Factoring a referee into team selection?

bilkobear

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
 
I genuinely think Gerrard went with Defoe today primarily because he and Arfield linked up so well in the last Old Firm clash.
 
Maybe he went with Defoe because Morelos has barely impressed in previous Old Firms.

Whatever the reason, it was the wrong one for me.

He messed with a winning formula and it cost us.
 
bilkobear said:
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
Click to expand...

Who know's mate, you may well be correct, but I just think the manager made an error of judgement today.

Hopefully he learns from it.
 
Alfie is desperate to score v them and perhaps he would’ve lacked composure in front of goal
Two poor attempts all the same
 
Bobby Madden has a mania for red carding Rangers players. Only the Gaffer would know if this influenced his decision not to start the game with Alfie, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.
 
dirtyharry said:
Who know's mate, you may well be correct, but I just think the manager made an error of judgement today.

Hopefully he learns from it.
Click to expand...

Alfie would have changed everything with his presence in the forward area.
He is an easy out ball and he can turn even a 60/40 against him in his favour.
The fact is, Goldson made a huge error for their goal which set the tone for the match, the first goal often being so important.
Had Alfie been on the park that mistake would probably not have been made.

I feel awful about today, but I remain sadly of a mind that Gerrard factored who the referee was and it influenced his team selection.

Stevie the Ger will learn from it, of course, he will.
He must be braver in his team selection, that is the bottom line
 
bilkobear said:
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
Click to expand...
Are you seriously suggesting that Steven Gerrard made his selection based on the referee?
 
It was a factor and shows Gerrard doesn't fully trust Alfie.

You don't drop a centre forward whose scored a last minute winner just a few days ago unless you're severely over thinking things.

Sadly, it was a move motivated by worry, an emotion that seemed to dictate most of the manager's choices today.
 
Leo_Ger said:
It was a factor and shows Gerrard doesn't fully trust Alfie.

You don't drop a centre forward whose scored a last minute winner just a few days ago unless you're severely over thinking things.

Sadly, it was a move motivated by worry, an emotion that seemed to dictate most of the manager's choices today.
Click to expand...

He also played with no wingers......maybe he thought they were going to get red carded too......
 
Installer said:
Are you seriously suggesting that Steven Gerrard made his selection based on the referee?
Click to expand...
I have put it out there as a suggestion.
Morelos should have started, but with his history of getting early yellow cards with the rest of the game to play and being thus neutered to some extent, perhaps Gerrard looked at Madden on the sheet and though, no fck it , I will start with Defoe and keep Alfie for later in the game.

Why else would we leave a player on the bench who in a game like today was so important to the team?
 
DylanGer said:
He also played with no wingers......maybe he thought they were going to get red carded too......
Click to expand...

One of them did but not that it's relevant.

He started with no wingers because he didn't think Ojo or Jones would close off Celtic's passing lanes well enough or retain possession well.

The selection of Aribo as an inside forward was motivated by worry. He was more concerned about what Celtic could do to us than the other way around.
 
Its incredible that people on here still rush to defend the referees..... the problem Rangers have with guys like Madden is massive he is not going to stop cheating us no matter who or where our manager comes from.

The op makes an interesting point the manager should still have picked our best player tho.
 
I'd be surprised if Managers don't know which refs are card happy and those who aren't, and act accordingly.
 
The ref is a joke

How McGregor escaped a booking for his lunge on Arfield or dive is beyond me

Madden sends off Rangers players nearly every game he officiates against us yet let’s they c.uunts away with murder
 
bilkobear said:
I have put it out there as a suggestion.
Morelos should have started, but with his history of getting early yellow cards with the rest of the game to play and being thus neutered to some extent, perhaps Gerrard looked at Madden on the sheet and though, no fck it , I will start with Defoe and keep Alfie for later in the game.

Why else would we leave a player on the bench who in a game like today was so important to the team?
Click to expand...
I agree Morelos should have started but not for one min do I believe he never because of the Referee.
 
bilkobear said:
We often start tough games with no wingers.
Gerrard is happy to let his full-backs give us width.
Click to expand...

Flanagan isn’t the type of player to do that though. He was solid defensively today but never going to provide width going forward. It was a bizarre team selection.
 
Leo_Ger said:
It was a factor and shows Gerrard doesn't fully trust Alfie.

You don't drop a centre forward whose scored a last minute winner just a few days ago unless you're severely over thinking things.

Sadly, it was a move motivated by worry, an emotion that seemed to dictate most of the manager's choices today.
Click to expand...
I agree.
Of course, we don't know for sure, but I think you are on the money.

However, Alfie has been sound this season regarding discipline.
So who did he not really trust?
I have a feeling it was Madden more than Alfie.

Put it this way.
If Alfie had made that McGregor tackle so early in the match, would the cards have remained in Madden's pocket?

If you answer no, then basically you are accepting that Madden referees players differently.
 
bilkobear said:
We often start tough games with no wingers.
Gerrard is happy to let his full-backs give us width.
Click to expand...

Yup that's a great idea against two new full backs in an intimidating atmosphere and with all due respect to Flanagan he's not giving us width........

SG botched it today....everyone sensible I spoke to outside the ground and at the end of the game were baffled.
 
bilkobear said:
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
Click to expand...

I think that the manager expected us to be all over them as we were previously at Ibrox and in the scenario Defoe made more sense. He got it totally wrong.
 
bilkobear said:
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
Click to expand...

I think Alfredo showed that he couldn't be trusted to keep his head in old firm games so I think SG called it correct on this one. Nothing to do with the ref.
It didn't work out and we had an off day but will return.
We are a better team this year but they are still decent so it won't be easy to finish top.
 
DylanGer said:
Yup that's a great idea against two new full backs in an intimidating atmosphere and with all due respect to Flanagan he's not giving us width........

SG botched it today....everyone sensible I spoke to outside the ground and at the end of the game were baffled.
Click to expand...
I agree.
The team selection was wrong.
I am merely trying to get to the bottom of Gerrard's thinking.
He made an unusual team selection and something spooked him.
 
Stewart G said:
I think Alfredo showed that he couldn't be trusted to keep his head in old firm games so I think SG called it correct on this one. Nothing to do with the ref.
It didn't work out and we had an off day but will return.
We are a better team this year but they are still decent so it won't be easy to finish top.
Click to expand...
I don't accept that.
We have kept Morelos as our top striker.
We don't do that and not play him in our biggest games.
He will play against The Filth this season.
Ibrox was a better game for him than The Jimmy Savile Dome regarding pressure.
So why was he not started?
Was it Madden?
Would he have started had it been Robertson or McLean or even Beaton?
 
bilkobear said:
I agree.
The team selection was wrong.
I am merely trying to get to the bottom of Gerrard's thinking.
He made an unusual team selection and something spooked him.
Click to expand...

I think he overthought it......our achilles heel to be frank is we either play well and dominate and score our we struggle.....we can't mix it up......he doesn't want to even consider going direct so it is what it is.

I think he worried our wide players weren't good enough and so he came up with a system that frankly asks a team that tends to overplay....to overplay even more.....that's the only way that would work.....our midfield balance is wrong and taking Aribo out of that even if he has dipped a bit recently was bonkers......

In a basic sense you need to play to your strengths and we didn't do that....Morelos is a player who will work a defence and in a game that is a battle really wtf was SG thinking? Even when we controlled it and we did for short spells the final ball was dire.....we never really asked their goalie to make a save.

If you were at the game you would have seen the players arguing amongst themselves just as we lost the goal and a few minutes later....they clearly couldn't get the system to work......

Also for me Arfield has a key position in the team....even more so with Defoe in....he's frankly not good enough to do that role...he is not technical enough.
 
Today was just another example of
how referees ‘subtly ‘ influence results
of games. McGregor should have been booked early on for a bad tackle
And later for diving. 2 yellows mean
an ordering off. No way he could do
that to a Celtic player.
 
[QUOTE="DylanGer, post: 4269560, member: 1776"
I think he overthought it.....

In a basic sense you need to play to your strengths and we didn't do that....Morelos is a player who will work a defence and in a game that is a battle really wtf was SG thinking? Even when we controlled it and we did for short spells the final ball was dire.....we never really asked their goalie to make a save.
.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

My entire post is to examine what Stevie's thinking was exactly.
There is nothing you mention that he doesn't know.
Yet he made a bizarre selection because something spooked him.

I don't claim to know, I am just speculating that it might well have been Madden.

The most telling moment in the match was the non-booking of McGregor.
An early booking can often neuter a player for the rest of the game.
Had that lunge been made by Alfie, no one in the world will ever convince me that Madden would have kept his cards in his pocket.
 
SG probably showed them too much respect today and done something he usually never does-over complicated it and to be frank if anyone had more pressure on them it wasn't us......just play what's worked for us and see what we get...instead we were firstly trying to adjust then play catch up....
 
SG also knows they are a lot more potent and better than a lot of our support think....that's a factor in what you saw today.
 
DylanGer said:
SG probably showed them too much respect today and done something he usually never does-over complicated it and to be frank if anyone had more pressure on them it wasn't us......just play what's worked for us and see what we get...instead we were firstly trying to adjust then play catch up....
Click to expand...

Definitely. We set up like an away team.
 
I'm sorry, but this is utter tripe.

The pros and cons of starting Defoe will be debated but it's clear that Gerrard is happy to rotate the two of them, especially with Europe added into the equation.

Mid away - Morelos
Hibs home - Defoe
Mid home - Morelos
EF away - Defoe
Warsaw away - Morelos
St Mirren away - Defoe
Warsaw home - Morelos
Celtic home - Defoe

It's a clear pattern that had sweet nothing to do with the choice of referee.
 
bilkobear said:
As soon as Madden was named, a collective sigh emanated from the Rangers support.
Was it deserved?

I don't know, but I did see a set of stats on here that made me wonder just how relevant his presence as the official might be.
Today Gerrard made a decision not to start with our first choice forward, a player who gives you an easy out ball and someone with the physical presence to upset any defence.

I wonder how much Madden's record concerning Morelos played in the starting eleven.
Maybe none, but the simplest explanation of Morelos not starting is that this was indeed a factor of sorts.
Click to expand...
Great point.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
I'm sorry, but this is utter tripe.

The pros and cons of starting Defoe will be debated but it's clear that Gerrard is happy to rotate the two of them, especially with Europe added into the equation.

Mid away - Morelos
Hibs home - Defoe
Mid home - Morelos
EF away - Defoe
Warsaw away - Morelos
St Mirren away - Defoe
Warsaw home - Morelos
Celtic home - Defoe

It's a clear pattern that had sweet nothing to do with the choice of referee.
Click to expand...

I admit I don't know.
How I wish I was as sure as you regarding everything.
 
bilkobear said:
I don't accept that.
We have kept Morelos as our top striker.
We don't do that and not play him in our biggest games.
He will play against The Filth this season.
Ibrox was a better game for him than The Jimmy Savile Dome regarding pressure.
So why was he not started?
Was it Madden?
Would he have started had it been Robertson or McLean or even Beaton?
Click to expand...


I don't think Madden had anything to do with the decision to not start with Alfie.
I'd have started with Defoe as well because of the risk of being down to 10 men but in hindsight this looks like a mistake. People were saying our good play against Celtic was without Alfie so sometimes you can't win.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
In the grand scheme of things I know next to nothing about football.

I know what was going on here, though, and the ref had nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
I am not sure that your wee pattern will last throughout the season.
It has no merit in a football sense.
Morelos should have started today because his physical presence in a game where we were up against a team that would match us player for player was essential in supplying an out ball to relieve pressure and to allow the ball to stick when it was moved forward.
He would also have disrupted their backline with his presence.

His omission was a major decision and I am not convinced it was because the manager has a wee pattern even if you are.

But neither of us will know for sure.

By the way, do you believe managers ever factor referees into their selections?
Genuine question.
 
Stewart G said:
I don't think Madden had anything to do with the decision to not start with Alfie.
I'd have started with Defoe as well because of the risk of being down to 10 men but in hindsight this looks like a mistake. People were saying our good play against Celtic was without Alfie so sometimes you can't win.
Click to expand...
Given Alfie's fantastic start to the season discipline wise, why wouldn't you trust him to continue this today?
 
bilkobear said:
Without going too far back in time.
Eh, ... let's say Thursday night.
Oh and Ojo isn't an out and out winger, just in case you think he is.
Click to expand...
Lol.

You’re making stuff up again as per. So “often” not playing a winger is actually one match where we did in fact have a winger.

Never change bilko.
 
bilkobear said:
I am not sure that your wee pattern will last throughout the season.
It has no merit in a football sense.
Morelos should have started today because his physical presence in a game where we were up against a team that would match us player for player was essential in supplying an out ball to relieve pressure and to allow the ball to stick when it was moved forward.
He would also have disrupted their backline with his presence.

His omission was a major decision and I am not convinced it was because the manager has a wee pattern even if you are.

But neither of us will know for sure.

By the way, do you believe managers ever factor referees into their selections?
Genuine question.
Click to expand...

Morelos's physicality would have tested their patchwork defence today. We never gave ourselves a chance with that starting line up. It was a dreadful error by the Manager.
 
If stevie G left out our best player out for the most important fixture of the season so far(lennon must have been delighted) then i think he should let everyone know if it was cos he couldnt trust the referee as hes incredibly biased against us and towards the filth.

I am not saying he did or didnt but i still cant believe it happened and would love to hear his opinion.
 
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