Does clement need to win the final

daviescot said:
Clement doesn't need to win the final - his players do. They could start by not giving Celtic a 2-goal lead. All too often we've made it easy for them so, this time, into them from the off and we'll see how they react to the kind of pressure we're usually under.
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The players don't give %^*& mate. Seriously. We had Lundstram being outrun by Willie fucking Collum at Parkhead, funnelling back as they attacked.
 
Winning SC not important, how can Phil be expected to win with the dross he inherited. Would be nice to do a double this season, at least Timothy did not manage another treble.
 
adidasler said:
I desperately want to win the final but the season is already going down as a failure either way.
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I think if we win the final it'll give us a big momentum boost over the summer - same happened in 2002. During the summer we'll look and reflect on a decent outcome if we have two cups in the bag considering how bad we were in the first few months of the season.
 
WarnbroTavernier said:
Topping the group and then getting pumped out next round isn't what Rangers is all about. It puts you in a good position and it's financially beneficial, but if you get slapped out in the next round then it's blown away. Nothing to crow about anyway
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I’d take the financial benefits for finishing top then getting put out next round (which could happen in any cup competition) over the possibility of not qualifying for the next round at all.
 
Davester said:
The players don't give %^*& mate. Seriously. We had Lundstram being outrun by Willie fucking Collum at Parkhead, funnelling back as they attacked.
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You mention above about him starting 2 in midfield you’ll lose more faith then mention something I think most see in the players. We have 11 players out tonight, we hope some will be back for the final. But if we are 11 players out, we have 1 fit centre half, our only fit wingers being players a lot of the fans don’t seem to rate for different reasons in Wright and McAusland, midfielders who have been out of form most of this season in Lundstram and Raskin, Diomande and Cantwell who has been a non event in the old firms he has played in for the most part. I don’t envy Clement trying to pick 3 for the middle of the park and 2 out wide who the fans won’t complain about.

I’m not saying you’re wrong in that we should play 3 in the middle, I just don’t think it’s as easy as that. My midfield 3 would have been Lundstram, Sterling and Diomande at the weekend, but that would have left us with a Wright or McAusland who just aren’t good enough in wrights case and needs more development in McAuslands
 
giogaddi said:
He doesn't need to but it would certainly help his case. You can already feel the trigger happy section of the support loading up their weapons.

He certainly needs to change up the approach. The midfield was far too easy to play through. Lundstram can't feature. I wouldn't even have him on the bench after his performance on Saturday.
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Lundstram will be straight back in and I very much doubt Clement will mix it up which I don't agree with.

These players don't have it in them to beat Celtic at this stage in the season/their Rangers careers.
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Lundstram will be straight back in and I very much doubt Clement will mix it up which I don't agree with.

These players don't have it in them to beat Celtic at this stage in the season/their Rangers careers.
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I'm hoping he goes with Raskin. Not that I rate him that highly just that he has to be a better option than a legs-gone, uninterested Lundstram.
 
giogaddi said:
I'm hoping he goes with Raskin. Not that I rate him that highly just that he has to be a better option than a legs-gone, uninterested Lundstram.
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Lundstram straight back in after two games suspended, Sterling down the right, 2 man midfield with one of Lawrence or Cantwell in the 10.
 
I think it depends on who, if anyone, is back from injury. If he has the same injury issues while they are at full strength then its difficult and I wouldnt hold it against him. If we have sima, matondo etc back and we then field the incorrect team again and lose, thats when questions deserve to be asked.
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Lundstram will be straight back in and I very much doubt Clement will mix it up which I don't agree with.

These players don't have it in them to beat Celtic at this stage in the season/their Rangers careers.
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I’m not so sure he will be. He is off on a free in a couple of weeks, if Raskin does well in the final 2 games I can’t see Clement dropping him, I think Lundstram has kicked his last ball for us.
 
Can’t believe just how far we’ve fallen since the last euro game. Players waltzing about like farts in a trance, not killing off diddy teams, rumours about players leaving, manager starting to talk guff, press pish talk about “best team in league”, players otherwise solid with no injury going out the team and replacements also going out injured.

It hurts me so much to again have had a credible challenge unpicked by circumstances of our own doing.

On and off the park we are a fucking shambles.
 
As long as we make a contest of it I'll be backing him even if we lose, though if it was a heavy defeat, might start to question him.

I'm impressed by his pedigree & we can't afford to keep changing managers every season.

We do have an impatient fan base though so I know some will turn if we lose.

Very much doubt the board will be even remotely considering sacking him if we lose.
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Lundstram will be straight back in and I very much doubt Clement will mix it up which I don't agree with.

These players don't have it in them to beat Celtic at this stage in the season/their Rangers careers.
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100% convinced Clement won't play Lundstram in the final, Injuries/suspensions aside obviously.

Might be on the bench, might even come on but I don't think the manager is daft enough to play him from the start.

He knows the feeling of anger permeating through the support. Starting Lundstram and losing the final instantly kills a shedload of credit he has and probably doesn't get back.
 
he might be the Belgian Alex McLeish. has the initial impact of motivating under performing players, but could really build his own team.

I don't know how much we paid for the Silva loan and what other options were, but really it wasn't a great success. None of the signings in January have had enough of an impact.
 
If Raskin performs well in the next two games and then he brings Lund straight back in when he's leaving after that shambles on Sat then i think a few more doubts would be raised.

For me look at the mess we were in when PC joined us he needs to be allowed and backed in the summer and I hope Koppen has a plan cause we dont have a Billionaire Sugar Daddy pumping money in to use we dont even have a rich uncle slipping us a sneaky fiver
 
No, it's about how he approaches it that matters. Pedro got spanked by them playing a gung-ho system that was doomed to fail, weeks later he did it again & got an even bigger tanking. Showed he wasn't learning & couldn't adapt.

In some ways the same test for Phil, because he's tried the same system against them & conceded 5 in 2 games. Has to show everyone that he can be pragmatic.
 
Flying Fullback said:
As long as we make a contest of it I'll be backing him even if we lose, though if it was a heavy defeat, might start to question him.

I'm impressed by his pedigree & we can't afford to keep changing managers every season.

We do have an impatient fan base though so I know some will turn if we lose.

Very much doubt the board will be even remotely considering sacking him if we lose.
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its how we lose though. we have went 2-0 down in the last games. we haven't been ahead in any game. A last minute deflected winner is one thing, but a systemic failure of the teams structure is another
 
temperance said:
WE need to win it, a cup double after the mess Beale left us in would be half decent.
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I said yes to the question, it wasn't a reflection on the manager though. It is a pretty decent starting point for a new season, two cups in the bag.
His team selection will be interesting if we can get one or two bodies back.
 
midlandbear said:
I won’t say it
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Mate, you’re delusional. He was very good today. 3 days after the biggest game of our season.

He’s he only lasted 60 minutes. If he could have given us 45 on Saturday we’d have had a better chance of going in at half time ahead.

But nah, he was being saved for the Dundee game.
 
JCDarcheville said:
Mate, you’re delusional. He was very good today. 3 days after the biggest game of our season.

He’s he only lasted 60 minutes. If he could have given us 45 on Saturday we’d have had a better chance of going in at half time ahead.

But nah, he was being saved for the Dundee game.
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I never said he was being saved for Dundee, of course that wouldn’t make sense.

He was not fit to start at Parkhead, end of.
I’m not just pulling this out of my arse, I’m telling you this as a matter of fact.
 
midlandbear said:
I never said he was being saved for Dundee, of course that wouldn’t make sense.

He was not fit to start at Parkhead, end of.
I’m not just pulling this out of my arse, I’m telling you this as a matter of fact.
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what does “not for enough to start” to you?

He was fit enough to play and play well, we know that because he did.

He was then fit enough for an hour 3 days later.

Not fit enough to start is not a thing, you’re fit to play (and that can be a certain number of minutes), or not.

Last night only further proved it to be a poor assessment by our management. Saturday was an all hands moment.
 
JCDarcheville said:
what does “not for enough to start” to you?

He was fit enough to play and play well, we know that because he did.

He was then fit enough for an hour 3 days later.

Not fit enough to start is not a thing, you’re fit to play (and that can be a certain number of minutes), or not.

Last night only further proved it to be a poor assessment by our management. Saturday was an all hands moment.
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You have absolutely no idea of his fitness assessment of the manager and medical team, none whatsoever, but are using it as an excuse to bash the manager…..just because.

You also have no idea at all if it would have made any difference, probably not much, if any at all in all honesty.
 
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Barrymoped said:
You have absolutely no idea of his fitness assessment of the manager and medical team, none whatsoever, but are using it as an excuse to bash the manager…..just because.

You also have no idea at all if it would have made any difference, pro or much, if any at all in all honesty.
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I have an idea that he played on Saturday and last night, but we started with Barisic. Who has been proven weak in and out of possession vs Celtic for years.

Whatever the fitness assessment was, he was clearly assessed as fit enough to play, as he did!

It’s only one of a few bizarre decisions by the manager on Saturday. Had be made better decision, we were by no means guaranteed to win the game, but at least we’d have had the best possible chance.
 
JCDarcheville said:
I have an idea that he played on Saturday and last night, but we started with Barisic. Who has been proven weak in and out of possession vs Celtic for years.

Whatever the fitness assessment was, he was clearly assessed as fit enough to play, as he did!

It’s only one of a few bizarre decisions by the manager on Saturday. Had be made better decision, we were by no means guaranteed to win the game, but at least we’d have had the best possible chance.
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The medical department said that Yilmaz had 45 minutes of football in him for the Dundee game
 
I think k last night showed how much more fluent and quicker rangers are with Raskin in insteadof Lundstam. Sure he wasn't perfect but h als8 hasn't played a lot of football. A midfield 3 of Raskin, Diamonde and Cantwell(Sterling if fit maybe( will do for me against that mob.
 
Richy1471 said:
I think k last night showed how much more fluent and quicker rangers are with Raskin in insteadof Lundstam. Sure he wasn't perfect but h als8 hasn't played a lot of football. A midfield 3 of Raskin, Diamonde and Cantwell(Sterling if fit maybe( will do for me against that mob.
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No treacle toes Lundstram in the team slowing everything down to his pedestrian pace, playing tippy tappy crap with the defence and we scored 5 goals.

It’s no coincidence. He’s been suffocating our style of play all season and hopefully will never play again.
 
The Huguenot said:
Yes, but won't, as he will stick with his failed formation and players.
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I think that he'd prefer to have Danilo, Sima, Cortes, Jack (re long-term injuries;I'll just stop there) available.

And maybe have other guys fully match fit like Balogun, Ridvan, Sterling, Goldson,Souttar, Roofe (again, I Could go on but it's boring ~ and obviously none of these players would've made a difference ).
 
JCDarcheville said:
what does “not for enough to start” to you?

He was fit enough to play and play well, we know that because he did.

He was then fit enough for an hour 3 days later.

Not fit enough to start is not a thing, you’re fit to play (and that can be a certain number of minutes), or not.

Last night only further proved it to be a poor assessment by our management. Saturday was an all hands moment.
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Not fit enough to start is not a thing?
Yeah I think we should end this conversation now.

You’re either at it, or so far disconnected from the professional game that its pointless talking to you about it.
 
He has picked up a squad that aren’t as good as Celtic. Sacking him because, after 1 transfer window, he hasn’t been able to beat a better team would be wrong. Tactics only get you so far - this is a bad team. A midfield that would struggle to get on their bench.

He gets the summer to put his own stamp on the squad, and after that there are no excuses. Having said that, its an awful position to be in, as unless we start like a train next season he is going to be under massive pressure to go.
 
He won't be sacked if he doesn't win it but that would be no wins in 4 (?) in Old Firms so that for me would see him under huge pressure for next season and would see the majority of fans (me included) losing a lot of faith in him.
 
Two parts to this for me if we win or lose narrowly but having set up differently and he shows he has learned lessons then I can live with that.
However if we set up with a midfield that lets them run all over us then it’s major alarm bells for me.
 
If we lose the final there will be the usual reaction but if we see we have tried something different and put in the effort then fair dos.
If we play shite and win we will all be delighted as long as it doesn't mean a lot of these players will still be here next season.
 
Northumbeara said:
Two parts to this for me if we win or lose narrowly but having set up differently and he shows he has learned lessons then I can live with that.
However if we set up with a midfield that lets them run all over us then it’s major alarm bells for me.
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Never seen your post mate, more or less what I said as well.
 
This is Phil's future.

SCF vs them
CLQ vs a top European side
SPFL vs them at the Piggery

His position could literally become untenable by Aug/Sept if he fails these two out of these three huge tests.
 
Ampersand said:
This is Phil's future.

SCF vs them
CLQ vs a top European side
SPFL vs them at the Piggery

His position could literally become untenable by Aug/Sept if he fails these two out of these three huge tests.
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I'm really not sure what repeating this same toxic cycle every autumn is going to achieve.
 
giogaddi said:
I'm really not sure what repeating this same toxic cycle every autumn is going to achieve.
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We either need to stick of twist.

The issue with Gio was the football was dire but he literally got us to the EL final and CL for the first and only time in 12 years or so but he was hung out to dry on the signing front which was pretty grim considering what he achieved in Europe.

Beale "knew the players" and arguably was up against a tougher opponent, but he finished the season well (under no pressure) but had big question marks over his record vs Celtic where he failed in the games that mattered and seemed to be more concerned with their threat than our strenghts.

Come the pre-season, we were dire to watch but we gave him the old "new players to bed in" excuse but a PSV capitulation, loss to Kille, Celtic and Aberdeen meant that the fans had lost faith with him and his time was called to a halt.

PC is now approaching that fork on the road with a sizable portion of fans. If he fails in the SCF, then we will have guys pointing to injuries as an excuse, but some of us noted that our style of play and defensive structure isn't great at all.

Hopefully he gets his players in and we kick on big time next season but the margin for error is lessening with every poor performance and/or defeat.

Quite frankly, our form since March has been absolutely horrendous. Injuries play a part but we should still have had enough to take care of Ross County and Dundee, and if we had, we would be champions, and that smarts.
 
Every season has ups and downs and that’s why a League is the best way to find out who comes out on top, so Clement will ultimately be judged on that.
For me where we finish point wise at the weekend will tell us how far he has taken us forward from Beale.
7 or more points behind the unwashed will be a disaster for him.
He had the same team as Beale with 1 window to improve so it IS fair to judge him on use of that team. Maybe not his players but still the same bunch to improve tactically, it is a decent size squad for Scottish Football.
Hopefully we get a good win at Hearts and a Cup Final win to finish on a high.
Anything less will just leave more questions than answers for me.
 
Not for me.

The win would be incredible, however, we have a skeleton squad who are running on fumes.

I will judge our manager once he has his own squad.

Cortes, Danillo, Jack, et aI would have made a difference, even the opportunity to meaningfully rotate players would've helped
 
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