frankfurt in Seville. With their aggressive approach borne out of a 3-0 Old Firm defeat soon after the winter break. Attempts to explain the magic often fall short, but the simplicity of Vos’s sentence captures the essence.
“Ibrox? You cannot explain everything that happened [on those nights] to somebody who was not there. I told my friends you have to come over. I can tell you about it, but you need to feel it,” he says.
“One of the most important parts [of the European run] came after the first Old Firm we lost. We were too ‘in the middle’ of the pitch and not pressing opponents all over the pitch. From that moment we made a decision together – we will press the opponent all the way.
“When we played Dortmund away, you can make two decisions. You can drop into a block and counter attack but we made a decision together, and from Gio it was a really brave one, to just press the opposition high.”
The most memorable night of all came against RB Leipzig as a 3-1 win sent Van Bronckhorst’s side to Seville. The game came two days on from the shock passing of Jimmy Bell, Rangers’ legendary kitman and club figure. In an emotionally charged stadium goals from James Tavernier, Glen Kamara and John Lundstram sealed a piece of history.
Like Gio got cash?Beat Malmo and Gerrard would have got cash, two shite performances.
There is one major difference between Beale and Gio.There’s a good argument to say we need to buck this cycle of jettisoning managers every autumn, but is he really going to survive if he’s lost the opening OF clash and we’re several points behind already come the autumn?
There were calls to give Gio more time, even Beale to a lesser extent, but results dictated that the board had to act.
I doubt it’ll be any different this year if Clement can’t significantly improve our football.
And to be replaced by Beale. GVB a World Cup Finalist and captain, CL winner, PL winner, multi La Liga winner. He won two trophies as a manager in a better and more competitive league. He won our first SC on over 10 years, took us to a European final through footballing merit and was inches away from winning it.Sometimes both sides are right. Gio failed domestically against dross but deserved to be backed far more than he was in the summer of 2022 for obvious reasons.
While he may have received decent financial investment prior to PSV, how much say he had in who came in is highly debatable. We all said he should have been backed further after that miracle in Eindhoven and it's pretty well accepted now that the board at the time f****d it.
I've been round the houses with this one, but with the benefit of hindsight, I feel a great degree of sympathy for Gio.
Can you or someone else help me out?Agree with everything he says
Injuries, winter break, lack of squad investment all played a massive part
The board panicked and we are worse off now. They should have been stronger and allowed him the season at the very least
Gio shouldn't have been sacked
He was pretty well backed i thought, remind me who he bought.Like Gio got cash?
Beale being useless doesn't change the fact that GVB was nothing close to good enough as our manager and few have suggested Beale was any betterAnd to be replaced by Beale. GVB a World Cup Finalist and captain, CL winner, PL winner, multi La Liga winner. He won two trophies as a manager in a better and more competitive league. He won our first SC on over 10 years, took us to a European final through footballing merit and was inches away from winning it.
The mind boggles . .
What was it that he didn't get?Like Gio got cash?
Again, what was it GVB didn't get?Met him, his wife, and young family walking around the Amsterdam canals.
Boxing Day ‘22?
Seemed surprised as did his wife that I approached to talk to him, and that I even recognized him. We talked briefly, and I tried to thank him and Gio for everything they gave, in that short space of time .Told him I felt they were treated poorly towards the end.And that was long before I even found out they had done the dirty on Gio.
He then added he was disappointed considering what they had achieved, they weren’t given more time to build their own team.
Something he reiterates above.
I agreed then, and couldn’t agree more to this day.
I just hope Clement gets the full backing that Dave and Gio sadly didn’t receive.
I can’t but help, have my doubts.
Ajax away was the turning point for Gio with his post match comments saying how they can't compete at this level, having a bit of a dig at the board as well. It was a losing battle from there. Recruitment was absolutely shocking, Ross Wilson needed to shoulder a lot of the blame for it.Inside 10 months he collected nineteen less points than Celtic in the league when he was starting from a position of six points clear, failed to beat them in the league & suffered two brutal pastings at the hands of them, the second one considerably worse than the first one.
There was a 10 point swing in his first six months. We were then 9 behind them by Novermber when he was sacked.
He needed to go. We weren't winning the league with him.
Not getting on board with the revisionism being spun. Maybe if Gio was a bit more forceful and demanding then he'd have got what he wanted. The fact he went along with it just tells me the guy wasn't cut out to be our manager long term.
I don't even think it was I would seriously hazard a guess we brought in more than we spent slight advice even.Not sure what ‘the talk’ is, but with the likelihood of no CL money I don’t see there being anything other than a modest budget for Clement this summer (even Beale’s net spend was only around £5m in the end, was it not?).
Unless Koppen is something of a genius in the transfer market and Clement proves he’s better than the one trick pony he’s looked these past couple of months, I think it’ll be difficult to attract the sort of quality we need to turn this around the way we want.
It’s easy at this point in time to say we just need to persevere with him, but come the autumn if we’re seven points behind again and still without a win against them, it’s going to take balls of steel from the board to stick with it amidst the customary hysteria and baying hordes.
You get the group stage money for cl pretty quickly after the draw is made for group stages its the points gained/tv/additional rounds that come laterOne of problems is that the final qualifier is relatively close to the end of the transfer window. There is such a small timeframe in knowing whether your budget is going to be much better or worse. It makes planning in advance that bit more difficult, then a mad rush to get players in if you qualify, if they are still available that is.
The other aspect is that you don’t get all that money upfront, so the actual payoff for qualifying and utilising it is pushed onto the following season.
The injuries done Gio as well, which may have been partly self inflicted. I think we had 10 players out at one stage.
...but we were, and still are to a lesser extent, transitioning from having our losses underwritten year on year.You get the group stage money for cl pretty quickly after the draw is made for group stages its the points gained/tv/additional rounds that come later
Gio domestic league form was poor that's the reason he lost his job,I think most of that is really fair from him tbh.
But Gio was 9 points behind Celtic by November after blowing a 6 point lead the season before. That's always going to end a Rangers manager. Rightly or wrongly, everything is a competition with them. That's the unique thing about Scottish football and why it's really important to get the measure of Old Firm games asap. Phil now needs to hurry up with that as well.
Beat Malmo and Gerrard would have got cash, two shite performances.
Should've been ample for Malmö.Instead, he got Sakala and Lundstram on free transfers before Champions League qualifiers. That worked well
How many points did the yahoos drop in that period? I don't know the answer but it wasn't many. Gio was unlucky to be up against that level of consistency.Inside 10 months he collected nineteen less points than Celtic in the league when he was starting from a position of six points clear, failed to beat them in the league & suffered two brutal pastings at the hands of them, the second one considerably worse than the first one.
There was a 10 point swing in his first six months. We were then 9 behind them by Novermber when he was sacked.
He needed to go. We weren't winning the league with him.
Not getting on board with the revisionism being spun. Maybe if Gio was a bit more forceful and demanding then he'd have got what he wanted. The fact he went along with it just tells me the guy wasn't cut out to be our manager long term.
Yes what you are saying is true, he did have money. Ridvan,etc.Can you or someone else help me out?
Why are so many of our fans parroting this lie that GVB had nothing to spend?
GVB got the same that Beale got and the same budget Gerrard had most of his summers.
We spend around £15m each summer & euro progress (or not) doesn't change that.
Yeah but it was Malmo though, at home, with a man advantage for most of the game. It was in keeping with other shite performances that were to come though. Lost to Dundee United, and spilled points at home to each of Motherwell, Hearts and Aberdeen. All of that only 11 games into the league campaign, pretty shite in all honesty although I feel the early part of that season has been revised quite heavily since then.Losing Kamara and Roofe to suspension didn't help and of course Morelos chose to overstay his holiday in Columbia
I don’t know about full control, but there’s no way a vanity sighing like Ramsey was Gio’s choice. That was all down to the swaggering dwarf and his own ego.He wasn’t making the signings Ross Wilson had full control
Gerrard says he was promised money to improve the winning team the board reneged on the deal. Gerrard got the hump (rightly) and we are now where we are. The fact that post #55 Park left with his cash (as was his right) proved that Gerrard was right.Beat Malmo and Gerrard would have got cash, two shite performances.
If your relying on Tom Lawrence in c league your fucked. Your also fucked if you tell the squad they can't compete before a balls kicked. Your also fucked if you play a 1d horse shoe.“During the whole run we knew in every game if we could come back with a result to Ibrox then anything is possible,” Vos adds.
“I still have goosebumps from Leipzig. It was one of the most unbelievable experiences I’ve ever had on the pitch. Everyone felt we needed to do it for him and Jimmy’s family. It was an unbelievable experience. I still get all the clips in my head. Ibrox was bouncing.”
That rearranged 3-0 Old Firm defeat, which followed dropped points against Aberdeen and Ross County in the early weeks of 2022, would ultimately cost Rangers the title. Something they still, two years on, have been unable to regain. The gap inherited from Gerrard at the top of the Scottish Premiership would begin to evaporate.
Rangers still ended the 2021/22 campaign with a Scottish Cup triumph and an impressive win in the Old Firm semi-final at Hampden, following two significant defeats against Ange Postecoglou’s side in the league. When they saw off PSV over two legs to achieve another minor miracle on the continent the optimism carried into the 2022/23 season, despite surrendering the league title, appeared vindicated. But then, in the space of a week at the start of September, Rangers lost 4-0 to Ajax and Celtic. It was a four-day period Van Bronckhorst would never recover from and for many watching from the outside, the byproduct of a summer transfer window that failed to take Rangers forward.
“I think you are right,” Vos says when asked if he felt more could’ve been done in the summer window to strengthen the squad – especially after Champions League football was secured.
“The next season for me, the outcome of the transfer window wasn’t what we had hoped for. If we had won in Seville we’d have gone directly into the Champions League group stage as a pot one team. That would’ve meant something for the group but also in terms of getting new players in.
“Now we had to deal with the Champions League. We had a big run to reach the group stage. Everyone knew that USG were really good and PSV are a really strong opponent. The fact that we managed to get into the group stage was unbelievable. At that moment Gio and I said together ‘Ok, this could be something great to play in the Champions League’ – but in the end, we struggled.
“If you looked at the financial situation of the club, the whole squad was bought for around £18m – we played the Champions League and Europa League final with that squad.”
Calvin Bassey, who Van Bronckhorst inherited as a back-up left-back, was sold to Ajax for north of £20m in the summer of 2022 following his meteoric rise as a centre-back in that Europa League campaign. Joe Aribo, who scored in the final, also departed for Southampton. Vos holds those two players as key examples of figures who weren’t replaced in time for that tumultuous start to the season, both in terms of quality and durability.
“Calvin [Bassey] played a massive part in everything we did,” he emphasises. “If you want to press up high all over the pitch like we did, Calvin had a central role. It was only possible to play like we did because of him.
“We wanted Ian Maatsen really badly who is now in the Champions League final with Dortmund. We wanted a couple of those players who you know can fit into the style of football you want to play.
“Overall our squad lacked depth and struggled with injuries. I think VOS’S tone is tinged with no malice but simply regret. As aforementioned Rangers’ Champions League group was unforgiving, their injury list seismic and schedule relentless. The former assistant insists that the team still intended to approach games in the same manner as the season before during all those memorable European victories but lacked the athleticism and depth to do so. No game epitomised his point like the 7-1 defeat at home to Liverpool. Rangers took the lead and started the game well but after losing Connor Goldson to a costly injury, things quite literally fell apart. That was a microcosm of the start of the season.
“Normally if you play in the Champions League you have a week off between games but because of the World Cup our games were every midweek,” he explains.
“Players like Connor were used to playing 60 games. Joe Aribo had played in something like 66 matches the season before. When players like Joe and Calvin left us it was really important to get new players in. Tom Lawrence’s injury was really, really significant for us in that sense.
“We saw the intensity and quality of the Champions League was too early for the team we had. We still wanted to do the same things and I think at Ibrox we played really well against Napoli, the first half against Liverpool was unbelievable. In parts of the game we did really well but if you see the level of the opponent it is these small details that are so important.”
Domestically, Van Bronckhorst’s football was never able to energise and excite like a Thursday night. How was it that in the same fortnight, Rangers defeated Borussia Dortmund 6-4 on aggregate they also dropped points against Motherwell and Dundee United?
“There is a big difference domestically playing every time against a low block,” Vos reasons.
“We missed Tom [Lawrence]. The games against PSV we had [Malik] Tillman and Tom at No.10 and width coming from the wingers. The squad missed creativity on the right- wing to defeat a low block too.
“We struggled domestically in small spaces. If you play in Europe or against bigger teams, they want to play as well. The game’s intensity suited us but domestically when everyone was dropping down playing for set-pieces, counter attacks…we struggled with that.
“Given the results, pressure came on the board. I still felt really connected, at that time the connection was still there with the players. Unfortunately, they made a decision and still, I think it was way too early. If you look at the results we didn’t do well in the Champions League but all those things were connected [to injuries and the summer window]. It was a privilege to be at Rangers and be part of the journey. Ibrox is something unbelievable. For me [the decision to sack Van Bronckhorst] felt too early.”
If the argument is about the quality of our business that summer, then that's fair enough. Not to labour the point, but I was just trying to illustrate, which you have as well, that the club don't seem to increase summer transfer budgets if we outperform in Europe, or on player sales.Yes what you are saying is true, he did have money. Ridvan,etc.
I think he was probably looking more reinvestment though for the Bassey and Aribo sales. Other factors such as FFP were still holding us back though so it was tricky to spend more
Both Gio and Vos have publicly mentioned Maatsen now which is rare that people come out in public and say
Personally the biggest issue for me was the injury list. It was incredible. If I recall correctly we had Lawrence, Kamara, Davis, Jack, Roofe, Morelos, Kent, Hagi, Matondo, Ridvan, Souttar, Goldson,Davies all out for large spells at the same time
What was the net spend of both?There is one major difference between Beale and Gio.
Beale was given carte blanch to sign the players he wanted, and he still fkuced it up!
Gio.Simply wasn’t!
Should've been ample for Malmö.
We could and probably should have sold one of our assets that summer.
“You might think that.Again, what was it GVB didn't get?
I'm guessing you're saying he didn't get a single one of his own targets & Ross Wilson was a law unto himself?
Gio is a great guy, and whatever else, that Europa League run will probably remain one of my favourite ever moments for the rest of my life.
Ultimately I think he was too nice and lacked that ruthless streak that you need to be a successful Rangers manager. It’s kind of why I think it had to end when it did. The atmosphere was turning post-Liverpool at Ibrox and he didn’t deserve a long, painful period of real hostility from the support.
If he had been in anyway led to believe by the board that CL qualification would mean additional funds, then he should have made sure they kept that promise. He should have been full prepared to go to war with the board to make they delivered. Instead, he himself ended up being the fall guy for their failure to live up to their end of the deal
You tell me.What was the net spend of both?
I find the whole ‘horse shoe’ analogy really fucking tedious.If your relying on Tom Lawrence in c league your fucked. Your also fucked if you tell the squad they can't compete before a balls kicked. Your also fucked if you play a 1d horse shoe.
If we won it there was no sevilleThat was a seismic tie in our recent history.
Win that tie and the last 3 seasons look quite different IMO.
Sell one of your assets to build on a title win two months previously and hope to make Champions League?
New deals for Tav, Jack, Davis, Arfield, McGregor, Defoe that summer - no cash for new players
Our recruitment after the EL final was shambolic, we had decent money to spend after the Bassey sale and brought in players not physically capable of playing in our league
GVB would be well in profit, largely through Bassey thriving when the team changed from GVB's style of play in europeWhat was the net spend of both?
Gio spent pretty much the same as Beale.Had Gio been backed to the level others have, he'd still be here and we'd be in a better place than we are now I suspect. Getting rid of him having not backed him at all and selling some some key players then giving that money to they charlatan Beale was criminal.
The football wasn't good on the eye but he wasn't backed to bring in any of the players needed and forced to shop in the bargain basement.
The jury is still out on Clement for me, hopefully he can build though.
Not Gio.Gio spent pretty much the same as Beale.
You get the group stage money for cl pretty quickly after the draw is made for group stages its the points gained/tv/additional rounds that come later
Again your words.Again, what was it GVB didn't get?
I'm guessing you're saying he didn't get a single one of his own targets & Ross Wilson was a law unto himself?
We actually spent a lot that summer.Yeah think it would have been about £10m or so, even if a healthy chunk of that would be earmarked for squad and management qualifying bonuses. Still not the £30m that some folk think that you get deposited in your bank account the day after qualifying.
The money could perhaps have still have brought in a couple of more good players even allowing for that, but you could only really be spending it straight away if we were in a really healthy position off the park, which we have not been for some time. I think we had already spent about £15m that summer, and had ran at a loss of £20m or the year before, if I recall correctly. That is before you factor in possible FFP implications. After the previous decade, it was imperative that we started to balance the books. In that respect, I can understand why we might have been a bit cagey in spending more that summer.
We should probably have got Kamara away, and maybe one or two others who were losing interest. Three or four of the older players were starting to show their age a bit too. But it is hard to turnover your squad when you have qualifiers so early in the season, you don’t know what your spending budget is going to be, you are holding out for a fair fee for some of your assets, and others are intending to run down their contracts (or in Morelos’s case, are injured).
It's been said before but the one thing any new Rangers manager doesn't have is time,PC needs to get his recruitment right this summer and gets the team off to a flyer at the start of next season if not and loose the first OF game and Rangers are behind by the end of September the inevitable will probably happenMet him, his wife, and young family walking around the Amsterdam canals.
Boxing Day ‘22?
Seemed surprised as did his wife that I approached to talk to him, and that I even recognized him. We talked briefly, and I tried to thank him and Gio for everything they gave, in that short space of time .Told him I felt they were treated poorly towards the end.And that was long before I even found out they had done the dirty on Gio.
He then added he was disappointed considering what they had achieved, they weren’t given more time to build their own team.
Something he reiterates above.
I agreed then, and couldn’t agree more to this day.
I just hope Clement gets the full backing that Dave and Gio sadly didn’t receive.
I can’t but help, have my doubts.